#97039 - 11/06/17 12:33 AM
Re: Model 976 - myth or real?
[Re: Rene S. Hollan]
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Gunslinger
Registered: 01/15/15
Posts: 214
Loc: East Texas
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I don't think the issue of phantom speakers matters in an Atmos setup: so long as the real speakers perform well, positioning tricks using volume, phase, and delay should work as expected. Of course, you could not measure and correct a system like that based on phantom speakers. This actually comes up in non-Atmos settings where one has multiple subwoofers. The problem is that one is trying to apply room correction to the LFE channel, and all one has to measure are the real subwoofers. It also means that one should do bass management before room correction. Most people use multiple subs to smooth out the room reponse, and then correct them as a single subwoofer. Of course, this only works from points equidistant from each subwoofer unless additional delay management has been applied (say with a DDRC-88A for 7.1 and another miniDSP 2x4 applying delay management between subs after the DDRC-88A. Alternately, a single DDRC-88A can manage 5.3 setups (L, C, R, LS, RS, and three subwoofers, oftern used in LFE plus stereo sub arrangements). There are successful 16 channel Dirac Live room correction setups using a pair of DDRC-88As after the pre/pre for Dolby Atmos. Check out the application notes on the miniDSP website ( www.minidsp.com). But, the big thing with Atmos is that the only decoders for it are licensed in (rather expensive) A/V preamps and receivers, and sources like BD players have to have their HDMI outputs set to bitstream instead of LPCM. That means no chance to do room correction with a nanoAVR HD or nanoAVR DL in the digital domain, except on the LPCM decoded TrueHD source as 7.1. (Atmos adds metadata to a TrueHD encoding so it can play on non-Atmos setups). Finally, the big "secret" is that supposedly a lot of Atmos content, at least initially, is supposedly pre-rendered as to speaker location. I've decided my living room, where I would be doing critical music listening WON'T have an Atmos setup. I'll stick to 7.2 at most, and will probably do Dirac Live processing and bass management with a nanoAVR HD (bass management, distance, and level) and nanoAVR DL (Dirac Live). It's more "audio friendly" in that it is done in the digital domain. I'll leave the possible use of multiple DDRC-88As to a future separate Atmos theatre. You do not consider bass management to be part of room correction?
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#97040 - 11/06/17 12:47 AM
Re: Model 976 - myth or real?
[Re: ppellegrini]
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Gunslinger
Registered: 05/03/05
Posts: 132
Loc: Monroe, WA
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No. But that is a matter of semantics. To me "bass management" involves directing low frequencies to subwoofers from other channels. The other issues subwoofers raise are very much a part of room correction.
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#97042 - 11/06/17 03:23 PM
Re: Model 976 - myth or real?
[Re: Rene S. Hollan]
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Gunslinger
Registered: 03/21/12
Posts: 283
Loc: USA
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[spoiler][/spoiler]Right. But what if the "TV" were another downstream "AVR". Could decoded 7.1 LPCM be sent? Recent research suggests no (2ch PCM) or whatever the source sends that the TV says it can handle. TV's are always HDMI sink devices, while pre-pros and AVRs are HDMI repeater devices. Otherwise, you're describing a hypothetical configuration.
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Main HT <> 976 <> 7200 <> Ultra-X12 <> sapphire ST2 mkII RF/LF <> sapphire SC center sapphire ST2 mkII SBR/SBL <> sapphire SS SR/SL <> Verizon/DVR <> Vizio M70Q7 <> Oppo UDP-203 <> Amazon 4k Fire TV
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#97043 - 11/06/17 05:49 PM
Re: Model 976 - myth or real?
[Re: ppellegrini]
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Gunslinger
Registered: 05/03/05
Posts: 132
Loc: Monroe, WA
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Right. So what happens when you put another HDMI repeater device downstream of the pre/pro, specifically a 976 or even a 975?
We know the pre/pro can send 2ch LPCM to the TV, regardless of what it receives (whether it reencodes the audio or takes the first two channels). A lot of pre/pros will only send 2ch audio from the current source or other analog sources via zone 2 HDMI.
We know the pre/pro decodes bitstream formats to LPCM and probably does bass management, level, and delay in the digital domain so as to have 7.1ch available, after all it needs it for itself prior to volume control out the analog outputs.
The question is: if a downstream HDMI repeater reported via EDID that it could accept 7.1 LPCM audio, would the pre/pro send it, or only ever 2ch.
The Oppo BD players do this out their secondary HDMI outputs, so it is certainly feasible.
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no good deed goes unpunished
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#97044 - 11/06/17 06:44 PM
Re: Model 976 - myth or real?
[Re: ppellegrini]
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Desperado
Registered: 04/08/08
Posts: 2676
Loc: Columbus,North Carolina
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It is all conjecture at this point since I don't think anyone on this forum has tried what you propose. You are asking questions that no one can answer except as a theoretical guess(SWAG). You may have better luck getting an answer from someplace like AVS forum where someone may have tried to create a processor loop for Dirac.
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Music system Model 990/7500/Magnepan 1.6 QRs/Technics SL1200 MK2/Aperion S-12 Subwoofer/OWA3/Sony NS75H DVD APC H15 Power Conditioner
TV System Large Advent Loudspeakers/ Polk center/Monoprice surrounds/Panasonic Viera 42 inch/Onkyo HT-RC260/Sony BDP S590/Directv
Home Theater System Onkyo PR-SC886/Outlaw 7125 Klipsch RF-82 L/R,RC-62 center, RB-35 SR/SL, BENQ HT1075, Outlaw LFM1-EX/OPPO BDP-83/Directv Harmony ONE Blue Jeans and Monoprice interconnects APC H15 Power Conditioner
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#97045 - 11/06/17 07:47 PM
Re: Model 976 - myth or real?
