#90745 - 06/21/12 11:57 AM
Re: Looking backwards...
[Re: renov8r]
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Gunslinger
Registered: 10/14/11
Posts: 29
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Well said renov8r. Shoulda coulda woulda...
As outsiders we don’t know the terms and working relationship between Sherwood (Inkel??) and OutlawAudio. I had worked at a startup on a very innovative project (think along the line of Facebook but it was over 10 years ago :>). From that experience, I learned that there is a time it seems right just to walk away and cut your loss, no matter how promising the end product could be and how much blood and sweat you have put in. Perhaps I should have tried harder to stay on. No. I did not make a dime from that :<
Just want to add my .02 to the Sherwood R972.
After my new home theater room was finally completed early last year I was pounding on Scott’s door to be the first one to get the 978 (meanwhile using the 1070 as a stop gap). Months and quarters went by and still without the 978. Eventually I acquired a Sherwood R972 with Trinnov as a dare even after hearing all the initial horror stories from various forums. Honestly I was surprised how well Trinnov in the R972 works in my setup (R972 feeding the Outlaw 7125 amp driving PSB Synchrony Speakers). The sound field was simply amazing. I heard all the nuances I had never noticed before. Even my wife asked me if I upgraded the system and she cannot tell the difference between my ProAC Response 2S driven by Monarchy Audio gears and my JVC bookshelf system. The R972 does work relatively bug free in my setup but not without some annoyances. The GUI is dated and it’s very confusing to operate to select the different sound options (perhaps it’s just me). I am afraid to touch it after it is now configured :> It also takes a second or two for the R972 to lock on digital audio streams. Each time the audio stream is “paused” like when you pause a movie, it takes another second or so for it to lock on again. For movies it is not that much of an issue since you don’t skip around too much. However, it gets more annoying when you jump from channel to channel watching cable TVs. Perhaps this is a hardware/design limitation since multiple firmware updates did not eliminate that delay. From following the R972 since it came out end of 2009 (I believe) it took Sherwood months and months if not a year to get most of the kinks out. Hey by the way, I heard their latest firmware 1.48 introduces loud pops via HDMI (since I only use SPDIF for digital audio, I have not noticed any issue yet) that many people had to roll back to 1.47. Outlaw might not even have a choice other than walking away from Sherwood. I am sure they did not expect all the delays associated with their 978.
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PC (Media Monkey) -> Benchmark DAC-1 USB -> Outlaw Audio RR2150 -> ProAC Response 1.5 Micca EP600 G2 / Oppo BDP-95 -> Sherwood R972 -> Outlaw Audio 7125 -> PSB Synchrony 1B, 1C, S, Outlaw Audio LFM-1 EX Retired (For now): Patriot Box Office, Outlaw Audio 1070, Acoustic Energy Aego P5, Rogers LS 1, LS2, GS1 Wish List: Outlaw Audio OSB-1, Oppo BDP-105, Fineline LCR-11
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#90747 - 06/21/12 01:24 PM
Re: 2012 June Model 978 UPDATE!
[Re: 73Bruin]
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Gunslinger
Registered: 03/21/12
Posts: 93
Loc: Montreal, QC, Canada
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As I have posted before, Outlaw would probably have been better served continuing with the partnership with Sherwood Newcastle and the Korean firm that made the 990. That's also the conclusion I've drawn over the last year. In their March 2010 briefing, Outlaw cited the introduction of HDMI 1.4 and 3D to the market as well as delays to Outlaw-specific changes to the common platform as the main reasons why they killed the deal with Inkel. But as consumers, we aren't privy to the whole business relationship between Outlaw and Inkel, there may be others reasons why Outlaw got out. Maybe it was a rash decision brought about by impatience over the longer than expected development cycle... who knows. However, I doubt that the release of Inkel developped 997 processor would have taken as long as restarting a whole new development cycle from scratch with a new Chinese contract partner.
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#90749 - 06/21/12 02:44 PM
Re: Looking backwards...
[Re: hifihunter]
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Gunslinger
Registered: 01/19/06
Posts: 266
Loc: Tauranga, New Zealand
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Well said renov8r. Shoulda coulda woulda...
