RItz, I'm not sure if you've noticed, but the 978 won't be an AVR. I don't think that anyone looking at the 978 is in the market for an AVR. If you believe an AVR is a substitute for a Pre-Pro, well, good luck to you. Oranges and Apples. And you're also looking at Onkyo. Onkyo. Oranges and Apples.

As far as I'm concerned, an AVR with pre-outs is the same as a pre-pro. All of the units I mentioned have pre-outs. Outlaw would seem to feel the same way since their "temporary" pre-pro offerings have all been AVR's.

As for your dig at Onkyo...it wasn't that long ago that Outlaw was reselling them as their pre-pro offering. You'd think they'd only choose the best stuff to resell to their clients, no?

Best,

Hey Ritz

Can you give me some helpful information here. I thought that actual pre/pros would have a cleaner more neutral signal path since they do not have and amplifier with larger heatsink in them that could add heat to the system thus "muddying" the sound.

Thus, is an AVR with XT-32 run as a pre/pro as good as an actual pre/pro given the similar options and cost of the units?

Thanks

I don't know the answer to that. Of course, you'll get people who claim to hear sound differences based on how much techflex is used on their input cables.

Personally, I like the idea of using an AVR to drive the center and surrounds while using pre-outs to a big honking external amp to drive the mains.

Best,

I have a 7500 driving the mains, center, and surround main and my AVR is driving the surround backs. If I get a pre/pro then I would order a pair of 2200s to drive the surround backs OR is that just overkill?

Overkill is in the eye of the beholder. But yeah, you'd need to buy another 2 channels of amplification if you got a pre-pro rather than an AVR (and you wanted all 7 channels driven). Personally, I've yet to make the leap past 5.2.

Who was it that was recently opining that we wouldn't be seeing MultEQ XT32 in products selling for less than $2k anytime soon? lol

Best,

I want to preference this post with a little background that I may have posted before -- I have been an audio hobbyist for a long time. I worked in a little hi fi shop in college. I have been around both mainstream and more "speciality" audio products for going on 30 years. Over that time I have seen LOTS of products and I know what "trade-offs" basically all manufacturers are willing to make and I think I have a pretty good working understanding of what happens when some of those trade-offs that have pretty obvious sonic consequenses are baked into a system. I help out with "sound reinforcement" projects for local community groups. I get the hows and whys of things like sheilding and the subsequent effect that "noise" can have on eating power that would otherwise be availble for sound amplidication. OK, I do not have "golden ears". I do not waste huge sums of cash on magical products. I know that even some products with a legitimate techincal basis for "superiority" are not really going to manifest those differences except on test instruments.

Preface over.

I do not like or trust pretty much any mainstream AV reciever these days. Most have way too little sheilding, way too optimistic a power rating, fair too little attention to the basics. Low quality components that literally leak signal and have poor physical and thermal stability.


I do not think I am alone in this regard. In fact there is a legitimate "cottage industry" of people that can be called "audio hot rodders / performance modification specialists" that try to address these short comings. One such firm that occaisionally gets discussions lit up is "The Upgrade Company". While I do not doubt that they make a healthy profit on many of their enhancements, and some are likely " 'scope only " in nature, the fact is they charge $1400 to upgrade a top of the line Integra Pre-Pro which is already WAY better built than the run-of-the-mill Onkyo stuff. I am not going to say that Outlaw will deliver results that match the test results of the fully "hopped up" DHC 80.3, and it sure as heck will not be a ladden with features, but for those who get hung up price you really need a litttle perspective : The Upgrade Company Signature Edition DHC 80.3 Pre-Pro Gulp. $3,300 .

I mean, perspective, folks perspective...

Let me get this straight. You're implying that a small company like Outlaw will somehow use higher quality components in a processor (with less features) than a large multinational company using the same slave labor pool in China. And then people will pay a higher price for the privilege? Riiiiiiight.....<rolling eyes>

Well, you can go test drive those "substandard" Onkyo units today. If/when Outlaw ships a processor, then you can even compare them. Until then, I don't think you've got much of a leg to stand on WRT relative quality. Perspective is one thing...let's try reality for a change.

Was the Onkyo AVR that Outlaw was selling also substandard? How about the Marantz units they're selling today? Your Upgrade Company modifies those too. Does that mean the stock units are bad? Do tell. They also modify Mark Levinson components. Those must also have quality issues out of the box....

Best regards,

In a word, YES.

It is not much of a stretch to realize that volumes that an Onkyo or D&M contracts for creates a situation where both the inhouse designers and the production oriented engineers have an incentive to "cheapify" parts that a smaller firm is not going to bother messing with.

Save a few bucks on a run of hundreds of units won't amount to saving the same on tens of thousands of units.


My highest regards,

renov8r

<laughing>

You don't get over to China very often, do ya...