ROTFLMAOOYUS

Interesting, I have searched for Magazine reviews that could back up a claim like this for years in either Sound & Vision or Home Theater lab results. I am not an expert at interpreting the results but I see similar readings (most outstanding according to the review techs) in most AVR’s and Pre/Pro at all price levels.

I recently replaced my Outlaw 950 with a Yamaha RX-A700 (cheap AVR) and I don’t think I am missing anything. In addition, I cannot tell the difference between the internal amp in the AVR vs my external Outlaw amp when using the A700 pre-outs. In fact my OmniMic cannot tell the difference either when recording frequency response. Seems like the technology today is darn good at all levels, at least to my ears and frequently published lab reviews. I am sure there are subtle differences in a properly tuned system and room but I don’t think I could hear them.

Bob

I'm guessing same type of amplifier? Have you tried andy of the new digital amps or the B&O ICE amps? I haven't had the chance to play with the digital, but I do have a d-sonic ICE amp and I can definitely tell the difference between that and my GFA-7707. Perhaps some A/B amps have reached their peak in performance at all levels.

I think my next DIY project, after I finish the 2 I'm currently working on, will be to build a class d amp with a switching power supply. I've read great things about them, but not sure if they're for me. I

Someone should call Onkyo and tell them they're doing it wrong selling 3 to 5 different levels of each product class. Or maybe they're doing it right since the only thing that they actually have to change is the name plate, because obviously the insides are the same on all of them.

I haven't seen an AVR with balanced pre-outs. I won't buy a pre-pro without them.

A factory in China will produce the same quality product produced in a factory anywhere else on earth so long as the people responsible for payment manage the process to their own standards. Dell and Apple computers are made in China and they're worlds apart in component and construction quality. An AVR and Pre-Pros being made in China don't have to have anything at all to do with each other, even if they're produced in the same factory.

Onkyo isn't crap and any dig I made was only to imply it's a largely mass-market brand producing mass-market goods. A small shop like Outlaw can easily specify better components for their smaller production runs.

If Outlaw was building a clone of a mainstream AVR without the amps, I'm pretty confident we'd have seen the 978 out a few years ago. That's not something terribly difficult to have a factory turn around.

I mostly echo twistyboxe's sentiment. Fact is that there have been many points in time that "professional audio reviewers" have falsely declared "everything is all the same" either when their ears or test instruments have been lulled into a stupor / a generation behind the products...

There are all kinds of subtle and dramatic differences in how various products are spec'd and built. Often times those differences are so grossly apparent you'd need only try to initially power up the devices to notice them while other kinds of differences only reveal themselves under more unique circumstances or years down the road.

I have no need or desire to "bash" any products in the broad marketpalce. I am only speaking from experience. There was a time when most manufacturers did "over build" their products and the relative success of firms that moved down a path of economization has made robustly specifying the narrowest tolerances/most reserved ratings a rarity. Some products do sound pretty much the same. I don't know that is necessarily a bad thing, as with the various highly promoted encoding schemes and such there is a certain industry "buy-in" that if it does not promote accuracy per se at least ensures "compliance with a specified minimum". There are still a HUGE percentage of "professionally installed" systems that have such gross problems in such basic things as phase / polarity that I suspect 90%+ of folks who got such "services" are listening to something that STILL makes to miss those low "minimums"...

The relationships that magazines / electronic publications have with home AV manufacturers is a complex one. The firms that make the products know they have to be well reviewed to have success in the marketplace. The reviewers know that their livelihoods are tied to the stream of revenue that flows from advertising AS WELL AS some trust from their readers that they will not sing songs of praise about products with unacceptable performance. One big side effect of this is that ALL manufacturers interact far more closely with ALL reviewers than either side will ever admit. If "review samples" start smoking the manufacturers' response is to send not another random unit off the line but one that has been verified as being on the vanishingly tiny leading edge of the QC curve, where every component has been pre-stressed and passed with flying colors. The honest reviewers will subtly note that experience, perhaps even offering their weird apology / boast of the esoteric equipment along the lines of "due to the uniquely demanding system that I have in my Reference SetUp the sample did encounter some anomalies but I am sure no home user would ever put the product through such a torture test". Yeah right. And the LearJet trip to the Vienna Opera was not a bribe either...

My highest regards,
renov8r

Seems to work for them. They move a lot of product. A number of posters here are using Onkyo receivers.



<shrug>

I used to think that way. Truth is, I never used my balanced outputs on the 990. Nice to have, for sure, but not a deal breaker for most folks. If that's all the 978 has going for it....



