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#96846 - 08/30/17 12:34 PM Re: Model 976 - myth or real? [Re: J.H.]
EEman Offline
Desperado

Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 514
Loc: Canton, MI
Originally Posted By J.H.
How much difference in sound quality will it be going to a dedicated HT processor over a receiver? I can't wait to see and read reviews of the model 976.


My first Outlaw was the 970/7075 combo replacing a Yamaha HTR-5150. Granted the 5150 is at best middle of the road SQ but there was a noticeable improvement going to the 970 and THEN another noticeable improvement moving from the 970 to the 975. I would suspect the 976 would be even better than the 975. (at least 1 better, right?)
_________________________
975/7075/SMS-1
Aperion Verus Grand Towers & Bookshelves, Verus Forte Center, Infinity Surrounds, Ultra-X12
Oppo BDP-203, XBOX360, Xbox One
LG 65" OLED
RR2150 w/Klipsch SCR-2

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#96847 - 08/30/17 04:01 PM Re: Model 976 - myth or real? [Re: ppellegrini]
renov8r Offline
Desperado

Registered: 11/13/02
Posts: 336
Loc: Illinois
There have been rapid shifts in the some of the things that AV receivers do and the biggest driver of that shift is the increasingly complex encoding that have been adopted to make movies more immersive. That means that systems that were not capable of decoding discrete 5.1 sound tracks have been left in the dust compared those that do. The evolution of 7.1 and now object oriented sound tracks are further big advances.

The other factor is that the Digital-to-Analog chipsets evolve at about the pace of other computer technology -- that means not just better resolution of higher bit rate audio but improvements to things like the overall signal-to-noise levels, greatly enhanced resistance to artifacts of the digital conversion, and more features at lower prices. Those features and dropping prices makes it easy to incorporate things that once exotic like parametric eq. and similar enhancements.

Meanwhile the other things that receivers do, like tuning into broadcasts / internet sources, switching various components and providing amplification to drive speakers, has not really evolved nearly so much -- the start of the art for amplification arguably remains high current balanced designed like those offered by Outlaw and other firms. I know all about the topologies that are possible http://www.audioholics.com/audio-amplifier/amplifier-classes but the fact is for lots of reasons the differential drive amplifiers are hard to beat -- http://www.ati-amp.com/differential_drive_amplifier.php
You can argue that some streaming sources have proven to be more responsive to offering high bit rate content, but given how many people are attached to vinyl or CDs that is not a particularly compelling reason to upgrade.
The last part of the function of AV receivers, as relates to component switching, was once mundane but now complicated by things like the shifting standards for HDMI 2.#x and associated HDCP x.x and the associated headaches of 4k scaling / pass-thru. If I had to lay money on what "final tweaks" are giving the Outlaw team the most trouble it is almost certainly in that realm...

All that aside, the decision to "go with separates" is less about the dollars and cents of TODAY than the longer term satisfaction and flexibility -- for folks that will likely never care about swapping out any of their existing components it might not make sense to fret about the differences between separates and a receiver. For nearly everybody else, who likely will swap out amps, or displays, or speakers, or sources or perhaps even create multiple entertainment zones in their home the value of separates is much clearer -- you simply have more choices. Together with the boost to performance that one gets as the codecs and DAC advance as well as just the "Christmas morning" effect that many of us appreciate from upgrading the pluses of separates don't really need further justification.

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#96848 - 08/30/17 04:56 PM Re: Model 976 - myth or real? [Re: XenonMan]
J.H. Offline
Gunslinger

Registered: 04/03/06
Posts: 43
Loc: NJ
Its a 10 year old RX-V663. I think it'll be a very noticeable difference. It decodes DTS-HD and Dolby TrueHD so I really don't need much beyond that. Its does DD plus also.
I LOVE my Parasound amp man, that thing is clean, dynamic power for days!

