To be honest, after observing the MO of Outlaw these last 2-3 years, I wouldn't expect an update at this point until they almost ready to release the 978. I hope I'm wrong but...

If those rumors become a reality, this doesn't bode well for Outlaw, nor Emotiva for that matter. The 997 saga made Outlaw loose too much valuable time and the 978 has taken them too much time to develop, probably as a result of scarce financial resources for the project. If the Marantz processors show up within the same time frame as the 978, Ritz may be correct in predicting that the 978 will not sell too well.

That's interesting news from Marantz rubbersoul. They've bumped up their model numbering to 007 with these new receivers. I usually google about once a month for news of a Marantz AV8006 processor and figuring that it was about time for the next increment in their modeling nomenclature, in the last few months, I've also googled for AV8007. I was coming out empty. But seeing the article you referred above, I googled it again and found these rumors, in of all places, the Emotiva lounge (posted by corbaatje):

"There are rumors from the Hifi Berlin show that this year the Marantz AV 7007(with Audyssey XT32?) will be out late summer/fall, and the AV 8007 with Audyssey XT32+Pro will be out this year or the beginning off next year."

If those rumors become a reality, this doesn't bode well for Outlaw, nor Emotiva for that matter. The 997 saga made Outlaw loose too much valuable time and the 978 has taken them too much time to develop, probably as a result of scarce financial resources for the project. If the Marantz processors show up within the same time frame as the 978, Ritz may be correct in predicting that the 978 will not sell too well.

It's interesting how the new Marantz SR7007 reciver has 6 HDMI inputs an 3 HDMI outputs. It's the first time I see one with three HDMI outputs.

Doesn't look like XT32 is part of the mix, but the details for the new Marantz receivers are here:

http://www.bigpicturebigsound.com/Marant...Receivers.shtml

Shipping in July 2012

Another nail in the 978 coffin, I'm afraid. The 7007 has a pretty complete feature set. The only thing really missing are balanced pre-outs, but I can live with that.

Best,

Well some folks will certainly be banging the drum against the Marantz products for some of its failings (or country of origin...) and if Marantz was transparent enough to host a forum I'm sure enough "customers" would be be wailing and gnashing their teeth that at least some of the Marantz marketing guys would be terrified that their product will be a horrible flop too...

Unfortunately the 978 is yet to be released and we are almost half way through 2012. At this point it does not matter how good it is or what features it has or how much it costs. Outlaw is losing the interest of everyone that was focused on the 978. A decision to scrap the 978 and get out of the processor business is the likely next move. Even if they build it and market it they probably won't make enough $$$ to recoup the cost so they should cut their losses now. I still love their amps and subs and my 990 but the 978 is a lost cause for me.

If Marantz offers an AV7007 processor with just XT, then there's not a lot of reason to upgrade from the AV7005 IMO.

Too bad Denon didn't put XT32 in the 3313 either.

Where do I begin to agree on this. Xenonman this is painful to read what you are saying but sadly TRUE. As I said subtly before, Outlaw needs to get the 978 out NOW. Where you say that even if they build it they won't recoup any losses is something that I'm now seeing for myself. As much as they are working on the 978 to get it right, I don't think the market will even care at that point. Slow off the starting line and you loose the race. If they do get the 978 out and selling how long will those sales last and what is their next project after that one? I forsee a few good reviews on it and then very mediocre sales and it will fizzle out into oblivion.

Outlaw should refreshen their line. Bring out a two channel amp, bring out an AVR, bring out a quality bluray player...but mostly bring out something.

The possibility of Outlaw scrapping the processor as to not falling into a deeper financial pit may be the very next move as Xenonman just pointed out.

XT32 is still a differentiating item for me, so I think there is still value to putting out the 978. But yeah, the more delay there is, obviously, the more potential customers they lose.

It remains to be seen if XT vs XT32 provides much in the way of audible difference until we see some head to head comparisons. I'm a bit skeptical. Granted, higher resolution is nice to have, but I'm unconvinced that it makes a real difference in this application.

