#84956 - 10/21/10 11:30 AM
Re: Marantz AV7005?
[Re: gonk]
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Desperado
Registered: 01/01/03
Posts: 506
Loc: Torrance, CA USA
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Gonk: Any idea about that other D&M Holdings company - McIntosh? It sure seems that an Outlaw designed 978 with their emphasis on overall sound quality and HDMI audio capabilities, might provide an excellent basis for building a future McIntosh 136 replacement.
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Living Room 24x18 open 1/2 flight up to a raised dining room/hall 24x12 Outlaw 976 pre-pro running 5.1 system Outlaw 750 for Artison Masterpiece LCR and 2 NHT SuperZeros rears Velodyne Servo FX-1200 LG OLED65C8PUA via HDMI2 to/from 976 HDMI ARC Roku Ultra Samsung BD-D5500 BluRay Amazon FireStick 4K to 976 Aux HDMI input for Amazon Music Ultra
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#84957 - 10/21/10 11:43 AM
Re: Marantz AV7005?
[Re: gonk]
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Gunslinger
Registered: 07/21/06
Posts: 164
Loc: Mission,BC
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By the way, Happy Birthday!
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#84960 - 10/21/10 12:34 PM
Re: Marantz AV7005?
[Re: nomoneybutgoodsound]
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Desperado
Registered: 03/21/01
Posts: 14054
Loc: Memphis, TN USA
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Gonk: Any idea about that other D&M Holdings company - McIntosh? It sure seems that an Outlaw designed 978 with their emphasis on overall sound quality and HDMI audio capabilities, might provide an excellent basis for building a future McIntosh 136 replacement. I don't see McIntosh wanting to partner with an entity like Outlaw for such development. For one thing, they can make lots more by putting such R&D work into their own products, which sell for much higher margins. For another thing, they presumably want to preserve their market image. Partnering with an internet-direct company that focuses more on the balance of performance and value doesn't fit with that image. It's more likely that Outlaw is working from scratch with their manufacturing partner (who is likely somebody like Eastech, the manufacturer they worked with on the Model 1050 and Model 950, rather than an entity like D&M) to develop the Model 978's analog section. By the way, Happy Birthday! Thanks!
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#84964 - 10/21/10 07:30 PM
Re: Marantz AV7005?
[Re: gonk]
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Gunslinger
Registered: 01/04/10
Posts: 39
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Gonk: Any idea about that other D&M Holdings company - McIntosh? It sure seems that an Outlaw designed 978 with their emphasis on overall sound quality and HDMI audio capabilities, might provide an excellent basis for building a future McIntosh 136 replacement. I don't see McIntosh wanting to partner with an entity like Outlaw for such development. For one thing, they can make lots more by putting such R&D work into their own products, which sell for much higher margins. For another thing, they presumably want to preserve their market image. Partnering with an internet-direct company that focuses more on the balance of performance and value doesn't fit with that image. It's more likely that Outlaw is working from scratch with their manufacturing partner (who is likely somebody like Eastech, the manufacturer they worked with on the Model 1050 and Model 950, rather than an entity like D&M) to develop the Model 978's analog section. By the way, Happy Birthday! Thanks! No doubt you are probably right about any linkage here, however, I can't help but be reminded of the Lexicon/Oppo BD player fiasco of this past year. Of course, given the state of the consumer electronics industry and the consolidation that has been going on, I guess one should say "never say never".
Edited by casey01 (10/21/10 07:32 PM)
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#84965 - 10/21/10 10:28 PM
Re: Marantz AV7005?
[Re: casey01]
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Desperado
Registered: 03/21/01
Posts: 14054
Loc: Memphis, TN USA
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The Lexicon mess was a somewhat different animal, I think. A very high-profile animal, certainly, but also different. It was a case of a company taking a fundamentally sound product, wrapping it in a fancier brand name, and upcharging 700% for it (all while not adding anything measurable except more mass around the loader, and while being very slow to provide firmware updates). If Outlaw were to partner with somebody like Marantz, we would be seeing the opposite: a company taking a fundamentally sound product, tweaking it to fit their market needs, and selling it for less money. I think that makes it less likely.