Total BS. There is one thing that holds the attention of factories in China....cold hard cash...and lots of it. As a small buyer, you have an insignificant amount of power and little control over timing of production or quality of components. A Chinese supplier will lie to your face on an ongoing basis and then dare you to sue them (in China) for breach of contract. Been there, done that (and I speak pretty fluent Chinese). This is why I was chuckling back in January when Outlaw said Scott was "going over there" to get a status update during a time in the year when almost zero work gets done in China and people are traveling to their hometowns for lengthy new years celebrations. And here we are 7 months later and <shock>, the product still isn't here.



Sadly, that isn't the case in Chinese manufacturing. See above.



They're probably kicking themselves that they didn't take this route. Here we are 4 years later and they're still re-selling product from Marantz instead of an Outlaw branded processor while their own design has languished in vapor land. They've also been repeatedly leapfrogged by the industry on features while they continue off in the weeds with their supplier. Not particularly confidence inspiring. A dollar short and a day late, I'm afraid. I'm trying to discuss this without sounding harsh, but it's a harsh world out there...and the facts are not particularly kind to Outlaw in this case.

Best,

Ritz you are right on the money on your responses. You do seem to have an understanding of supplier economics in China. Either Outlaw didn't flash enough money to get the 978 out on a timely order OR they are too small to get any priority or preferential consideration. That is the problem with production in China. IF Outlaw could have managed a made in the U.S.A. production with a rise in price of course that still may have been better than what they have now. They are up the creek without a paddle in the ever-changing world of digital technology. I am not sure the 978 will be up to snuff by the time it gets out. IF there are software problems with it then what mechanism is there for Outlaw to rectify the problem with their manufacturer?

Another thing to note is what you stated in that here Outlaw is 4 years later STILL reselling another company's product to match with their amplifiers. Other companies are getting their products out but Outlaw is struggling for years to get one product going. What will this company do for an encore? Can they sustain themselves in the home theatre market at this pace? Comparatively few will continue to buy Outlaw's products. Their amplifiers are awesome because they are designed right by Outlaw and they have a proven manufacturer in ATI.

They need to get this product out NOW and not later as Emotiva will get theirs out and will be enjoying sales. I'm worried about the 978s delays in production and development costs. Can this product come out at no more than $1600.00?

Sadly the reason Scott hasn't had a more recent update since his last is because why bring out news if it's not good.

You want reality? Have I been to China? Several times. I have ODM's there. If you specify features and performance specs (the normal process), your ODM will buy the cheapest parts they possibly can to produce the product that meets your performance specs. Period. Country of origin has nothing to do with it. Pick an ODM in any country and the same manufacturing process takes place - they will buy the cheapest parts possible - it's economic sense. If you want premium performance, then you specify exactly what parts will give you that performance and your ODM will buy those components (and charge you ) and they will be in your product. Again, same situation around the world. This China-bashing is getting a bit repetitive and tiring.

No kidding. At the moment, the best products in the world are not only manufactured in China, they can only be manufactured in China.

Your experience doesn't match mine. I lived and worked in China for about 5 years and have been working with Chinese companies since the late 80's. I have been in meetings where I've heard Chinese manufacturing company C-level execs talk amongst themselves (not knowing I spoke Chinese) about how they would say whatever it took to get a contract and they would "deal with reality later." I've seen it time and again, first hand, and I have a list of acquaintances as long as my arm (people who actually live and work in China) with similar experiences.

If you're Apple, Dell, or some big electronics conglomerate I'm sure the rules are very different (mostly because they are big enough to enforce meaningful financial penalties for not following the "rules"). They're also big enough to have their own QA staff *on site* to get timely reports on both quality and production snafus. You can also afford to hire a local "consultant" to bribe local officials and business owners with money/cars/girls/etc while denying that you're involved in foreign corruption. If you're a small-time operator occasionally ordering a run of a few hundred units of consumer electronics...good luck. Outsourcing software design to them on top of the hardware integration and manufacturing is downright foolish. Short of not paying them, you (the collective you) have zero levers to control the process. So as a consumer, if I'm stuck buying product from China, who do I want on my team if there are problems with my shiny new device? A big multi-national that can support the product on their own or a company with a no technical people who will call up their "Chinese partner" to deal with bugs? (that was a rhetorical question for the sarcasm impaired) Does that mean every small company is going to get boned in China? No, but it is VERY common.

As far as "China bashing goes," I suggest you try living and working there for a while. In short, you're way off base. Corruption is rampant, business ethics are non-existent, and there is little relief in their court system should you try to enforce any contractual agreements with a local company.

Best,