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#96849 - 08/30/17 09:22 PM Re: Model 976 - myth or real? [Re: ppellegrini]
XenonMan Offline
Desperado

Registered: 04/08/08
Posts: 2676
Loc: Columbus,North Carolina
Maintain the status quo until the 976 is out and has some reviews then decide.
_________________________
Music system
Model 990/7500/Magnepan 1.6 QRs/Technics SL1200 MK2/Aperion S-12 Subwoofer/OWA3/Sony NS75H DVD
APC H15 Power Conditioner

TV System
Large Advent Loudspeakers/ Polk center/Monoprice surrounds/Panasonic Viera 42 inch/Onkyo HT-RC260/Sony BDP S590/Directv


Home Theater System
Onkyo PR-SC886/Outlaw 7125 Klipsch RF-82 L/R,RC-62 center, RB-35 SR/SL, BENQ HT1075, Outlaw LFM1-EX/OPPO BDP-83/Directv
Harmony ONE
Blue Jeans and Monoprice interconnects
APC H15 Power Conditioner

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#96850 - 08/31/17 10:27 PM Re: Model 976 - myth or real? [Re: Outlaw Ben]
TCat Offline
Gunslinger

Registered: 03/25/17
Posts: 22
Loc: PNW
Originally Posted By Outlaw Ben
TCat, Since then we have talked about the unit a couple times. One update can even be seen on page 3 of this thread, dated June '17

Talk to me, babe. That was three months ago. At which point we were pointing out that you were missing the Spring date you announced in, what, January?

Let's try to be honest... it's been over eight months since you announced this, and you haven't been transparent on when it will be done. Sure, you've got the penniless white-knight fanboys who buy one item every 15 years and yet will defend you to with invective... but for those of us with actual coin, you aren't helping with the opacity.

I have moved on. But if you hurry or can actually be open about the status, I can pivot. Seriously though, you've got to learn what "lost opportunity cost" is. Basically, if monthly you can only produce X number of widget Y (in this case, 976), and you can sell your entire production each month regardless of glitches, there's zero benefit in delaying. If demand and glitchiness are more elastic, the equation is more complex up until you reach the point where your excess production capacity costs you too much.

You guys seem to be on the wrong side of this. Emotiva and Onkyo have proven it can have some bugs but be better than the competition and sell well... and you can fix the glitches in software, garnering even better "word" and status (especially if you used FPGAs, please tell me your team spent that extra $20 and used FPGAs!) despite the bizarre fact that these newly-renewed fanatics received slightly sub-par software.

This should be novel. Get it out or at least be transparent. This isn't how you make money.

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#96851 - 08/31/17 11:40 PM Re: Model 976 - myth or real? [Re: TCat]
AvFan Offline
Desperado

Registered: 09/12/05
Posts: 619
Loc: El Cajon, California
Originally Posted By TCat
Originally Posted By Outlaw Ben
TCat, Since then we have talked about the unit a couple times. One update can even be seen on page 3 of this thread, dated June '17

Talk to me, babe. That was three months ago. At which point we were pointing out that you were missing the Spring date you announced in, what, January?

Let's try to be honest... it's been over eight months since you announced this, and you haven't been transparent on when it will be done. Sure, you've got the penniless white-knight fanboys who buy one item every 15 years and yet will defend you to with invective... but for those of us with actual coin, you aren't helping with the opacity.

I have moved on. But if you hurry or can actually be open about the status, I can pivot. Seriously though, you've got to learn what "lost opportunity cost" is. Basically, if monthly you can only produce X number of widget Y (in this case, 976), and you can sell your entire production each month regardless of glitches, there's zero benefit in delaying. If demand and glitchiness are more elastic, the equation is more complex up until you reach the point where your excess production capacity costs you too much.

You guys seem to be on the wrong side of this. Emotiva and Onkyo have proven it can have some bugs but be better than the competition and sell well... and you can fix the glitches in software, garnering even better "word" and status (especially if you used FPGAs, please tell me your team spent that extra $20 and used FPGAs!) despite the bizarre fact that these newly-renewed fanatics received slightly sub-par software.

This should be novel. Get it out or at least be transparent. This isn't how you make money.