But imagine if Marantz releases an AV7007 at $1500 (like the present AV7005) and an AV8007 for about $2600 (like the AV8003) where they would both have XT32, the 978 would be squeezed in between those two much more feature rich processors. I'll tell you one thing, The 978 better sound as good or better than the AV8007 at the price point of the AV7007 if it's to even stand a chance in this battle. It better emulate what the Oppo BDP-95 has achieved in the BD player market in terms of SQ or forget it.

Lots of info about XT32 vs XT in the Audyssey thread at AVS. I'm not convinced XT32 is the quantum improvement over XT that a lot of the fanboys there feel it is, but I do believe it's a fundamental and significant if incremental improvement over XT.

Not just about the higher resolution of XT32's filters, but also how they are applied across the audio spectrum.

If the SR7007 only has XT, then I really doubt an AV7007 would have XT32.

I would agree otherwise. Let's say that if Marantz does do an AV8007 with XT32. I'd figure discounted to the ~$2250 level. The 978 would have to have a kickass analog output stage before I'd "jump ship" from the AV7005 to the 978 vs just "moving up" to the prospective AV8007. But I'd still certainly consider Outlaw as a competitor though.

But like a lot of people, I just use a processor for physical disc movies and music. I personally don't care about streaming and internet connectivity, aside from easy peasy f/w upgrades.

I am afraid the $1500 price will make many potential customers look elsewhere.

Even at $1000, it's a non-starter. Stick a fork in the 978 unless they're prepared to practically give it away. And even then....that's coming from a dyed in the wool Outlaw fan who owned an entire Outlaw system from soup to nuts.

Best,

As long as you check in every 2 years you won't miss many updates!!!

I'm getting married in September and would like to have everything finished,

Please check with your fiancee and ask her if she is willing to postpone the wedding and check for how long. Then get back to us or have her email Outlaw. If she does get an answer find out and post here ASAP.

Good luck on your wedding day.

As long as you check in every 2 years you won't miss many updates!!!

[quote=beyond 1000][quote=Retep]

Thanks, now help me escape!

Ha! That would be the end of me, especially since her entire family is traveling form New Zealand and they already have tickets.

It remains to be seen if XT vs XT32 provides much in the way of audible difference until we see some head to head comparisons. I'm a bit skeptical. Granted, higher resolution is nice to have, but I'm unconvinced that it makes a real difference in this application. I kinda like the Emotiva approach where they're apparently using embedded linux and fast DSPs. In theory, you should be able to upgrade to the latest/greatest code as long as the cpu has enough grunt to support it. I like that MUCH better than the ancien regime where you are basically tied to whatever was implemented on the day of manufacture plus or minus minor tweaks.

Best,

( cut a lot of tresoe stuff that has been rehashed too many times...)
As I previously posted weeks ago, one of the criticisms of MultEQ XT by many audiophiles is the relatively low number of filter points. This has led some owners of very high-end stereo systems to observe that MultEQ XT adds a veil to the original balance of the sound or decreases transparency; an observation not shared by all I might add.

I've owned a Tact Audio M2150 class D amp for over 10 years and I've followed the Tact Audio User's Group threads on Yahoo's Groups for many years. I was considering a few years ago to get into Tact's RCS solution (Room Correction System). Tact's RCS supports 10K filter points over the 20KHz audio range, effectively giving it a 2Hz resolution. The Tact Audio digital room correction technology being designed for a single listener position and not being affordable to me at $10K back then ($15K now) for the multichannel TCS processor and about $5K for the two-channel RCS preamplifier prompted me to wait patiently for many years for other similar technologies to mature. The anecdote about Tact Audio's RCS, admittedly coming from Tact RCS users themselves, is that you have to put your head in a vise not to loose most of the correction effect. Audyssey's MultEQ, similarly to Lyngdorf Audio's RoomPerfect, Peter Lyngdorf being the co-founder of Tact Audio until he left about 6 years later to start Lyngdorf Audio, are digital room correction technologies that have been designed to allow room correction over a fairly wide listening area. I personally find this capability fairly important unless you always listen alone but on movies, how many people from a family really watch alone?
Now that MultEQ XT32 also has over 10K filter points, my anecdotal observations from the various reviews I've read on it lead me to believe, and I could be wrong, that it has been embraced much more widely by the audiophile community, even by some of the previous critics of XT.

