Scroll down the forums page and there is a section for discontinued products, including the 990.

However, I'd just call the outlaws. I'm sure they can help.

Yes, the 998 is overdue. Fortunately, my 950 still works. I'm hoping Peter's upcoming 998 status update has some good news.

The reason I came back to the Saloon today is to look for a thread like this. I get the Outlaw promotional emails at two different accounts. I heard about the 997, though I wasn't as affected by it as I haven't changed to Pre/Pro. Yet. But the failure of the 997 project and the abundance of reselling was definitely seen by me as a harbinger of sorts, and one I felt a little sad about, if I'd found evidence of my 1st favorite audio company struggling.

I believe that Outlaw has found themselves in a bit of a quandry. A company cannot likely sustain themselves on one product, and if they have to, the market has to permit this and their engineering/development needs to be SPOT ON to pull off something as big as bringing a really good product to the consumer and make a profit. R&D is expensive and risky and you need investors to do get something moving. To do this on a smaller scale of economy, while still inventing something as unique as traditional Outlaw products, you have to really have your A game, and the demand has to be there.

Those of us who come here frequently or at all, represent what I believe to be a relatively small demographic. It grew during the boom time, but I think people are less likely to take chances with their money and may lean towards more "stable" brands that don't need to be id'd. We know who they are, we may have bought from them recently in fact.

I have always like the idea of a small American outfit putting their heads together to appease those of us who like Outlaw-type products. China's amazingly aggressive rise in global industry in general, could not have helped Outlaw if their business model did not adjust. Outfits like Emotiva have put a candle to Outlaw. I'm not saying that they make better equipment. I have no experience with it firsthand. But they attract budding audiophiles (and the older crowd) like moths to a nightlight. Whether or not people like their offerings, people are actively discussing them, trying them out, driving interest and sales to a degree. Just like Outlaw used to do. But the game's changed. Technology that is driven ever moreso by software - and tied directly to the development of quickly changing specs (read: HDMI nightmare), and integrating that spec, software, to your software, makes life pretty tough for an outfit like Outlaw.

The fact is that the Model 1070 that I own would make a lot of people unhappy at times. I believe the 970 had a similar set of issues. Some would contend that the last great Outlaw integrated AV receiver was neither, despite the reviews you see about both. The word got out that they were buggy. I saw past it on most days. I still love my Model 1070. She's a beauty and when she's working, she sounds oh so nice. But the masses wouldn't accept it. Outlaw produced, to me, the AV equivalent of a V-22 Osprey. (Google if you don't know what I mean. In short, somewhat revolutionary, genius, loved by its users, but problematic and at times attracting bad publicity.) In short, a game changer that had it's fair share of problems - some serious. I lurked on the 970 board to see similar problems there too. I think to some degree this may have hurt Outlaw a little bit. I also think that the issues they had were fully recognized as problems they'd care not to repeat, at the risk of really losing a grip on their supporters, so they're trying very hard to make sure they get it right this time. I wonder how much they really profited on the 970 considering the ridiculously low prices they fetched towards the end of their heyday. They seemed late to market and as I said, shared similar QA problems.

Software, among other parts of the development pie, is EXTREMELY hard to get right when you are dependent on parts over which you do not have all the control (design-wise and schedule wise; ahem. Sherwood.) I doubt anyone outside of Outlaw knows the full story, but I can sympathize. I work in software and have labored for years on a project that is struggling. BADLY. I don't know if we'll make it. I want us to. BADLY. But that's not enough. Wanting to produce something that works great doesn't resolve vendor problems. It doesn't resolve unreasonable or uncharacteristic (of the company mantra) demands by investors who want to be paid back quickly. It doesn't resolve the fact that the mass population of people are obsessed with BS wattage numbers, HDMI 1.4a, and electro-gizmo room correction, etc etc. I honestly don't care if my receiver does upconversion. I'm not saying Outlaw's fans collectively don't care, but the requirements they're supposed to meet have, in my mind, been drastically expanded and I can easily see why a.) Outlaw might be stretched out or forced to work faster than to what they're accustomed, and b.) it's harder to keep up with the product life cycle of their competition who seem to have comparitively endless R&D money and the flexibility to change products on the fly. I guess my point is, a.) Software is a difficult business, more than people who are not IT might realize. And b.)I see more software bugs across all my gadgetry, than I ever remember seeing, which highlights that software is changing faster and faster, QA for software is a very young science, and the "people" demand more and more functionality at a dizzyingly increased rate.

If I had my way, I'd forgo trinnov, I'd forgo HDMI completely (unless they got rid of the bullsh*t DRM pretense), and I'd be interested in one thing and one thing only - a quality pre/pro or integrated that was made by a bunch of geeks like me - to function without error, to sound wonderful and have tons of simple tweaks built into it (analog bass management still makes me smile), and the ability to be both a movie hub and a place to listen to music and make the Yamaha/Denon/Sony owners go green with envy in the simplicity of the build and beauty of the sound reproduction. Look nice. Look unique. Sound great. Allow me to add to it, tweak it, savor it. Enable me to join a small-ish community of similar minded folks with which are fun to discuss audio/HT. Do so without molesting my wallet. I'm not an business executive, and maybe my utopic vision of what Outlaw could still be is a pipedream. But, maybe not...