Geez, you would have been apoplectic if you'd been around for the previous Outlaw pre/pro efforts! But in an earlier post you said you'd moved on and bought something else. I hope you are happy with your recent purchase.
_________________________
AvFan
Outlaw 976 | ATI 2005 | M&K 850s Left, Center & Right, Surround-55s, MX-70B Sub | Harmony 950 remote | Panamax 5100 | OPPO UDP-203 | LG OLED55B7

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#96852 - 09/01/17 12:11 AM Re: Model 976 - myth or real? [Re: AvFan]
TCat Offline
Gunslinger

Registered: 03/25/17
Posts: 22
Loc: PNW
Originally Posted By AvFan
Geez, you would have been apoplectic if you'd been around for the previous Outlaw pre/pro efforts! But in an earlier post you said you'd moved on and bought something else. I hope you are happy with your recent purchase.

Probably, which might explain their financial performance. I did say that, even in the above post... not sure how you missed it - first sentence of Paragraph 3. And I am decently happy... better form factor and more features at 2/3 the price of a 976/5000 combo... but I do suspect the 5000 would sound better. Everything is a compromise. Jobs, marriage, sound systems... everything.

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#96853 - 09/01/17 09:43 AM Re: Model 976 - myth or real? [Re: TCat]
Helson Offline
Gunslinger

Registered: 03/21/12
Posts: 283
Loc: USA
"Talk to me, babe... Emotiva and Onkyo have proven it can have some bugs but be better than the competition and sell well..."
I, for one, don't want to be on the wrong side of a beta test with my purchase. I've had the 975 for quite some time now, three+ years, and its not given me many problems. Yes, the occasional times when I have to use a deoxidizing cleaner on the HDMI jacks, but that's a given with HDMI jacks.
When the 976 does come out, I want it to be in my system for at least as long, with no aggravating issues to put up with, other than the occasional HDMI jack cleaning.


Edited by Helson (09/01/17 01:55 PM)
_________________________
Main HT <> 976 <> 7200 <> Ultra-X12 <> sapphire ST2 mkII RF/LF <> sapphire SC center
sapphire ST2 mkII SBR/SBL <> sapphire SS SR/SL <> Verizon/DVR <> Vizio M70Q7 <> Oppo UDP-203 <> Amazon 4k Fire TV

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#96854 - 09/01/17 10:15 AM Re: Model 976 - myth or real? [Re: ppellegrini]
renov8r Offline
Desperado

Registered: 11/13/02
Posts: 336
Loc: Illinois
Peter Tribeman has a pretty impressive record of longevity and independence. If others want to offer advice I'd hope they could back that up with their own credentials. For that matter, if I was comparing the relative relationships that Chief Outlaw Peter Tribeman has been able to foster, vs those of Emotiva's top guy, Dan Laufman, there is little doubt who is more widely admired... It is not that Emotiva is not a worthy firm to consider, but Laufman's efforts to control Sherbourne and Carver have both been rather less than successful...

Don't get me wrong, with Pioneer having to sell out to Onkyo and even Harman taking a huge buy-out from Samsung the world of AV is facing, "interesting times", but Outlaw's leadership has a darned enviable place. The difference between firms that walk the tight rope between success and failure often comes down to the little things and Outlaw has proven over and over that they get the little things right.

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#96858 - 09/01/17 02:28 PM Re: Model 976 - myth or real? [Re: ppellegrini]
Owl's_Warder Offline
Desperado

Registered: 06/29/01
Posts: 894
Loc: Grants Pass, OR
TCat, your last couple of posts are a light version of the type of backlash Outlaw used to get several years back and are the exact reason they hold things close to the vest now. There was a time when they shared the transparency you're demanding but when things beyond their control caused timetables or availability to change, people lost their minds and exploded onto the forum boards. It wasn't pretty and no amount of explanation was ever good enough for them. Hence, the Outlaws stopped being so open about what they have cooking and how close it is to being ready to serve.

Given that history, the fact they pointed to spring means they had every expectation of providing it then and things beyond their control prevented it. I guarantee you they're doing all they can to finish it up as nobody wants it moving out the door more than they do.

On a personal note, it'd be great if you could please maintain civility and stop with the name calling. These forums are generally a nice place to visit and disparaging comments don't add anything to the discussion. There's a great group of people on here that are pleasant and helpful, there isn't any call for insulting us. In my eyes (I won't speak for anyone else), it just makes you look like a bully throwing a tantrum and completely detracts from anything positive that you might want to contribute. Thanks!

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