Hi, anyone try an outboard phono section, and if so was it worth the effort? I have one left over from my back room system but it will be a pain to get it into the cabinet....

So, anyone using a high end low output cartridge who has tried an outboard phono section, can you please share your experience? Please let me know cartridge, phono section, and interconnects.

I have a Lyra Helikon cart (which sounds pretty darn good alreaady, going straight into the Outlaw's phono section) and the phono stage is a Herron VTSP-1. I'll keep it if it makes a noticeable improvement, sell it if it doesn't.

Roger

LPSF:

I use a Rolls Bellari VP129 tube phono stage and have been very happy with it (in part, because I love the sound of tubes). Right now, I'm using a Grado Reference Platinum. Interconnects consist of Extreme Phono Crimson from the tonearm to the Bellari; and DH Labs BL-1 to my Outlaw 970.

Regarding low output cartridges, I have used them in the past with other preamps, but they are not an option with the Bellari as it does not have sufficent gain to handle a low output moving coil.

With all due respect to the 2150, I doubt it would be anywhere in the same league as the Herron. If I'm not mistaken, the Herron was over $3,000. And it was also a vacuum tube product, which is going to have a very unique and altogether different sonic signature than the Outlaw. Keeping in mind also the cartridge, you're using, I think it would be safe to say you would not realize the Lyra's full potential through the 2150.

I'm sure the 2150 is a great receiver for the money, but it would be a conspicuously weak link for a $5,000+ analog front end (and that's not even considering the investment you have in turntable / tonearm).

Videodrome, all you say should be true on the principle of you-get-what-you-pay-for, but LP Spinnin' Fool asked for the report of someone who had actually tried listening to a high-end low-output cartridge through an outboard phono section, and could state on the basis of actual experience, not expectation, how the result compared with the 2150's performance. I haven't, but my experience in general is that you always pay for what you get and sometimes - NOT always - get what you paid for. Not the same thing at all. I hope someone else answers the question LSF asked.

I suggest that in the audio realm, and even more with high-end audio, the most rational attitude is one of aggressive, hard-nosed agnosticism: take nothing on faith.

I hear and respect what you're saying psyprof1. True, I have not A/B'd a really high end external phono stage and high end LOMC with the 2150 specifically. However, he also asked "has anyone tried an outboard phono section", to which I answered in the affirmative.

Beyond that, I think it's, well... an unusual comparison. A bit like comparing a Ferrari to a Honda, no? Sure they're both great cars, and they'll get you from point A to point B, but they're engineered with a different performance level in mind and priced accordingly.

I also might add both the Lyra Helikon and the Herron have received glowing reviews in the audio press; so it's not as if the products did not pass muster with some folks who have a pretty keen set of ears.

Lastly, I don't want to sound like a Doubting Thomas, but I don't think there are going to be a whole lot of people out there who would feed a front end like that into a budget priced receiver. So the sort of report from the field Roger's looking for may prove very elusive.

So... I offered up a few comments regarding an experience that will probably come closer than most: my own use of an outboard, tube-based phono section with an Outlaw product.

Thanks for sharing your setup, Videodrome. Yes, such a report would be elusive, I knew that - but I'm not the only completely insane person out in the world. Maybe I was just looking for some company!

Background to this question: I previously had two systems, one in a dedicated room (Helikon/Immedia/Herron phono stage, line stage, M150 amps/Audio Physic Virgos & Luna sub) keeping nearly 3000 records company, and one in our living room (Denon 03D/Rega P3/RR2150/Audio Physic Steps). Because I have a family, the system in the dedicated room was very under-utilized and so was the room, whereas my wife's interior design business was taking over the dining room. Upshot: time to pull the plug on the back room system so my wife could have a reasonable place to work. I moved the Immedia w/Helikon and the Luna sub up to the front room and hooked them up to the Outlaw.

So yes a comparable experience might be hard to come by but I figured I would ask anyway.

Now to bring this to a close, I decided that I was not ready to sell the phono stage just yet, and the need to clean up the house for a big party we were throwing caused me to go ahead and put the Herron in anyway. I was fortunate in that one of the people coming to the party came early and volunteered to help so it went faster than I thought.

Now keep in mind I was fairly happy with the Helikon/Immedia hooked straight into the RR2150. It handled the Helikon's low output just fine (but then the previous cartridge I used was also LO). One LP into this crazy experiment and I can tell you one thing for sure: the Outlaw is *not* as much of a weak link as you might think! Every time I upgrade the front end hardware the system improvements are clearly audible. The Ferrari is not racing the Honda, its *towing* it and the good news is that the Honda is not holding it back much. I had a similar experience when I upgraded the SACD player from the $130 Sony off-the-shelf to the heavily modded ES222 that I brought out of the back room.

So call me crazy, nobody would start out putting together a system like this - it just grew like Topsy - but having it I am enjoying the music quite a bit!

I'm glad things are working out to your liking. Similarly, I am pleasantly surprised with how my 970 in bypass mode is not hamstringing either my digital or analog front ends as I initially feared.

I am envious of your analog set up! And it sounds like, overall, you have a very, very nice system.

I did not intend to bad mouth the 2150, it's just that the combination of equipment and disparity of price points is so unusual. Bottom line is however, that unless you need to liquidate the old system for some spare cash, if it's lying around, you may as well enjoy it! That said, do you think longer term you'll migrate everything from the old, dedicated room into the living room and vice versa?

One more personal anecdote that touches upon your situation, if you'll bear with me...

In my retail days 20 years ago, I had the good fortune of being able to borrow a Koetsu Onyx cartridge from the store that had been lying around gathering dust. I think the cantilever was showing some mileage, but it was otherwise in working order. At the time, I think I had one of the early Adcom preamps and a Dual direct drive turntable. They were about $300 - $500 components then, and here I was sporting a $2,000 cartridge. I remember the Koetsu had such woefully low output for the Adcom's phono section, I had to crank the volume darn near to the max to get any decent output. In addition, the cartridge body was so heavy, I had the counterweight nearly dangling off the back of the tonearm just to balance the cartridge.

So how did it all sound? Pretty lush. But you could tell the cartridge had been really shackled by the limitations of the other equipment. It was sort of like tying one of Evander Hollyfield's arms behind his back -- sure he could put up a good fight -- but it didn't show you what a great boxer he was.

I digress a bit, but I had a somewhat similar vision with your Helikon through the 2150. Glad to hear the mismatch wasn't as bad as mine.

Best,