Years ago, after I got out of the Navy, I worked as an ET at Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory. It was operated by the University of California. There was a vote for us technicians to unionize. I did not feel the need for a union and voted that way. A majority of those that voted felt the same way and so the union did not get into LLNL. LLNL is now under different management and I have heard that it is nowwhere near as benign as UC was.

I now work at SLAC, which is managed by Stanford University. There is a union for various trades. It strikes me as a fairly weak union, but it does afford some basic protections. I can see the need for a union at SLAC due to the way management treats people. If there was a vote again for a union and I was allowed to vote, I would vote for one at SLAC.

That's what I am saying just protection so you are paid a descent wage and treated fairly by management.

I have been a union worker for close to 35 years. The above is true that unions for the most part work to ensure good wages, benefits and that members are treated fairly. I will say that unions are not perfect and I have seen the good and the bad. But in the end I am very glad to have worked in a union environment for as long as I have.

The biggest issue I see from some members in my union is they do not get involved in local matters. Those members are the ones usually complaining the most about one thing or the other. Pretty much like the person that complains about goverment affairs but doesn't vote.

Bill

The union bash is a red herring. While I agree that the labor unions in the US have been complicit in the mass exodus of industry from the US and have largely outlived their usefulness, it doesn't really factor in here. The cost of labor as a percentage of the cost of producing an audio receiver is relatively small. The bottom line is that small companies like Outlaw don't WANT to own their own production capacity. They are simply creating a product using a mixture of components already in production and designed by others to create a finished product with their name plate on it. Their value proposition is limited to a friendly service staff, quality documentation and (to the extent possible) software tweaks on top of the commodity hardware. So if they want to maximize their profit, they need to keep their supply chain lean and confine production to where all the components are produced. That doesn't mean they couldn't assemble things here, but that doesn't maximize their return on what is likely going to be units shipped in the low thousands.

To be honest, it hardly seems worth the effort when the large players in the industry are able to more quickly come to market with current product and enjoy more profitable economies of scale in the production process. I'll be curious to see what the Outlaw (and Emotiva) product looks like under the covers and see how it differs (if at all) on the software front from whoever is selling it to them as an OEM.

So it's ultimately up to consumers like us to decide if we want to feed this system that is encouraging a transfer of wealth to a hostile country or do we shop for brands that choose another path (potentially a more expensive path for the consumer) that results in trade with domestic companies and/or companies trading in countries that aren't actively trying to subvert our economy (and ultimately our ability to buy their gadgets).

Best,

I think the different viewpoints that have come out in this thread are very interesting, and that most of them, while different, are all still valid in one way or another.

It's a complicated issue to be sure.

Do you seriously think Emotiva and Outlaw are using the same manufacturer? Or are you suggesting there is some manufacturer that is selling another "box" with the same features as the forth coming Outlaw pre-pro? Or one from Emotiva?

???

I think you are mistaken in how low volume electronics contract manufacturing works.


Even when Outlaw was still using the parent of Sherwood-Newcastle as a "manufacturing partner" there was NO reciever under development for Outlaw and there was no non-powered pre-pro being cooked up for SherNew...

The world of contract electronics is not like the days of Buick slapping a different label on the same platform as Chevy / Olds / Poncho. The "VALUE ADD" work is done by electronic designers / engineers that own / work for the stateside firms. Often they build a "wire wrap" hand built proto-type to verify that the stuff that, on paper, ought to sound good / not melt down / emits nothing scary REALLY does all that it is supposed to. The contract shop MIGHT have folks to do PCB boards OR they'll expect the client to deliver "production ready" board layouts that came together AFTER the wire wrap stage... There is no "upsell name plate" nor is the same product going to another firm. The "leanness" truly mean that the low value / low skill stuff that is better done by contractors close to the component supplier(s) makes not just a price point possible, but a whole "laborless assembly" firm to exist.

{btw I don't have enough evidence to either support or refute the assertion that there is some kind of strategy to "subvert our economy" by anyone either inside or outside our borders but somehow I think it is an awful long stretch to think the best way to do this is by pitting folks like the crew in EveAnna's photo tour against who knows how many / few folks in China that probably prefer life in a crowded factory dorm to life in a subsistence level Mao era farm town, but then again Kurschev probably had three shoes with him at the UN...}

Suggest you take in less caffeine and re-read my posting slowly. I doubt Outlaw and Emotiva are using the same OEM. My comment is simply that they're both very low volume niche sales outlets for gear assembled by 3rd parties in China for them. As such, I'll be curious to see what lives inside the boxes when they (eventually) ship.

And if you can't see the Chinese government strategy to subvert our manufacturing economy then there's not a whole lot I can say. Pick up any newspaper, search google, and open your eyes. They're not even particularly interested in hiding it anymore.

Best,

Most pre/pros and receivers from all of the various manufacturers share some common components such as DAC's, video processing chips and room correction software. However, with receivers you will notice that for the most part the amplifier architecture is different between brands. With prep/pros it's a little more vague, but most companies develop their own product prototypes and then outsource the manufacturing. Some may be produced by the same foreign manufacturing firm, but the end results are unique.

I'm sure when the 978 arrives and it can be compared to the Emotiva products as well as others, there will be noticeable differences.

I'm not going to touch the Chinese topic but being in the furniture and cabinet making field, it pains me to learn of the closing of numerous North and South Carolina furniture and cabinetmaking companies as they move production over seas. I don't have the answers as to why, but it's painful to read the stories.

Are stateside firms designing the 978 or is that all done overseas as well?

Bob

IIRC, Peter T had previously posted that the software/firmware programming was being done in China. I have not seen any comments about the electrical design.