These days, all A/V processors and receivers that offer some form of digital room correction feature programmable DSPs as opposed to fixed-function DSPs like a decade ago. Tact Audio has being doing it for over 10 years and Audyssey for almost 10 years. The A/V processors and receivers that run MultEQ XT and XT32 typically feature a pair of TI's higher-end Aureus digital audio processors that integrate not only a DSP core but also an ARM RISC processor core. Those DSPs have to first decode the licensed audio codecs (DD, Dolby TrueHD, DTS, DTS Master Audio, FLAC, etc.) and then apply digital room correction on top or whatever else feature the user may have chosen. Audyssey like Dolby or DTS provide their software code to the licensees that run it on the DSPs and those licensing manufacturers have to integrate that code with other features of their own like customs control software and if they choose an embedded OS like Linux or QNX. And in theory, you're correct, they should be able to install new software features so long as the processor has enough power and specially if the system has enough RAM and flash ROM to be able to install them in the first place.

I'll leave you with a review of XT32 on the Integra DHC-80.2 A/V processor from Kalman Rubinson of Stereophile. Kalman has tested many of these digital room correction systems over the years including the Tact RCS, Lyngdorf RoomPerfect, Anthem ARC, etc.

You can also read this recent review of the Integra DTR-80.3 A/V Receiver on Secrets of Home Theater and High Fidelity where the reviewer gives his impressions of XT32.

Ideally, you'd have to find a dealer that sells a processor or receiver with XT32 and that also happens to have the older model of that same gear with XT from his used gear lot. Now if that dealer were to be kind and patient enough to setup a system with the XT gear and do the calibration, then allow you to listen to a few tracks and then insert the XT32 gear in place of the XT, that would be the best possible comparison. But in practice, finding a dealer with the necessary gear and the extra-ordinary patience and willingness to perform those tests is highly improbable.

The way things are going, Outlaw will be selling a Marantz SR5007 with the amps disabled before the 978 ships. Makes you almost wonder why they don't have Marantz create an OEM version of the 500x line every year without the power-amps and an Outlaw faceplate and call it the 91x.

Add another 6 months to the 978 ship date!!

Consider also, that Outlaw perceives us as audiophiles, and as such, may all have secondary systems that are above average and therefore we might want to buy a very good receiver for our second systems. Pretty good marketing as I see it.

As I have posted before, Outlaw would probably have been better served continuing with the partnership with Sherwood Newcastle and the Korean firm that made the 990.

Well said renov8r. Shoulda coulda woulda...

As outsiders we don’t know the terms and working relationship between Sherwood (Inkel??) and OutlawAudio. I had worked at a startup on a very innovative project (think along the line of Facebook but it was over 10 years ago :>). From that experience, I learned that there is a time it seems right just to walk away and cut your loss, no matter how promising the end product could be and how much blood and sweat you have put in. Perhaps I should have tried harder to stay on. No. I did not make a dime from that :<

Just want to add my .02 to the Sherwood R972.