As outsiders we don’t know the terms and working relationship between Sherwood (Inkel??) and OutlawAudio. I had worked at a startup on a very innovative project (think along the line of Facebook but it was over 10 years ago :>). From that experience, I learned that there is a time it seems right just to walk away and cut your loss, no matter how promising the end product could be and how much blood and sweat you have put in. Perhaps I should have tried harder to stay on. No. I did not make a dime from that :<
Just want to add my .02 to the Sherwood R972.
After my new home theater room was finally completed early last year I was pounding on Scott’s door to be the first one to get the 978 (meanwhile using the 1070 as a stop gap). Months and quarters went by and still without the 978. Eventually I acquired a Sherwood R972 with Trinnov as a dare even after hearing all the initial horror stories from various forums. Honestly I was surprised how well Trinnov in the R972 works in my setup (R972 feeding the Outlaw 7125 amp driving PSB Synchrony Speakers). The sound field was simply amazing. I heard all the nuances I had never noticed before. Even my wife asked me if I upgraded the system and she cannot tell the difference between my ProAC Response 2S driven by Monarchy Audio gears and my JVC bookshelf system. The R972 does work relatively bug free in my setup but not without some annoyances. The GUI is dated and it’s very confusing to operate to select the different sound options (perhaps it’s just me). I am afraid to touch it after it is now configured :> It also takes a second or two for the R972 to lock on digital audio streams. Each time the audio stream is “paused” like when you pause a movie, it takes another second or so for it to lock on again. For movies it is not that much of an issue since you don’t skip around too much. However, it gets more annoying when you jump from channel to channel watching cable TVs. Perhaps this is a hardware/design limitation since multiple firmware updates did not eliminate that delay. From following the R972 since it came out end of 2009 (I believe) it took Sherwood months and months if not a year to get most of the kinks out. Hey by the way, I heard their latest firmware 1.48 introduces loud pops via HDMI (since I only use SPDIF for digital audio, I have not noticed any issue yet) that many people had to roll back to 1.47. Outlaw might not even have a choice other than walking away from Sherwood. I am sure they did not expect all the delays associated with their 978. ' When I read posts like yours and renov8r regarding Trinnov, it just makes me wish Outlaw would have produce a pre with Trinnov even more. What a bummer.
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#90750 - 06/21/12 03:17 PM
Re: Looking backwards...
[Re: Retep]
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Gunslinger
Registered: 10/14/11
Posts: 29
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Retep,
I know what you mean. For quite a while I was keeping my hopes up that Outlaw might revisit the Trinnov Optimizer option one day after 978. Until recently Outlaw was listed as a Licensing partner on Trinnov Audio's web site but it has since been removed. Only Sherwood (Licensing) and ADA (OEM) are on Trinnov's site now. I am not holding my breath for an Trinnov offering from Outlaw Audio any time in the near future. Like you said.. what a bummer.
_________________________
PC (Media Monkey) -> Benchmark DAC-1 USB -> Outlaw Audio RR2150 -> ProAC Response 1.5 Micca EP600 G2 / Oppo BDP-95 -> Sherwood R972 -> Outlaw Audio 7125 -> PSB Synchrony 1B, 1C, S, Outlaw Audio LFM-1 EX Retired (For now): Patriot Box Office, Outlaw Audio 1070, Acoustic Energy Aego P5, Rogers LS 1, LS2, GS1 Wish List: Outlaw Audio OSB-1, Oppo BDP-105, Fineline LCR-11
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#90751 - 06/21/12 03:42 PM
Re: Looking backwards...
