Hate a specific country's manufacturing ineptitude? Come here to bash away...

Got a bone to pick with the troubles associated with production issues? Open your spleen...

Want to point out the other products that will relieve you of a need to wait for the 978? Type away...

(admins -- no offense taken if this thread is soon locked / deleted, but I would appreciate not being banned as I have been a lurker for almost a decade....)

Lurk away... we'll discuss what we want.

I saw some other posts in a Model 978 thread that thought I'd use this thread to make a few observations. These may be impacted by exhaustion and the distraction of a painfully long task list that needs to get dealt with before the end of next week, but for whatever reason I'm compelled to toss them into the mix...

1. The posts that triggered this thread seemed fairly benign to me. Outlaw accepts that the delays bringing a new processor to market are going to lead some consumers to look elsewhere - they've never shied away from this reality - and the competitors being discussed were all pretty solid options. Some have experienced problems, such as some HDMI board failures in a few Onkyo models, which is useful information to have when trying to make decisions. Most of the products being discussed in that thread were similar in price to the Model 978 or more expensive, if it matters. So far, no one has ever been taken to task by Outlaw for discussing other products in this forum, and as long as such discussions are kept civil and open-minded I don't see that changing, even when it occurs as somewhat off-topic chatter in a thread about an Outlaw product.

2. That particular thread (at least in recent weeks) hadn't focused much on where products were manufactured, but it has been discussed before in a number of threads and it will come up again. There are some people whose purchasing decisions are strongly swayed by the product's country of origin. Some of it is done as a way to avoid "higher risk" manufacturing sources, but it is more often done as a way to support alternatives that (potentially with higher first cost) are not built in those countries. The main country that people are avoiding in this regard is China - quality products can be built there with proper supervision and care in selecting a manufacturing partner, but the global economic impact of shifting more and more manufacturing there is something that not everyone wants to support with their own dollars. That is their choice, and it is going to be a subject of discussion whether you choose to make the same choice or not. I commend folks in this forum for making significant efforts to keep such discussion civil, and Outlaw has in past discussions been open about how economic pressures have led them to certain decisions while respecting some customers' decision to pass on Chinese-built products. (They've also made efforts to stick with domestic manufacturing for some product lines, even though it means they have to charge more.)

3. I've spent time in some forums where moderation is fairly active (even got banned from one of them, although that was a pretty extreme situation). This is not such a forum. It helps that traffic is light, but we also try to keep each other honest. The only formal moderation that I've seen done recently is nuking obvious spammers every so often. Only a handful of threads have ever been locked, and only a couple users ever banned. I don't know why you or your thread would be a turning point in this regard.

4. All that having been said, if folks wish to use this thread for its intended purpose, they of course can and will do so.

I am guilty of being one that tries to buy domestically made products. It gets harder as the years progress. As hard as I have tried only 7 out of 12 of my components are made in the US. (Fortunately for me, my Maggies are made in Minnesota)

It was hard for me to handle the fact that even Craftsman is manufacturing tools in China. That was my mainstay of “Made in USA”.

Lexicon is coming out with a new processor. I believe it will be made in the US. But at over $10,000, it is beyond what I would be willing to spend. My point being that if you are willing to spend significantly more, you can get products NOT made in China. And you have to be diligent in doing so. But if bang for your buck is paramount, you won’t find it domestically made products.

The reality is, and this has been the case for years now, something can qualify and advertise as being "Made in the USA" or should I qualify that by saying it is "Assembled in the USA", however, if you open it up and look inside you will find most assuredly that the parts come from the "Far East".

While that may be true, I personally (perhaps I'm in the minority) prefer to spend my money with companies that:

a. Produce/assemble product here.
b. If (a) is not possible, then I would prefer to NOT have my dollars feed a country that is actively hostile to the United States to the extent possible.

I have spent years working with and in China. Make no mistake...they consider us an enemy. However, they are content to do business with us to make money so that they can develop their businesses to the point that they don't have to deal with us (at least not from a position of weakness). They are at war with us economically and we're not even putting up a fight. I refuse to participate in the gutting of our economy to the extent I can. It isn't always possible to avoid, but I do the best I can.

So....do you want to help the Chinese government actively subvert our economy and our children's future economic prospects? I don't. There are plenty of other Asian countries with large affordable labor pools that are not trying to hurt us.

Best,

Very well said.

Glad I'm not the only one carrying the "not-made-in-China" torch!

And for the record, they're not just the US' enemy. A big target certainly, but they have their sights set on everyone.

I agree with the above two posters. When given the choice, I will gladly pay a little more to buy something made here, Canada, Europe, or Japan.

(I had an MC-12, and I just laughed when I saw the proposed MSRP for the new one.)

One thing that has dumbfounded me for years ... It is no secret that China undervalues its currency to artificially make its products cheaper overseas. In addition to the fact they don't really support the same environmental, social security, health care, pension, union costs, etc, that we and other developed countries have.

But this doesn't just affect us. I have Mirage speakers, made in Canada. No more. All their stuff is made in China now. And now there's word that newer Marantz AV7005's are made in China and not Japan. So my bewilderment is at *all* the countries of the world that put up with "the giant sucking sound" of jobs moving from their respective countries to China.

I don't get it. Not at all.

I think it has more to do with the Ferengi Rule of Acquisition #6:

Never allow family to stand in the way of opportunity.

Like it or not, US laws are such that the Ferengi choose to pray to their god rather than stand on principle. Take the case off your equipment and look at the innards. The word CHINA is in there and even if it is "assembled" in the US only 50% of that has to be done to say built in the US. I agree with the patriotic feelings that most of us share, but the reality ship sailed a long, long time ago. Hopefully Outlaw is able to control the quality as well as the cost.