I know someone who recently bought one of these to go with their new 50in lcd.

After asking my opinion on what to get, from separates, like a sony receiver with a nice set of Mirage speakers (just one of many speaker systems) and a good subwoofer for around $1000 for everything, they decided that a soundbar would be the answer. They had just built a new house and were being lazy. They didn't want to run speakers. I told them a soundbar wasn't really surround and that they would still have to get a reciever and a sub.

Then they decided on a HT in a box, with wireless speakers (which will probably interfere with something in their house). At that point I just gave up and told them to do whatever they wanted.

I no longer give suggestions or opinions because no one really wants them anyway. When they come back to me a year later because something doesn't work or sound good or it's not upgradable, then I can just say hey, what did you expect from a piece of crap.

So here is what they decided to get: The very FIRST thing they told me was that it was like 1000 watts. To which I replied, WOW!!!!!!!

Don't get me wrong, for some people, this system will make them very happy compared to just using the TV speakers but for a few hundred dollars more you could really get something that will last for years and sound much better.

My question is how do they come up with these specs on power? All these companies seem to do it and MOST people who buy them seem to believe it. I really laughed when I saw this.

Also the ratings are at 4 and 6 ohms, does that necessarily mean that the speakers are 4 and 6 ohms also or are they using those to make the specs look more impressive?

Total Power: 1200W
Front: 250W x 2 (1kHz, 6 ohms, 10% THD)
Center: 250W (1kHz, 6 ohms, 10% THD)
Surround: 100W x 2 (100Hz, 4 ohms, 10% THD)
Subwoofer: 250W (100Hz, 6 ohms, 10% THD)

I'm not the best at the finer points of amp design, but I can offer a few quick thoughts. First, check out two of the qualifiers associated with each of those ratings: "Hz" (the specific frequency they are measuring output at) and "THD" (the total harmonic distortion). They are measuring at a single frequency (1000Hz for front channels and 100Hz for the sub and surrounds) and at 10% THD.

Now, look at the specs for one of Outlaw's amps. I'll use my Model 7500 as an example. It is rated at 200Wx5 at 8 ohms, going to 300W at 4 ohms, and is measured from 20Hz to 20,000Hz (the full range of normal human hearing) at less than 0.03% THD. Other Outlaw amps are rated at under 0.05% or 0.08%, depending on the amp. Even the Model 1070 (which, as a receiver, shoe-horns its amps into a smaller chassis that is shared with other systems) is rated at less than 0.08% THD over the full 20Hz to 20,000Hz range and with all channels driven. The HTiB is measuring at 333 times more distortion than the Model 7500 and at a single frequency point (distortion could be better or worse at other frequencies - we have no way of knowing). That is how they are getting those numbers. TANSTAAFL - There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch.

I'm sure many of us around here are asked to offer advise on purchases from time to time, and it can be tricky. Consumer education (both for operating equipment and for understanding the overall technology associated with our hobby) is something of a pet peeve of mine, and where some people are willing to read, listen, and learn enough to make truly informed decisions, others don't want to - they want the instant gratification of a simple purchase and a simple setup. We do what we can, of course, but we can't win 'em all...

Yeah, it's really amusing when you tell someone you have audio equipment from Outlaw Audio and they stare at you and say Outlaw what? and then say I've never heard of that.
But they've heard of Panasonic and RCA so they must have decent audio equipment.
Maybe that's what killed M&K.
Everybody wants the easy way out. 1 hour setup for instant gratification. No effort of running wires and building a nice system.
From reading the forums, it looks as though the theatre in a box has been extremely popular. Unfortunately when 1 component dies, the rest of it seems useless.

So much of the stuff in my house is from "unknown" brands (Outlaw in my den and dining room; OPPO in my den, dining room, and bedroom; AV123 X-series in the dining room; and even my Paradigm Reference speakers in the den) that I got used to that reaction a long time ago. About the only brands I have in use right now that the typical consumer will have heard of are Panasonic (VCR, DVD recorder, and Blu-ray), Toshiba (HD-DVD), and Zenith (HDTV). What I have found works well is letting folks see and hear the system - there are several folks who have bought gear similar to mine after a demonstration, and it was similar first-hand experience that contributed to some of my earlier purchases when I was getting started in home theater.

The power ratings are even more deceiving. There's a box system sitting at the local Wal-Mart that offers something like 850 watts total power. Of course, that's based on a single channel driven into *3* ohms at 10% distortion at 1 kHz and then adding up the number of channels.

An amp will produce more power at 10% distortion than at some reasonable number. However, the high frequency harmonics will kill a tweeter in short order.