Outlaw helped me get my hobby on the right track, even with a somewhat buggy 1070. I was given it as a Christmas gift from my father in law, who I think just wanted to see what Outlaw was all about. I'd never heard of Outlaw, didn't know anything about it until I opened it. When I got it I didn't know the difference between coaxial and toslink. Since then, I've reached a new level of understanding and more importantly I've got this insatiable appetite to expand my horizons in the music listening world. But MOST importantly, I'm doing this still looking for the "best values on the internet" to this day. Owning a 1070 taught me that good companies make good products and are brave enough to battle giants and accomodate the sort of people who care more than the average about value, quality, and uniqueness. It started the day I cracked open the 1070 manual and I knew instantly that this company and this product were different. I'm more than a little bummed that they appear to be struggling. I love the RR2150 and I will probably buy one soon. But that's all I see right now...

I read Peter Tribeman's post earlier in this thread, and I applaud his confronting the issue with the truth, at least as much as he can say. He really seems like a roll-up-your-sleeves kind of guy. I hope he has the authority to make this all well again. I'm not meaning to slam anyone that said "Booo" when Peter wrote what he wrote, but if you haven't done so already, stop and consider the fact that, once again!, the head honcho of a small company that produced and still produces quality, major component-type audio gear (I mean actual receivers, amps, speakers) stopped in to address the concerns. They're listening. They're trying hard, that's very obvious to me. I really, REALLY hope that Outlaw pulls the magic rabbit out of the hat. I love winning underdogs as most of us do. Else you wouldn't be here.

Cheers to you all.

A manufacturer like Outlaw couldn't give away a new pre/pro without at least some sort of room correction and full HDMI capability.

I think you have assumed that both Trinnov and the DRM issues associated with HDMI will cause the 998 to be buggy. I'm counting on the Outlaws to get it right.

re Quote 1: Me saying I'd forgo it doesn't mean that I think Outlaw could sell a pre/pro without it. What I was getting at was that despite the clear benefits of the new technology, implementing a system which contains these new features (and perhaps several others) is not simple to do in an aggressive timeline when you walk among giants as competitors, and perhaps trying to please everyone. What made Outlaw different, imho, was their pattern of "less is more" and quality of important features over quantity of less important features. Sure HDMI is great. No need to argue that. But the fact that 3D is part of the latest version, to me, is somewhat of a bad joke to a lot of the original Outlaw crowd. Having 3D spec imposed on you by the masses when you were the same company that righteously rejected the notion of "Jazz/Concert/Hall" music fields is where I'm headed with this. WIth the good comes the bad I guess.

With Trinnov, I'm not entirely sure how easily integrated it was or is. But with anything in systems integration and design, what may seem like a gimme to the people wanting it may be problematic at best, or catastrophic at worst, for a design team whose requirements are changing or you rely on external sources to deliver these great features only to find that they're late and you might be putting the overall system together in half the time you allotted, AND turns out to be much more difficult than originally thought, putting the schedule at risk. I've seen this firsthand in my work. And here, we saw the unfolding drama of the 997. Outlaw is saying they are going to eliminate the external dependency issue by going in house. That too is surely a drama taking place in their company's confines. Hopefully their taking on more of the design and creation process will yield huge benefits for us. To assume it will go bad would be very pessimistic. To count on it going well would be ignoring the 997's history and to some extent, the 970/1070, models that were so close to being perfect but good examples of how important failing to get a couple major kinks out of all the deliverables can undermine what would likely have been perfect products were it not for some software bug(s).

For what it's worth, I'm absolutely 100% pulling for them. No place that I've stumbled into in the AV world like the Saloon where the people keep it civil and educational, and you have guys like Gonk who just seem to "be here" doing what he clearly likes to do - humbly helping all levels of enthusiasts, a real AV philanthropist. I for one hope we're all talking about the next Outlaw receiver/pre pro / stereo preamp soon and can put these worries to rest.

"For what it's worth, I'm absolutely 100% pulling for them. No place that I've stumbled into in the AV world like the Saloon where the people keep it civil and educational, and you have guys like Gonk who just seem to "be here" doing what he clearly likes to do - humbly helping all levels of enthusiasts, a real AV philanthropist. I for one hope we're all talking about the next Outlaw receiver/pre pro / stereo preamp soon and can put these worries to rest."


Right on.
Loyalty means a lot to me...it is a rare commodity now a days.
I understand from a customers' point of view that if your pre/pro is down and unrepairable you cannot wait forever.
However those of us who have a working 990...patience...we already have the BEST...waiting for better should be easy.

It has been a rocky road for the last few years - for Outlaw, and for a number of other companies trying to produce surround processors. They seem to have hung in there with their amps, subs, and speakers, with some help from offering alternatives to an Outlaw processor. Still, I hope that we can see an Outlaw HDMI processor soon. If it happens in time for Christmas, that'd be really cool. If it takes some time past that to get most bugs ironed out, they'd be better served making us wait than trying to make their customers provide beta testing. I also hope there will be ongoing support resources available, as even if they get things really well dialed-in before launch, these things today are complex and there will likely need to be some firmware updates. Anthem does it with their products, as does OPPO Digital.

I wonder if it is possible to make an outboard Audyssey/Trinnov processor? It could take in HDMI or seven channel analog and do the processing and output 7.2. It would make it compatible with a whole slew of older pre-pros and would allow smaller companies to focus more on the audio/video quality voce including every bell and whistle. Many of us are very happy with our gear but want to check out the 998 just for the Trinnov.

It'd be hard to do in the digital domain because most receivers and processors don't have a way of outputting multichannel PCM - much less outputting it and then getting it back (a digital version of "external loop" that stereo receivers used to support separate EQ). You'd just about have to do it by feeding the analog output into a processor that did an A/D conversion, then processing, then D/A conversion.

Kinda like the ICBM did for bass management?? That's a thought.

Why not just have the Spatial Processor output directly to the amp. It would take output from the pre-pro, process it for spatial effects and send it out to the amp analog. With some high quality DACs, it could be a boon for a lot of us.