i have a niles 4 speaker pair selector in my HT. My kitchen speakers ceiling speakers are conected to it and are rated at 8ohm (just like my Mains in my HT which are also connected to the Niles). But when i play music through my kitchen speakers and the Volume control that is in the kitchen is at Full Volume, the kitchen speakers have low volume, much lower then compared to my mains in the HT at the same 970 volume. Is it because of a defect in the kitchen Volume control, is it because the kitchen volume control has impedence matching (which is set at 8ohm), is it because the speaker wire run to the kitchen is like 50ft longer then the mains, or is it something else? Please advise. Angelo

If memory serves me correctly: If both the devices (speaker selector and volume control) are 'impedance matching' (Niles calls it impedance magnifying, btw) you could very well have audibly impaired volume.

Impedance matching devices in general do decrease the amount of power that each speaker receives (and therefore the speaker's maximum loudness). If the mains are more efficient than the in ceiling speakers (a likely scenario) then the perceived loudness at the same power level would be lower in the kitchen.

Some more details would certainly help with a diagnosis:

1) What gauge is the speaker wire on the 50 foot run to the kitchen?

2) What amplifier are you using? Is it capable of handling a 4 Ohm load?

3) Are you using the protection circuit on the speaker selector AND the impedance magnification setting on the volume control? This is a problem I had before and a likely culprit.

4)If so, Remove the volume control from the wall, and set the impedance magnification to 1x

5) If this has no effect, take the volume control out of the loop completely and test again.

6) If volume is better, you might want to get a NON impedance matching volume control since the speaker selector is already doing that for you.

Hope this helps; let us know how it goes...
Tony.

palmer, the guage of the speaker wire i'm using is 14 for the 50 foot run. does the length of the run effect volume?

also, i am not using the impedence protection on the speaker selector. since i'm not using the protection, does it still effect volume?


my amp is the outlaw 7075.

please advise palmer. thanks

It depends. Check this page out:

http://www.roger-russell.com/wire/wire.htm

There's a chart with guidelines for the maximum recommended length of runs for various gauge wire (you're just over his recommendation for 14 Ga.) but there is also some interesting info about when this would not matter so much.

I don't believe the speaker selector should have an effect if it's impedance protection is disabled.

Those Niles boxes have an override switch on the back that will keep the protection engaged, even if the front panel switch is off. Make sure that's off as well.

I would try to eliminate the Volume control as the culprit, first by dialing down the impedance magnification, then by removing the control from the circuit if the symptom remains.

Then look at the cable, connection points and the channel you are using on the speaker selector...

In the interest of due diligence, can I ask what type of speakers (and what their efficiency is), the dimensions of the rooms they are in, etc...

If the ceiling speakers are smaller/lower efficiency than the mains and the kitchen is larger, they will definitely not produce as loud an experience.

the in ceiling speakers in the kitchen are aperion audio in ceilings, and the main speakers are the aperion audio 533-pt with built in in subs.

Well....

While the 533-pt's and the in ceiling speakers are rated at exactly the same sensitivity they are very different beasts indeed.

Even without any insertions in the signal path I would expect louder volume from the 533-PT's.

The 7075 is only driving the midrange and tweeter in the powered towers with the built in 150 watt amp driving the 8" woofer. depending on where the crossover is (and with an 8" driver it could be fairly high into the low midrange) a significant portion of the signal could be handled by the 533's internal amp leaving much more headroom for the upper mids and highs.

The ceiling speakers have to reproduce the full range signal (as much of it as they can) using the 7075 alone.

Also, do you have an SPL meter? This might be a good time to break it out. If you really want to know what the relative volume is for a specific level setting on the 970, SPL readings taken from similar distances will at least give you a more accurate comparison than your ears and brain will.

One last thing, keep in mind that as passive devices, the Niles volume controls CUT volume only. When the volume control in the kitchen is set to full volume, it's simply at the setting where it is reducing the signal least.

Having said all that, there could still be an issue somewhere in the signal path. Why not do a bit more troubleshooting and post your results?

More information will help to troubleshoot your issue.

I think palmer's touched on a few good points. First, an SPL meter positioned at the same distance from the speakers in each space could provide a specific number for the difference in volume. That difference could be affected to at least some degree by the different rooms they're in and their placement in those rooms. Also, I assume that both the 533-PT's and the in-ceiling speakers are connected to the selector box, such that the volume control is the only piece of the signal path (aside from speaker cable length) that differs for the kitchen speakers, right?

Also, it'd be important to make sure the 970 is in stereo mode for all of these comparisons...

thanks guys! i found the problem. i poped off the cover on the volume control and it was set to 8x so i put it down to 1x and nw i have volume.
what does the 1x mean and is that ok for my 8ohm speakers?

also since i'm leaving the volume control set at 1x, should i enable protection on my Niles speaker selcetor? i sometimes run 1 pair of speakers, sometimes 2 pairs, and sometimes i run 3 pairs (my mains, kitchen pair, and a pair i have on the patio. should i enable the protection on the nile, or maybe my outlaw 7075 doesn't need it. and how does the protection effect the sound quality? thanks again. angelo.

The Niles speaker-level volume control offers impedance magnification settings of 1x, 2x, 4x, and 8x. According to Figure 7 in the manual , you should set this based on the number of pairs of speakers driven by that volume control. For a single pair of speakers (either 4-ohm or 8-ohm), you should set it to 1x. The 8x setting is used only when driving 9 to 16 pairs of 8 ohm speakers, 5 to 8 pairs of 4 ohm speakers, or some combination thereof. Basically, it's multiplying the speaker impedance by the amount listed (with 1x being no change).

The 7075 is a pretty robust amp, so it really won't care if it's getting a 4 ohm load put on it. The manual for the Niles SS-4 selector switch (which was the first one I found that had a protection button) recommends using the protection mode when driving three or more pairs of 8 ohm speakers or any combination of 8 ohm and 4 ohm speakers (page 3 in the PDF file). If you had the kitchen and the mains going at the same time, you wouldn't need to protection mode. If you had both of them and the patio, it'd probably be best to have the protection mode engaged. As for what the protection mode does to the sound quality, I don't know. I guess you could engage it and turn on all three zones then listen to the main system a bit to see.