I also trust Outlaw to be straight with us when they say they're developing the Model 978 and Model 998 from the ground up, not modifying somebody else's existing design. Not only does that rule out "re-badging" a Marantz (or a McIntosh), but it actually reduces the likelihood of any sort of development partnership with Marantz. After all, if you look at the big brands (Denon, Marantz, Onkyo, Integra, Yamaha, ...), their lines are all built around the idea of a core architecture in support of an entire product line - each company offering line-ups in which incremental upgrades in build quality, amplifier power, video processing, analog audio parts selection, user interface "prettiness", and ancillary features (network support, etc.) define the steps up in cost while significant chunks of core DSP code exist throughout most of the line. That's the only way that even those giants can sustain annual release cycles for lines that offer as many as half a dozen (or more) separate receiver models. They would have no interest in spending time doing something completely different for a single (or a couple) individual products sold under someone else's name. I could always be wrong, but I don't see a strong business case for a Marantz-Outlaw partnership to develop the Model 978 and Model 998.
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#84967 - 10/22/10 12:58 AM
Re: Marantz AV7005?
[Re: gonk]
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Desperado
Registered: 01/01/03
Posts: 506
Loc: Torrance, CA USA
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Gonk:
I think you missed the point I was trying to make. I was not suggesting that Outlaw would be taking anyone's product, but speculating about the opposite. I looked at the McIntosh 136 and it struck me that in many of its features, it appeared to be a slightly more advanced version of the 990 with HDMI (video only) instead of DVI. It struck me that if the 997/998 was going to be what Peter described then it could be used as a base platform for an enhanced 136 offering. There is all kinds of room in McIntosh's pricing model for all kinds of build, interface and part upgrades that would never be possible in the target price range of a 997/998.
While you are probably correct that Outlaw is pairing with another manufacturer, imagining a McIntosh manufactured Outlaw 978 with a made in the USA label was to sweet to ignore.
_________________________
Living Room 24x18 open 1/2 flight up to a raised dining room/hall 24x12 Outlaw 976 pre-pro running 5.1 system Outlaw 750 for Artison Masterpiece LCR and 2 NHT SuperZeros rears Velodyne Servo FX-1200 LG OLED65C8PUA via HDMI2 to/from 976 HDMI ARC Roku Ultra Samsung BD-D5500 BluRay Amazon FireStick 4K to 976 Aux HDMI input for Amazon Music Ultra
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#84970 - 10/22/10 10:19 AM
Re: Marantz AV7005?
[Re: gonk]
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Gunslinger
Registered: 01/04/10
Posts: 39
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The Lexicon mess was a somewhat different animal, I think. A very high-profile animal, certainly, but also different. It was a case of a company taking a fundamentally sound product, wrapping it in a fancier brand name, and upcharging 700% for it (all while not adding anything measurable except more mass around the loader, and while being very slow to provide firmware updates). If Outlaw were to partner with somebody like Marantz, we would be seeing the opposite: a company taking a fundamentally sound product, tweaking it to fit their market needs, and selling it for less money. I think that makes it less likely.