Power goes up with decreasing impedance (resistance) because the amplifier is basically a voltage source. As we all know, power is voltage squared divided by resistance, so as the resistance drops the power goes up. However, as power (and current) rise, the heat load on the output transistors goes up and the demand on the power supply also goes up.

This rating is for driving a single channel. That means that a shared power supply that's capable of maybe 250 watts total output is only feeding one set of output transistors and does not have to share with multiple channels. The rating for all channels driven will be substantially lower.

For various technical reasons, an audio amplifier, especially a cheaply constructed and designed one, is capable of producing somewhat more power in the center of the bandwidth than at the extremes. This also adds to number.

That 850 watt unit, measured while being driven into 8 ohms, all channels driven, 20 Hz to 20 kHz, at less than .1% THD (Total Harmonic Distortion), after a 20 minute warmup at 40% power, *might* make as much as 200 watts. Total.

The 7500 under the same conditions pushes 1000 watts easily.

Back in older days (late 1970's) there were quite a few different power ratings for amplifiers, starting with the most restrictive as above and progressing through IEC, IPP (Instantaneous Peak Power) and ILS (jokingly, If Lightning Strikes). You've got to have the same conditions for the ratings to compare power, and high power sells.

I watched I Am Legend the other night and when Will Smith fired the Claymores I felt the sofa move under me. It's sitting directly on tile laid on the concrete slab foundation.

Power is good.

"Power is Good"

I like that quote!

I saw a photo of their new living room with the furniture.

The sofa has two end tables on either side. That is where the surrounds are sitting. Facing towards the front of the room.

I'll bet it sounds really nice!

Thanks for letting me vent guys.

"Outlaw who". One day I go into an A and B sound store (waiting for my wife in another store). I'm looking at the new Denons. a salesman comes up and starts a conversation. He asks me what I have now, so I tell him. He says "Outlaw who, never heard of them" So I mention that it is an internet direct company. He gets really angry and starts yelling, "you guys buy from the internet and then you call me for help. I can't help you. That is the problem with internet companies, there is no customer support" I don't argue with this guy, just continue to look around. I realize that the saleman has just lost touch with what is going on outside of the store he works in. He did answer one question though, I wondered why a firm like A and B sound was the place to go to in the 70's and 80's. This is where you went for decent equipment. I used to drool when I went in then (no money then!). But now, they appear to going downhill fast - restructuring, more HTIB. I think salesmen will sell the HTIB and consumers will buy them because they just will rely on the corporate marketing and loud pictures on the box (1000 watts). I have been fortunate that when I want to upgrade, someone from work will buy my stuff. One fellow came over once and went from the HTIB to Marantz and ATI. Now he wants to know when I am upgrading. I guess all he had to do was hear the difference without a saleman showing him how "good" a thousand watts sounds like.

I think the biggest problem is that many consumers just don't want to do their homework. With a little research they would be better informed. With the internet it's so easy these days to type in the product and find reviews and forums all over the place. It's easier than ever to make a more informed decision.
Then again some people are just lazy. They don't want to run 20 feet of speaker cable to surrounds because it would mean having to do some work. Instead they opt for the easy way out with wireless or whatever.
After all these years it still amazes me how many people believe that their getting all that power for so little money and don't ask themselves how that can be.

I second that. Most people don't even know what good audio reproduction sounds like. They've been exposed to car audio, boom car audio, box stereo, concert loudspeakers, table radios, and Ipods. None of these come close to the original sound of the music.

Back in the day (Here he goes again) I recall a customer coming in, listening to the equipment playing (Direct to Disc jazz recording, Denon moving coil cartridge in decent tonarm/table, McIntosh C32 preamp, McIntosh MC 2205 amp, and Kef 105s) and asking, "Where's the bass?" He was experiencing bass reproduction about as good as it got at the time but wanted the uncontrolled, boomy sound he was used to.

Last week I had a gentleman tell me that his Bose surround sound system was the best he'd ever heard and that you really couldn't do better. (sigh)

mahansm: I was reading a feature article in the Washington Post magazine the other day -- it was about things / technologies that are becoming obsolete. Included on the list was "stereo systems."

As you point out:

I think iPods, HTiaB systems, and cheap/portable audio in general is killing hifi. Most consumers are perfectly happy listening to lossy formats played through a cheap DAC hooked up to a $10 pair of ear buds. And they think it sounds GOOD. If they only knew how much information they were missing! For the dwindling few who do have systems at home, they're often big-box-store junk, improperly set up and used solely for background music. Does anyone critically listen to music anymore?!

