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#90390 - 05/21/12 09:03 AM Re: 978 Release Date [Re: akiddoc]
S. Sharkey Offline
Gunslinger

Registered: 03/15/12
Posts: 78
Loc: Canada
I think Outlaw was fine until HDMI came along. It walloped a lot of higher end companies too. And the Trinnov thing didn't help, but now that all of that is behind them, it should be easier to bring a pre-pro to market.
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#90391 - 05/21/12 12:48 PM Re: 978 Release Date [Re: Ulli Pietsch]
Kevin C Brown Offline
Desperado

Registered: 12/11/01
Posts: 1054
Loc: Santa Clara, CA
Originally Posted By: Ulli Pietsch
I also prefer physical media when there is a quality difference. A year ago or so I was looking into streaming video and found this comparison table (may be out of date now).
http://www.reelseo.com/video-quality-comparison-reference-table/


This matches my observation that "HD" from Dish and DirecTV aren't much better than a good upscaled DVD. And that is still true today. Not like it's gotten any better. If anything, Dish and DirecTV might have gotten worse because of their neverending desire to cram more mediocre channels into the same limited bandwidth.
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#90392 - 05/21/12 01:33 PM Re: 978 Release Date [Re: anjora]
jam Offline
Gunslinger

Registered: 03/21/12
Posts: 93
Loc: Montreal, QC, Canada
Originally Posted By: anjora
bluray is also far from perfect, still disc size of 50GB(dual layer) is big for being a 5 year old technology, if there up to 10TB optical comes it will take a while for harddrives to catch up, the problem will be to keep the cost down. fibre optics has enough bandwidth for blu-ray quality streaming.

many people today today haven't heard a good mastered lossless album and therefore don't know what they are missing. i switched to flac using $20 logitech speakrs and the difference was so big i didn't beleave my ears until i did some blind testing and converted the song myself, after that i startet to listend to music for real, this was with poor mastered music.

still there will always be claims like "you can't hear difference between flac and good mp3". maby it's the same thing for movies. ofcourse you will enjoy it much more with quality setup, the bottleneck here is the source just as with mp3 files.

i actually think model 978 will be released within 3 mounts. it is good news for people who want a affordable unit with audyssey xt32 and good dacs.


Of course Blu-ray isn't perfect; nothing ever is in this world of ours. Blu-ray uses MPEG 4 for compression instead of MPEG 2 that was used for DVD. MPEG 2 is regarded as providing better PQ but isn't as compressible as MPEG 4. Because of the increase in resolution to 1080P together with the sufficient quality and higher compression ratios obtained through MPEG 4, it was chosen not only for Blu-ray but also for the now defunct HD-DVD.

Fiber optics should have enough bandwidth to allow 1080P video at the same quality as Blu-ray. But fiber optics is very expensive to deploy, specially in large countries like the US and Canada. It becomes cheaper and feasible for large metropolitan areas with high population densities but in small rural areas, the high cost makes it much less appealing. You must also consider the networking infrastructure needed to support the high bandwidth attainable by the fiber optics, i.e. the large routers. All this together makes it quite expensive.

I'm glad that you can discern the SQ difference between FLAC and MP3 in such a modest setup. Most people nowadays unfortunately don't care, choosing the convenience of storing thousands of terrible sounding MP3s in little storage space over the sound quality of FLAC or uncompressed audio.

I hope your shipping prediction for the 978 comes before mine (November 14).

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#90393 - 05/21/12 01:40 PM Re: 978 Release Date [Re: Ulli Pietsch]
jam Offline
Gunslinger

Registered: 03/21/12
Posts: 93
Loc: Montreal, QC, Canada
Originally Posted By: Ulli Pietsch
I also prefer physical media when there is a quality difference. A year ago or so I was looking into streaming video and found this comparison table (may be out of date now).
http://www.reelseo.com/video-quality-comparison-reference-table/
I also found that uncompressed, a Blu-ray would produce a bitrate of 3000 Mbits/sec. So at 40 Mbits/sec, Blu-ray discs are already are fairly compressed with a 75 to 1 compression ratio.

For music I am OK with the lossless compression such a Apple Lossless which has a 2 to 1 compression ratio (or there abouts). Most people though are just fine listening to music that has been severely compressed using really poor equipment.


That said, I use NetFlix to get access to content that is not available elsewhere and am willing to put up with the reduction in quality for the low cost and great convenience.


Nice comparison table! Thanks for the link. I've saved the page for future reference. This supports what many of us here have been stating in recent posts and what we've observed through the last decade or so.

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#90394 - 05/21/12 01:47 PM Re: 978 Release Date [Re: akiddoc]
jam Offline
Gunslinger

Registered: 03/21/12
Posts: 93
Loc: Montreal, QC, Canada
Originally Posted By: akiddoc
Outlaw made a mistake in trying to become a cutting edge company. They don't have the money or size to pull it off. They could have come out with a 1.3 with Audyssey 2 years ago, combined it with superior components, and made a killing at the right price point. Better to do what's already done and do it at a better price point. Oppo showed the way.


Yes Oppo showed the way but unfortunately they didn't want to get into the business of developing a processor like the 978 despite the many requests of Oppo loyalists as Gonk reported in a previous post.