I also trust Outlaw to be straight with us when they say they're developing the Model 978 and Model 998 from the ground up, not modifying somebody else's existing design. Not only does that rule out "re-badging" a Marantz (or a McIntosh), but it actually reduces the likelihood of any sort of development partnership with Marantz. After all, if you look at the big brands (Denon, Marantz, Onkyo, Integra, Yamaha, ...), their lines are all built around the idea of a core architecture in support of an entire product line - each company offering line-ups in which incremental upgrades in build quality, amplifier power, video processing, analog audio parts selection, user interface "prettiness", and ancillary features (network support, etc.) define the steps up in cost while significant chunks of core DSP code exist throughout most of the line. That's the only way that even those giants can sustain annual release cycles for lines that offer as many as half a dozen (or more) separate receiver models. They would have no interest in spending time doing something completely different for a single (or a couple) individual products sold under someone else's name. I could always be wrong, but I don't see a strong business case for a Marantz-Outlaw partnership to develop the Model 978 and Model 998. The more I think of it perhaps the notion of joining forces with a company like Outlaw would be somewhat redundant. I was reminded that pretty well all the mainstream manufacturers are now selling their products either as new, reconditioned or refurbished through several authorized "on-line" resellers, in some cases, at significantly reduced prices so, like you stated, there doesn't seem to be much of a business model just to add another line under another name. I think in the case of Oppo though, not to get too philosophical here, but I remember the words of an article written several years ago by the late great writer in the former Stereo Review, Julian Hirsch, who said and I paraphrase, "any company with half decent engineering can build a product to a certain spec, by being able to buy the best parts, bring it to market and charge anything they want for it; the real engineering prowess comes when one can build a competitive performing product with a similar spec for a fraction of the cost AND price, bring it to market and still make a reasonable profit on its sale". I believe a specialty company like Oppo kind of set the world on its ear with its products and a company like Lexicon realized they just couldn't do what Oppo did. Perhaps this is all irrelevant but it is kind of interesting.
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#84971 - 10/22/10 11:14 AM
Re: Marantz AV7005?
[Re: casey01]
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Desperado
Registered: 03/21/01
Posts: 14054
Loc: Memphis, TN USA
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I think in the case of Oppo though, not to get too philosophical here, but I remember the words of an article written several years ago by the late great writer in the former Stereo Review, Julian Hirsch, who said and I paraphrase, "any company with half decent engineering can build a product to a certain spec, by being able to buy the best parts, bring it to market and charge anything they want for it; the real engineering prowess comes when one can build a competitive performing product with a similar spec for a fraction of the cost AND price, bring it to market and still make a reasonable profit on its sale". I believe a specialty company like Oppo kind of set the world on its ear with its products and a company like Lexicon realized they just couldn't do what Oppo did.
Perhaps this is all irrelevant but it is kind of interesting. It is interesting. This industry's technology has been moving very fast in recent years. While DVD players had become relatively straightforward to develop, Blu-ray players are a different matter. They're hard to develop. In some ways, they're easier than surround receivers/processors, but in other ways they're harder. Lexicon's had a long history of developing surround processors (going back to the 90s), but even they have faced some challenges keeping up with that market. At the same time, their history of building video disc players includes no original platforms. With DVD players, they licensed a Pioneer or other platform and adapted it to their uses. With Blu-ray, it shouldn't surprise us that they did the same thing. After all, a Blu-ray player is significantly harder to develop than a DVD player, so it's unlikely they'd start trying to develop their own now if they chose not to with DVD - especially once a platform as strong as the BDP-83 emerged. Cambridge did the same thing with the BDP-80 platform to create their BD player, and while it was significantly more expensive in the US (higher retail than the BDP-83) it was actually pretty competitively priced in their home market (the UK). The problem with the Lexicon BD-30 was the way they did it. That's where they really screwed up. Had they done what Theta did - made some effort to customize the power supply and analog audio sections, which are conveniently "easy" to modify without disturbing the core guts of the player - they might not have gotten ripped to shreds so badly online. The price difference still would have been hard to justify (Theta's had issues with that), but nothing as severe as what they've had to face instead.
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#84991 - 10/25/10 10:23 PM
Re: Marantz AV7005?
[Re: gonk]
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Desperado
Registered: 03/21/01
Posts: 14054
Loc: Memphis, TN USA
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And Rick S called this one... Going to have to check out the Outlaw guide on this one - there's been a ton of buzz about the AV7005.
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