On the home theater front, I'm stunned how many people will gladly spend $3,000 or more on a beautiful HD display, get a hi-def DVD player, and then skimp on a boomy, distorted surround HT in a box. Great picture. Terrible sound. And they don't even realize it.

I guess ignorance is bliss.

A real problem with Hi End audio is that it is either completely unknown or viewed as an obscure and elitist preoccupation by the public in general.
Video's a different story. Your local Best Buy can pedal $4000 TV's but can't aford to carry $1000 receivers because they just don't sell.
I'm not sure it's all because people are lazy, Hi end audio is just not well known, and is generally viewed as too complicated to be understood, thus the florishing trade of the custom installer.

Koyaan:

You make a very good point. I would add however that there's high end -- as in compared to Best Buy -- and then there's truly high end.

I think what's frustrating for people like DaveWoj and others who have been solicited for audio advice, is that there is a world of great gear out there that is oftentimes not that much more expensive than the junk at the big box stores -- particularly some of the great subs, speakers, DVD players, etc. available online -- and frankly, not that much more involved to set up. But people seem to close their minds and their wallets when they don't hear "Sony" "Panasonic" or "Bose" in the list of options.

So while I would never expect the masses to buy into the whole audio-nerd world of tubes, exotic cartridges, interconnects, boutique power amps, external DACs, etc., a great budget system can be had if you're willing to do a little homework, ask questions and shop outside of normal bricks and mortar retail channels.

This sort of information is readily at hand for anyone with an Internet connection and is often utilized when they shop for cars, refrigerators, cameras, TVs, dog food, doctors, etc.

The irony in this is that my experience has been the exact opposite: you've got internet companies like Outlaw that offer trained, competent support staff for free plus communities like ours for those "off hours" questions, and then you've got specialty shops that won't even tell you how to disable a subwoofer on a surround processor that they sold you unless you pay them an additional fee for setting it up. Granted, not all shops are that way, but it's become more common.

I agree with you, the my limited experience with Outlaw, ATI and Axiom has all been very good. My questions have all been answered and especially when I just did not get it the first time. And of course the forums. Lastly, no rude salesmen.

The Interent-direct merchant (i.e. Outlaw, Axiom, Hsu Research) also has one other really big advantage -- they only have to know/support their product line; and therefore, their depth of knowledge is oftentimes much greater when it comes to features, specs and set up. Heck, they know the product from the ground up!

Contrast that with a conventional retailer who carries dozens of product lines and you begin to see how hard it is to understand and support those products at the same level.

Hadn't thought of it until Gonk mentioned it, but the immediacy of these forums and online communities can't be overstated. Personally, I've gotten immeasurable help from the knowledge pool in the Saloon, and "business-hours" don't exist. I've found very little reason to even look in audio shops since I started surfing for info.

Well said, tru blu. Vive la Forums!

Tru Blu has it right!

I work hard for my money and I always do a reasonable amount of research on a product before I purchase it. Forums like this one are one way to do that research and get advice before plunking down some cash. But many folks are intimidated by forums or don't want to take the time to wade through long threads and piece together a recommendation.

Like many here I get questions from folks about AV/HT gear. Its funny, but most want confirmation what the've seen/heard at a brick and mortar store is OK. For example, I've given up telling people that comparing flat screen TV's at BB's "Wall of TVs" is a waste of time. I try to steer folks to reputable sites such as CNET to research their purchases. While an audio or videophile might challenge CNET's conclusions, for the most part highly rated items will meet expectations and people will be satisfied with their purchase.

Now I'll get off my soap box...

I do have to say that this is one of my favorite forums. Lots of great info and really great people who, no matter how hi-end their system, will never put down anyone else.
I'm sure there have been some "stupid" questions posted on these forums but they have always been answered in a non condescending and civilized manner.
I didn't think my post would draw so much attention but I suppose we all have to vent our frustrations every once in a while.
There is nothing more frustrating then doing all your research, knowing all the specs and being an informed shopper only to have a Best Buy salesman try to tell you the exact opposite or convince you that you need to buy the $99 HDMI cable otherwise that $3,000 LCD TV just won't give you the highest quality picture. I argued with a salesman for so long one time that he almost convinced me that I knew nothing. I feel for the uniformed person who gets taken advantage of by those salesmen if he did that to me.

Those of us who have been tempted by $2000
power cabels , little wooden tripods to support our speaker cabels, and of course the wonderful clocks that made eveything sound better are probably in no position to judge anyone gullable.