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#90395 - 05/21/12 02:15 PM Re: 978 Release Date [Re: jam]
anjora Offline
Gunslinger

Registered: 05/06/12
Posts: 22
i still have these logitech speakers. i am using a better setup atm($400). i have uninstalled spotify long time ago and i only listend to good mastered music now. the speakers is from a swedish company "dynavoice dm-5" so the bottleneck should be the room. i can hear difference between sampling rates with my current setup(ribbon tweeters).

with the result in the hand it's always easy to say what should have bean done and what shouldn't, model 978 is a great example of that after 2 year delay, i doubt outlaw counted with that when they decided to include stuff like hdmi 1.4a. i don't know about a single prepro or reciever without issues like audio dropout at launch, it might be worth the longer time it took if model 978 is bugfree from start.


Edited by anjora (05/21/12 02:18 PM)

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#90396 - 05/21/12 02:24 PM Re: 978 Release Date [Re: S. Sharkey]
jam Offline
Gunslinger

Registered: 03/21/12
Posts: 93
Loc: Montreal, QC, Canada
Originally Posted By: S. Sharkey
I think Outlaw was fine until HDMI came along. It walloped a lot of higher end companies too. And the Trinnov thing didn't help, but now that all of that is behind them, it should be easier to bring a pre-pro to market.


I believe that the Trinnov episode with Sherwood hurt Outlaw more than anything.

As for HDMI, there are tons of devices that use it in the market, not only A/V gear like receivers, DVD/BD players but also a multitude of small boxes like the Rokus, Apple TV, etc. To implement HDMI, an EE designer chooses a System-on-chip (SoC) like those from Analod Devices or others that integrate all the HDMI functionality (transmitters, receivers and switches). The complexity really comes after HDMI. When you have to integrate a pair of general purpose DSPs with a memory subsystem running some form of room correction into a bus along with all the other circuits (HDMI, S/PDIF, DACs, etc.) and then control everything with some proprietary software or an imbedded OS. All of this requires a lot of digital circuit design and low-level programming expertise from a team of engineers; the R&D involved is complex and expensive.

In the days of DVD with Dolby digital and DTS with no room correction, A/V processors and receivers used mostly off-the-shelve ICs and fixed-functionality DSPs that provided most of the features. There was much less routing and custom processing of the data involved.

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#90397 - 05/21/12 02:36 PM Re: 978 Release Date [Re: anjora]
jam Offline
Gunslinger

Registered: 03/21/12
Posts: 93
Loc: Montreal, QC, Canada
Originally Posted By: anjora
i still have these logitech speakers. i am using a better setup atm($400). i have uninstalled spotify long time ago and i only listend to good mastered music now. the speakers is from a swedish company "dynavoice dm-5" so the bottleneck should be the room. i can hear difference between sampling rates with my current setup(ribbon tweeters).


These dynavoice dm-5 speakers have an interesting design at a very affordable price. I like ribbon speakers. They remind me a lot of the Ikon line of speakers made by DALI of Denmark.

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#90398 - 05/21/12 03:43 PM Re: 978 Release Date [Re: jam]
Ritz2 Offline
Desperado

Registered: 01/27/09
Posts: 414
Loc: Virginia
Originally Posted By: jam
Originally Posted By: anjora
i still have these logitech speakers. i am using a better setup atm($400). i have uninstalled spotify long time ago and i only listend to good mastered music now. the speakers is from a swedish company "dynavoice dm-5" so the bottleneck should be the room. i can hear difference between sampling rates with my current setup(ribbon tweeters).


These dynavoice dm-5 speakers have an interesting design at a very affordable price. I like ribbon speakers. They remind me a lot of the Ikon line of speakers made by DALI of Denmark.


You get what you pay for in this case. From what I've read, it seems the speakers are well constructed, but don't sound particularly good. Pretty speakers are nice. Pretty speakers that don't sound very good...not so nice. smile For about the same $$$ you can get a pair of lower end Polks like the TSI200/300 and likely get better sound if you're on a budget. The Polks aren't particularly pretty, nor are they the greatest sounding, but the TSI line seems to be a nice balance between affordable and competent sound quality.

Best,


Edited by Ritz2 (05/21/12 03:48 PM)
Edit Reason: forgot something
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#90401 - 05/21/12 06:09 PM Re: 978 Release Date [Re: Ritz2]
anjora Offline
Gunslinger

Registered: 05/06/12
Posts: 22
I have read a lot about them and most info says the are comparible with much higher priced speakers soundwise. http://www.hififorum.nu/artiklar/DynavoiceDFDM5/2.html the tnt audio review was the second to complain about the intensity of the treamble. Many people states they need a lot of time to break in but sounds really good after that, "brake in" usally means getting used to the new sound. Dynavoice definition us meant to play clean and somehow neatral for the price, i wasn't able to listend to speakers si it was a bit of gamble, i think it turned out good.

As for hdmi:
There is currently 3 standards used, hdmi, dvi, displayport. Displayport seams to be much better than hdmi but unfortionatly it's mostly used in computer monitors, a single displayport cable may replace 2 dvi cables and one usb cable!

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