>This is very hard stuff and the technology companies keep moving the goal posts. Our own goal is to deliver a product that does not need constant updates over a year or more.<

Certainly an admiral goal and one reason I enjoy purchasing from Outlaw. It does make me wonder how companies like Yamaha or Denon as an example, release multiple receivers year after year. Is it the large internal resources these companies can leverage between design and manufacturing which allow this?
-Bob

Bob, two things impact the pace of release from companies like Denon and Yamaha. First, they have multiple products that are variants on a single core architecture. Second, new models frequently make only incremental changes to existing designs, while replacement architecture spends longer being developed by other teams. Third, they have a lot more R&D resources, which helps with the development of those different variants and with throwing a lot of manpower on dealing with problems like HDMI. (They also have been known to "resolve" bugs that slip through their R&D teams by making a new model that incorporates a fix and letting the older model stay broken.)

Outlaw has historically resisted the "new model year" approach. Like OPPO and some other smaller companies, they keep products in production a lot longer rather than finding an excuse to change a couple details and roll out new model numbers.

thanks peter. I am still waiting for the 978.

Peter wrote:
Peter: my experience too as you recalled. Hardware engineers are fairly accurate with their development time estimates, BUT it's a different animal with software guys - software/firmware has caused delays with every product and the cycle continues: I remind teams and their management to be careful in the software estimates and add a month or more, but Marketing's product road map release dates seem to always be cast in stone.
Will you be at CES? If so, and you're in a booth/room, I'll try to drop by and say 'hi'. If you'll just be 'visiting', let's meet and I'll buy you a tequila.

Bob: +1 to what Gonk wrote.

AND, to all you gunslingers, The Outlaws, guests and spiders:
HAPPY NEW YEAR! We'll all be listening to and enjoying our 978's in 2012!

I wii be back in the Venetian again where Atlantic and Parasound will share a room. If I have time I will be happy to show you a product that might also be released in an Outlaw version.

Peter

And therein lies the rub with smaller firms outsourcing manufacturing to China. Even for relatively simple manufacturing (think auto parts or furniture), the environment is rife with fraud, dishonesty, and lack of efficiency. Now complicate that with "language barriers", a joke of a legal system (so there's little or no recourse for contract breaches...especially if the victim is a foreign entity) and a "just good enough" to pass initial inspection attitude. And that's for simple manufacturing. It gets much worse when you're dealing with more intellectual endeavors such as software development. Been there, done that. Good luck if/when this thing ships trying to get software bug fixes and updates. I don't wish Outlaw bad luck, this this has all the hallmarks of an epic fail, both for Outlaw and for consumers who wind up with the gear if/when it ships.

It would have made more sense, once they decided to go to the dark side of Chinese manufacturing, to partner with a deep pocketed (they're already in bed with D&M holdings so that would have potentially worked) who has the financial strength and the staffing to have assets on the ground 24/7 to manage the development process (like Apple and major consumer electronics manufacturers do).

Seems like we end every year with Outlaw "on the cusp" of releasing a long delayed product. I hope they manage to get this one right, but I'm (obviously) not very optimistic.

Happy new year to all. Xin nian kuai le!

Best,

One of the most difficult things I've dealt with working with people "over there" is the fact that "they" will have one conversation in their native language and then tell you something totally different in english.

For example. I was at our company plant and the folks there had a discussion about one of our questions in their native language. My friend leaned over and said "These guys have forgotten I talk their languague. They're talking about what they did on vacation." And this was a plant that we owned. It can only get worse from there.

We never sent a team to an offshore entity without making sure we had at least one person who could talk the native lanuguage.

Aside from the delays, why does this have the hallmarks of an epic fail?

Peter, I'll definitely look you up in that room.

I think the "internal delays" are too easy to get swallowed up in when the manufacturer / marketer is as "open" as Outlaw...

The "competition" for the 978 largely DOES NOT EXIST -- while I suspect MOST eventual buyers of the 978 will "cross shop" offerings from firms like Marantz, Integra, NAD, Anthem and other higher quality firms the feature set and value offered by Outlaw with a full line of amps to pair with with 978 and its balanced audio outputs is unlikely to really be rivaled by a larger company (or even other online firms that have problems of their own)...

This past week I helped a friend install a new ceiling mount projector in his dedicated media room. The hassles we encountered trying to get his also new LG BluRay player to interface with his not that old Yamaha receiver were maddening. I can only imagine the sorts of headaches that HDCP / HDMI integration have caused for all the 978 build partners. In a way I can understand how these sorts of things drive companies to offer "modular" type pre-amp processors, but having also been in the I/T field since before the Interwebs I also know that HW issues are far more "linear" than the kinds of SW issues that have to be resolved with each iteration of an interface. Sending out "beta" or "alpha" SW to paying customers is not a way to succeed in the marketplace...

I have a mixed bag of experience with off shore production. For firms that have the right kind of partners, that will not work against efforts to build a valuable relationship, the much reduced production costs can be used to deliver products at a price point that otherwise would not be achievable. If the partner has a "side door" that results in very dark grey market products reaching the distribution channel of course the result can be disastrous. Outlaw largely has a single head-end for their channel and ought not to have to worry about such things. Depending on the ultimate volume of shipped 978s the level of out-the-door quality control that they provide should similarly result in VERY satisfied customers...

So long as the Outlaws provide the kind of depth of technical support that has become their hallmark I have no fears that the 978 will be a feature-rich and superlative sounding device that will be the literal hub of high quality home entertainment systems for years to come.

I hope I don't come off as polyannishly optimistic -- I have been an audio / video enthusiast for a LOOOOOONG time and think back fondly to a time when local audio chains like Playback, United Audio, Musiccraft and others flourished in Chicago alongside national firms like Pacific Audio. The contraction of quality A/V retailers has lead to a lot of junky products and poorly run firms being the unfortunate norm. Even for folks that spend HUGE sums of money on home theatre / whole house audio the longevity of equipment tends to be poor and the complexity of offerings intrudes on the ability to enjoy a nice picture with realistic sound.

My experiences so far suggest that the Outlaws understand that the forces that collapsed previous eras of home electronics centered around failing to deliver products at a good value and so long as they do ship products that stack up well they should continue to be successful...