[Re: ppellegrini]
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Gunslinger
Registered: 03/21/12
Posts: 283
Loc: USA
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More than one repeater device in the loop could create handshaking issues that may prevent a proper handshake altogether, and you would get nothing.
Edited by Helson (11/06/17 07:47 PM)
_________________________
Main HT <> 976 <> 7200 <> Ultra-X12 <> sapphire ST2 mkII RF/LF <> sapphire SC center sapphire ST2 mkII SBR/SBL <> sapphire SS SR/SL <> Verizon/DVR <> Vizio M70Q7 <> Oppo UDP-203 <> Amazon 4k Fire TV
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#97047 - 11/07/17 11:00 AM
Re: Model 976 - myth or real?
[Re: ppellegrini]
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Desperado
Registered: 06/29/01
Posts: 894
Loc: Grants Pass, OR
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I have to be honest, I'm confused by the entire proposition. What's the point of using a pre/pro if you're not actually going to use the audio outputs? Just use an HDMI switch and be done with it.
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#97048 - 11/07/17 12:14 PM
Re: Model 976 - myth or real?
[Re: ppellegrini]
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Desperado
Registered: 04/08/08
Posts: 2676
Loc: Columbus,North Carolina
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I think Rene wants to create a processing loop where he can have Dirac Live as room correction. I think he will run into handshake issues and lost capability. From what I gather he wants to use the HDMI output of the pre/pro out to a magic box which does Dirac Live/DSP and then back into the pre/pro for output to the amp/speakers. If I really wanted Dirac Live and didn't already own a processor I would go for the Emotiva XMC-1 which includes it standard. Personally, I prefer the old manual method just for simplicity or use Audyssey and then adjust as needed. The PEQ and REW option in the 976 and maybe the Phoenix is a heaven sent setup for those who really get into the tweaking of their systems. The system Rene describes is so one off I don't think he will get much input here.
_________________________
Music system Model 990/7500/Magnepan 1.6 QRs/Technics SL1200 MK2/Aperion S-12 Subwoofer/OWA3/Sony NS75H DVD APC H15 Power Conditioner
TV System Large Advent Loudspeakers/ Polk center/Monoprice surrounds/Panasonic Viera 42 inch/Onkyo HT-RC260/Sony BDP S590/Directv
Home Theater System Onkyo PR-SC886/Outlaw 7125 Klipsch RF-82 L/R,RC-62 center, RB-35 SR/SL, BENQ HT1075, Outlaw LFM1-EX/OPPO BDP-83/Directv Harmony ONE Blue Jeans and Monoprice interconnects APC H15 Power Conditioner
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#97049 - 11/07/17 12:26 PM
Re: Model 976 - myth or real?
[Re: Rene S. Hollan]
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Gunslinger
Registered: 01/15/15
Posts: 214
Loc: East Texas
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No. But that is a matter of semantics. To me "bass management" involves directing low frequencies to subwoofers from other channels. The other issues subwoofers raise are very much a part of room correction. I get what you are saying now. I use the crossover in the 975 so do not have that issue. I run a 3.1 configuration doing correction through single channel parametric eq units between the 975 and amps/sub. A single, multi channel, unit with HDMI connectivity would make life simpler but is not a necessity.
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#97050 - 11/07/17 12:32 PM
Re: Model 976 - myth or real?
[Re: ppellegrini]
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Gunslinger
Registered: 05/03/05
Posts: 132
Loc: Monroe, WA
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Actually, I want to SEPARATE the room correction from the preamp. The XMC-1 has Emotiva's watered down Dirac Live (thought the full version can be licensed for $99). For me, the preamp should do source selection, decoding (DTS and Dolby) and perhaps level, delay, and bass management (speaker management, though there's no reason this can't be combined with room correction).
I would not expect "handshake issue", at least not in this day and age. The biggies are EDID and HDCP 2.2, and whether they are implemented properly.
Given that the 975 can source audio and video separately (say audio from the 7.1 analog inputs), I'd expect the 976 to have this capability, though whether it would take the audio from the video source and send it out the HDMI output(s) is anyone's guess (and in what format).
I was HOPING the 976's secondary HDMI output would work much like the one on the Oppo BD players: HDMI 1.4 with LPCM audio. But, if it is like most pre/pros it will have, at most, two channel audio, either mixed down from the main source, or any other ANALOG input. If it worked like the Oppo, I could add a nanaoAVR HD, nanoAVR DL, and HDMI 7.1 ch DAC between the secondary HDMI output and 7.1 analog input and get what I want. Alas, this goes so much against the grain of how most pre/pros seem to work with regard to their outputs, that's it probably a lost cause.
I could simply take the secondary HDMI output from the Oppo BD player, add my processing chain, and drive one HDMI input on the 976, adding an HDMI switch BEFORE the Oppo and not using the one in the 976, basically using the 976 as a glorified DAC and volume control with balanced outputs (it's actually cheap for this purpose alone).
Alternatively, re sample the 7.1 outputs and use a DDRC-88A (which is far less Frankensteinish, albeit the resampling). But, for that I could use a 975 and a separate HDMI switch, with the secondary HDMI audio out of the Oppo BD player.
So, it's switch in the 976 and use a DDRC-88A, or switch externally, and use nanoAVRs with a 976, or a DDRC-88A with a 975.
On Edit: if I only used the 976 as an HDMI 1.4 to 7.1ch balanced audio DAC and volume control it would STILL be the cheapest option in that regard.
Edited by Rene S. Hollan (11/07/17 02:44 PM)
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