After my new home theater room was finally completed early last year I was pounding on Scott’s door to be the first one to get the 978 (meanwhile using the 1070 as a stop gap). Months and quarters went by and still without the 978. Eventually I acquired a Sherwood R972 with Trinnov as a dare even after hearing all the initial horror stories from various forums. Honestly I was surprised how well Trinnov in the R972 works in my setup (R972 feeding the Outlaw 7125 amp driving PSB Synchrony Speakers). The sound field was simply amazing. I heard all the nuances I had never noticed before. Even my wife asked me if I upgraded the system and she cannot tell the difference between my ProAC Response 2S driven by Monarchy Audio gears and my JVC bookshelf system. The R972 does work relatively bug free in my setup but not without some annoyances. The GUI is dated and it’s very confusing to operate to select the different sound options (perhaps it’s just me). I am afraid to touch it after it is now configured :> It also takes a second or two for the R972 to lock on digital audio streams. Each time the audio stream is “paused” like when you pause a movie, it takes another second or so for it to lock on again. For movies it is not that much of an issue since you don’t skip around too much. However, it gets more annoying when you jump from channel to channel watching cable TVs. Perhaps this is a hardware/design limitation since multiple firmware updates did not eliminate that delay. From following the R972 since it came out end of 2009 (I believe) it took Sherwood months and months if not a year to get most of the kinks out. Hey by the way, I heard their latest firmware 1.48 introduces loud pops via HDMI (since I only use SPDIF for digital audio, I have not noticed any issue yet) that many people had to roll back to 1.47. Outlaw might not even have a choice other than walking away from Sherwood. I am sure they did not expect all the delays associated with their 978.

'

When I read posts like yours and renov8r regarding Trinnov, it just makes me wish Outlaw would have produce a pre with Trinnov even more. What a bummer.

BTW When I demo'd a Sherwood 972 at my local audio dealer's shop I knew that the "flaw" of dropping the audio when changing TV stations while still attached to the same source was a total deal killer that my family would not put up with. The dealer''s honesty in tellling me he did believe it would be possible for any "firm ware" to change that prevented me from pulling the trigger on that purchase. I trust that his knowledge of all the details that would have been needed to re-engineer the whole HDMI layer on that device was correct. I suspect the Outlaws may have learned the same thing and I suspect that the lessons they learned from that will make their upcoming offerings the kind of products that you listen to ALL THE TIME, as opposed to the sort of product that your wife / kids relegate to "dad's pile of stuff that we think sucks despite how much he spent on it" ...

When I read posts like yours and renov8r regarding Trinnov, it just makes me wish Outlaw would have produce a pre with Trinnov even more. What a bummer.

Retep,
I know what you mean. For quite a while I was keeping my hopes up that Outlaw might revisit the Trinnov Optimizer option one day after 978. Until recently Outlaw was listed as a Licensing partner on Trinnov Audio's web site but it has since been removed. Only Sherwood (Licensing) and ADA (OEM) are on Trinnov's site now. I am not holding my breath for an Trinnov offering from Outlaw Audio any time in the near future. Like you said.. what a bummer.

make their upcoming offerings the kind of products that you listen to ALL THE TIME, as opposed to the sort of product that your wife / kids relegate to "dad's pile of stuff that we think sucks despite how much he spent on it" ...

RItz, I'm not sure if you've noticed, but the 978 won't be an AVR. I don't think that anyone looking at the 978 is in the market for an AVR. If you believe an AVR is a substitute for a Pre-Pro, well, good luck to you. Oranges and Apples. And you're also looking at Onkyo. Onkyo. Oranges and Apples.

As far as I'm concerned, an AVR with pre-outs is the same as a pre-pro. All of the units I mentioned have pre-outs. Outlaw would seem to feel the same way since their "temporary" pre-pro offerings have all been AVR's.

Hey Ritz

Can you give me some helpful information here. I thought that actual pre/pros would have a cleaner more neutral signal path since they do not have and amplifier with larger heatsink in them that could add heat to the system thus "muddying" the sound.

Thus, is an AVR with XT-32 run as a pre/pro as good as an actual pre/pro given the similar options and cost of the units?

Thanks

I have a 7500 driving the mains, center, and surround main and my AVR is driving the surround backs. If I get a pre/pro then I would order a pair of 2200s to drive the surround backs OR is that just overkill?