[Re: Retep]
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Desperado
Registered: 11/13/02
Posts: 336
Loc: Illinois
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There are a ton of very well researched products that make it out of the gates and then the firm that owns the patents runs into such enormous headwinds in the marketplac that they just cannot make up the gaps that exist in the marketing against their competition. I think that definately is the situation with Trinnov. That said the guys that run Trinnov might still work with Outlaw as I don't think they've decided to give up on home users. Firms like Dirac have licensed their technology to Oppo for some kind of cell phone ?!? (probably for Asian markets, but still...) The focus on the 978 certainly would suggest that anything "above and beyond" is way way way down the road. The good thing about Trinnov is that since the technology is scabale if (when???) new methods of specifying additional channels of surround appear in the marketplace the value / ease of integrating the optimizations of Trinnov to the new formats ought to give the firm a huge edge. Who knows, maybe Dolby will buy Trinnov and it will help to market the technology more broadly (though the pace of Dolby's efforts with the BrightSide / HDR /"DolbyVision" marketing has been anything but stellar) or maybe it will wither / remain an obscure niche ... The thought that a tiny high end company that probably has sold fewer system in its whole existence than even companies like Wilson Audio will be the only source of Trinnov just seems unlikely. I mean I got nothing against ADA, but short of custom installers in the Hamptons I doubt too many folks are exposed to it kind of hardware... BTW When I demo'd a Sherwood 972 at my local audio dealer's shop I knew that the "flaw" of dropping the audio when changing TV stations while still attached to the same source was a total deal killer that my family would not put up with. The dealer''s honesty in tellling me he did believe it would be possible for any "firm ware" to change that prevented me from pulling the trigger on that purchase. I trust that his knowledge of all the details that would have been needed to re-engineer the whole HDMI layer on that device was correct. I suspect the Outlaws may have learned the same thing and I suspect that the lessons they learned from that will make their upcoming offerings the kind of products that you listen to ALL THE TIME, as opposed to the sort of product that your wife / kids relegate to "dad's pile of stuff that we think sucks despite how much he spent on it" ... Well said renov8r. Shoulda coulda woulda...
As outsiders we don’t know the terms and working relationship between Sherwood (Inkel??) and OutlawAudio. I had worked at a startup on a very innovative project (think along the line of Facebook but it was over 10 years ago :>). From that experience, I learned that there is a time it seems right just to walk away and cut your loss, no matter how promising the end product could be and how much blood and sweat you have put in. Perhaps I should have tried harder to stay on. No. I did not make a dime from that :<
Just want to add my .02 to the Sherwood R972.
After my new home theater room was finally completed early last year I was pounding on Scott’s door to be the first one to get the 978 (meanwhile using the 1070 as a stop gap). Months and quarters went by and still without the 978. Eventually I acquired a Sherwood R972 with Trinnov as a dare even after hearing all the initial horror stories from various forums. Honestly I was surprised how well Trinnov in the R972 works in my setup (R972 feeding the Outlaw 7125 amp driving PSB Synchrony Speakers). The sound field was simply amazing. I heard all the nuances I had never noticed before. Even my wife asked me if I upgraded the system and she cannot tell the difference between my ProAC Response 2S driven by Monarchy Audio gears and my JVC bookshelf system. The R972 does work relatively bug free in my setup but not without some annoyances. The GUI is dated and it’s very confusing to operate to select the different sound options (perhaps it’s just me). I am afraid to touch it after it is now configured :> It also takes a second or two for the R972 to lock on digital audio streams. Each time the audio stream is “paused” like when you pause a movie, it takes another second or so for it to lock on again. For movies it is not that much of an issue since you don’t skip around too much. However, it gets more annoying when you jump from channel to channel watching cable TVs. Perhaps this is a hardware/design limitation since multiple firmware updates did not eliminate that delay. From following the R972 since it came out end of 2009 (I believe) it took Sherwood months and months if not a year to get most of the kinks out. Hey by the way, I heard their latest firmware 1.48 introduces loud pops via HDMI (since I only use SPDIF for digital audio, I have not noticed any issue yet) that many people had to roll back to 1.47. Outlaw might not even have a choice other than walking away from Sherwood. I am sure they did not expect all the delays associated with their 978. ' When I read posts like yours and renov8r regarding Trinnov, it just makes me wish Outlaw would have produce a pre with Trinnov even more. What a bummer.
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#90752 - 06/21/12 03:59 PM
Re: Looking backwards...
[Re: hifihunter]
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Gunslinger
Registered: 05/06/10
Posts: 21
Loc: NH
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Yes Trinnov's spatial mapping to make even poorly laid out rooms sound good, is what I was looking for. I was ready to buy the 997 or 998 but if Outlaw doesn't offer that, am leaning more toward the Emotiva XCM-1.
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#90753 - 06/21/12 04:19 PM
Re: Looking backwards...