In a word, YES.

It is not much of a stretch to realize that volumes that an Onkyo or D&M contracts for creates a situation where both the inhouse designers and the production oriented engineers have an incentive to "cheapify" parts that a smaller firm is not going to bother messing with.

Save a few bucks on a run of hundreds of units won't amount to saving the same on tens of thousands of units.

I do not like or trust pretty much any mainstream AV reciever these days. Most have way too little sheilding, way too optimistic a power rating, fair too little attention to the basics. Low quality components that literally leak signal and have poor physical and thermal stability.

Interesting, I have searched for Magazine reviews that could back up a claim like this for years in either Sound & Vision or Home Theater lab results. I am not an expert at interpreting the results but I see similar readings (most outstanding according to the review techs) in most AVR’s and Pre/Pro at all price levels.

I recently replaced my Outlaw 950 with a Yamaha RX-A700 (cheap AVR) and I don’t think I am missing anything. In addition, I cannot tell the difference between the internal amp in the AVR vs my external Outlaw amp when using the A700 pre-outs. In fact my OmniMic cannot tell the difference either when recording frequency response. Seems like the technology today is darn good at all levels, at least to my ears and frequently published lab reviews. I am sure there are subtle differences in a properly tuned system and room but I don’t think I could hear them.

Bob

Someone should call Onkyo and tell them they're doing it wrong selling 3 to 5 different levels of each product class. Or maybe they're doing it right since the only thing that they actually have to change is the name plate, because obviously the insides are the same on all of them.

I haven't seen an AVR with balanced pre-outs. I won't buy a pre-pro without them.

A factory in China will produce the same quality product produced in a factory anywhere else on earth so long as the people responsible for payment manage the process to their own standards. Dell and Apple computers are made in China and they're worlds apart in component and construction quality. An AVR and Pre-Pros being made in China don't have to have anything at all to do with each other, even if they're produced in the same factory.

Onkyo isn't crap and any dig I made was only to imply it's a largely mass-market brand producing mass-market goods. A small shop like Outlaw can easily specify better components for their smaller production runs.

If Outlaw was building a clone of a mainstream AVR without the amps, I'm pretty confident we'd have seen the 978 out a few years ago. That's not something terribly difficult to have a factory turn around.

Total BS. There is one thing that holds the attention of factories in China....cold hard cash...and lots of it. As a small buyer, you have an insignificant amount of power and little control over timing of production or quality of components. A Chinese supplier will lie to your face on an ongoing basis and then dare you to sue them (in China) for breach of contract. Been there, done that (and I speak pretty fluent Chinese). This is why I was chuckling back in January when Outlaw said Scott was "going over there" to get a status update during a time in the year when almost zero work gets done in China and people are traveling to their hometowns for lengthy new years celebrations. And here we are 7 months later and <shock>, the product still isn't here.




They're probably kicking themselves that they didn't take this route. Here we are 4 years later and they're still re-selling product from Marantz instead of an Outlaw branded processor while their own design has languished in vapor land. They've also been repeatedly leapfrogged by the industry on features while they continue off in the weeds with their supplier. Not particularly confidence inspiring. A dollar short and a day late, I'm afraid. I'm trying to discuss this without sounding harsh, but it's a harsh world out there...and the facts are not particularly kind to Outlaw in this case.

Best,

This China-bashing is getting a bit repetitive and tiring.

You want reality? Have I been to China? Several times. I have ODM's there. If you specify features and performance specs (the normal process), your ODM will buy the cheapest parts they possibly can to produce the product that meets your performance specs. Period. Country of origin has nothing to do with it. Pick an ODM in any country and the same manufacturing process takes place - they will buy the cheapest parts possible - it's economic sense. If you want premium performance, then you specify exactly what parts will give you that performance and your ODM will buy those components (and charge you ) and they will be in your product. Again, same situation around the world. This China-bashing is getting a bit repetitive and tiring.