[Re: renov8r]
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Desperado
Registered: 01/01/03
Posts: 506
Loc: Torrance, CA USA
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BTW When I demo'd a Sherwood 972 at my local audio dealer's shop I knew that the "flaw" of dropping the audio when changing TV stations while still attached to the same source was a total deal killer that my family would not put up with. The dealer''s honesty in tellling me he did believe it would be possible for any "firm ware" to change that prevented me from pulling the trigger on that purchase. I trust that his knowledge of all the details that would have been needed to re-engineer the whole HDMI layer on that device was correct. I suspect the Outlaws may have learned the same thing and I suspect that the lessons they learned from that will make their upcoming offerings the kind of products that you listen to ALL THE TIME, as opposed to the sort of product that your wife / kids relegate to "dad's pile of stuff that we think sucks despite how much he spent on it" ... Sorry, but you say this as if Outlaw always ships a flawless pre-pro. How many releases did it take to get the best Outlaw pre-pro the 990 correct - 3 or more? Over how many years? What about the 970/1070 and their no-audio issues? Do you think that didn't have wife acceptance issues. It will be interesting to see if Sherwood ships an updated Trinov unit with a year of the 978 shipping.
Edited by 73Bruin (06/21/12 05:29 PM)
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Living Room 24x18 open 1/2 flight up to a raised dining room/hall 24x12 Outlaw 976 pre-pro running 5.1 system Outlaw 750 for Artison Masterpiece LCR and 2 NHT SuperZeros rears Velodyne Servo FX-1200 LG OLED65C8PUA via HDMI2 to/from 976 HDMI ARC Roku Ultra Samsung BD-D5500 BluRay Amazon FireStick 4K to 976 Aux HDMI input for Amazon Music Ultra
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#90757 - 06/21/12 07:06 PM
Re: Looking backwards...
[Re: Retep]
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Gunslinger
Registered: 03/21/12
Posts: 93
Loc: Montreal, QC, Canada
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When I read posts like yours and renov8r regarding Trinnov, it just makes me wish Outlaw would have produce a pre with Trinnov even more. What a bummer.
Retep, I know what you mean. For quite a while I was keeping my hopes up that Outlaw might revisit the Trinnov Optimizer option one day after 978. Until recently Outlaw was listed as a Licensing partner on Trinnov Audio's web site but it has since been removed. Only Sherwood (Licensing) and ADA (OEM) are on Trinnov's site now. I am not holding my breath for an Trinnov offering from Outlaw Audio any time in the near future. Like you said.. what a bummer. The more reason to wish that Outlaw had hung in there with Sherwood/Inkel. Now according to what rubbersoul reports from his phone conversation with Jennifer of Outlaw, the 998 has been completely dropped and replaced by the 978. One never knows if Outlaw will reconsider this decision sometime in the future but like you said, I wouldn't hold my breath. Very sad...
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#90758 - 06/22/12 12:06 AM
Re: Looking backwards...
[Re: hifihunter]
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Gunslinger
Registered: 11/26/05
Posts: 40
Loc: Minneapolis
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This post by renov8r had me LOL - make their upcoming offerings the kind of products that you listen to ALL THE TIME, as opposed to the sort of product that your wife / kids relegate to "dad's pile of stuff that we think sucks despite how much he spent on it" ... My wife thought it was good too, even without the context (probably just as well without the context actually). Tweak 'slightly by changing "listen to" to "use" (as I did when I read to my wife), and it seems like a good principle to go after in this situation, and many others.
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#90760 - 06/22/12 07:35 AM
MultEQ XT32 goes mainstream (prices dropping fast)
[Re: unpossible]
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Desperado
Registered: 01/27/09
Posts: 414
Loc: Virginia
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Looks like the price pressure is going to be intense. I did some preliminary shopping today and found the Onkyo TX-NR3008 on Amazon for $1299 (free shipping if you subscribe to Amazon Prime). It's rockin' the Audyssey MultEQ XT32 goodness. For another $50, there's also the Onkyo TX-NR3009 which also sports MultEQ XT32. Both offer all the current bells and whistles that you'd come to expect from a modern AVR (but mostly missing in the proposed Outlaw 978). I'm sure Denon/Marantz won't be far behind in aligning their prices.
Edit: Even Crutchfield is getting in on the action. For $999 you can get the Onkyo TX-NR818. Also rockin' Audyssey MultEQ XT32.
Best,
Edited by Ritz2 (06/22/12 07:50 AM)
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