No kidding. At the moment, the best products in the world are not only manufactured in China, they can only be manufactured in China.

If you're Apple, Dell, or some big electronics conglomerate I'm sure the rules are very different (mostly because they are big enough to enforce meaningful financial penalties for not following the "rules"). They're also big enough to have their own QA staff *on site* to get timely reports on both quality and production snafus. You can also afford to hire a local "consultant" to bribe local officials and business owners with money/cars/girls/etc while denying that you're involved in foreign corruption. If you're a small-time operator occasionally ordering a run of a few hundred units of consumer electronics...good luck. Outsourcing software design to them on top of the hardware integration and manufacturing is downright foolish. Short of not paying them, you (the collective you) have zero levers to control the process. So as a consumer, if I'm stuck buying product from China, who do I want on my team if there are problems with my shiny new device? A big multi-national that can support the product on their own or a company with a no technical people who will call up their "Chinese partner" to deal with bugs? (that was a rhetorical question for the sarcasm impaired) Does that mean every small company is going to get boned in China? No, but it is VERY common.

If we were talking about Cars, then I wouldn't have said the best products in the world were manufactured in China. Germanany (by a large wide margin over anywhere else), Japan and South Korea still take the lion's share for quality in my opinion, with the USA a very distant fourth, and then only with respect to companies headquartered outside the USA.

Oppo is a chinese company BTW.

Oppo is a chinese company BTW.

Oppo is a diamond in the rough. I think they're based in Shenzen (near Hong Kong). They've got a marketing arm in the US and do their manufacturing in China. So in this case you've got a forward thinking Chinese company with an eye towards quality (instead of lowest price point), and a clever group of marketing folks in the developed world. How clever? Clever enough to cut a deal with Lexicon to essentially take an Oppo DVD player (in its entirety), place it in a slightly bigger chassis, and sell it for a multiple of the cost of buying the exact player from Oppo.

http://www.audioholics.com/reviews/trans...xicon-outside-1

That's quite a bit different from a fabless western company scrambling to find a cheap manufacturer for their next widget. I'm sure Peter has decades more experience than I, but the last couple of years of watching Outlaw (after being a big fan and customer for years) leave me scratching my head. This is not the way forward and is likely to be fatal to their aspirations of being a gateway to the audiophile world. I hope they are able to keep the lights on, but I remain skeptical of this outcome.

Best,

give America a little more credit. Intel, IBM, AMD, TI, Analog Devices, Motorola, Marvell just to name a few, are all great American companies that design and manufacture some of the most complex electronic and ICs in the world.

And none of the complicated and best known ones manufactured in the USA.

And none of the complicated and best known ones manufactured in the USA.

The world leading consumer electronics company, Apple, headquartered in Cupertino California with offices all over the world, has the majority of its products manufactured in China, with some components sourced from other countries, also primarily in Asia (Korea, Japan, etc.) Some quantity of their mobile offerings are now also built in Brazil - likely with components all shipped from Foxconn in China.

These world-class product are not only *not* made in the USA, they are not possible to build in the USA today.

Sure, there's corruption in China. There's corruption everywhere in the world to varying degrees. I don't think that has anything to do with the ability to make a quality product.

Sure, there's corruption in China. There's corruption everywhere in the world to varying degrees. I don't think that has anything to do with the ability to make a quality product.

With regards to BMW if you haven't owned an 8 year old BMW, it's not fair to comment. I have, and the previous comment is about repair costs is BS.

What if the supply chain manager buys lower quality capacitors, transistors and other components while pocketing the cost difference, don't you think that the finished product will be of inferior quality? Then like Ritz says, try suing them in a Chinese court... good luck!

You know, if you naysayers are so damned fed up I am going to suggest that you do the "internet forum" equivalent of Seppuku -- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seppuku -- POST YOUR PASSWORD RIGHT HERE IN OPEN TEXT. That will allow anyone to take over you account, delete all your posts and tidy up the mess you've left behind.