I don't want to step on toes, this is my 3rd post after all. I am not a fan of mp3. Mp3 does not represent fidelity to me. 320k... is still a long way from Cd (FLAC) quality--it's still lossy compression. FLAC compresses Cd audio by about 50%, yet is lossless. That means you sacrifice space for much better fidelity. I can plug my ipod into headphones, or a stereo, and I get cd quality. Don't get angry, mp3's are fine for casual listening or convenience, but not---fidelity.

What you need:
1. Rockbox: this is freeware that turns your hard-drive equipped mp3 player into a FLAC only player. It overwrites the apple menus and gives you new ones.

2. Exact audio copy (freeware/recommended) or winamp pro ($19.95). These programs rip cd's to FLAC format. I recommend EAC, it is superior, and FREE.

3. No more itunes needed. You plug in your ipod, and it appears like any removable media. Drag and drop FLAC folders and have at it.

I use a PC/netbook and Ipod as FLAC servers. In addition to CD quality, I have eliminated all the moving parts a CD player has (especially with a solid state netbook like mac air). I can EQ in software, which is a much better idea than EQ'ing after the fact in the analog domain.

The FLAC site lists the compatible Mp3 players. Once you hear the quality, you will want to ditch compressed, lossy mp3's forever. It also made me ditch cd players as well.

I don't think you'll get a lot of push back on the quality of mp3 vs. FLAC and it sounds like you found a nice way to make FLAC portable in the PC domain. I used Winamp and FLAC before going Apple and now do something similar on my iMac with iTunes. I rip to AIFF with the error correction on and then put the music on a 120GB iPod Classic. It still uses the iPod's internal DACs but they are OK and with a nice pair of Ultimate Ears ear buds I'm set for portable use. At home I use iTunes/Airport Extreme/Airport Express to feed my 990 and it is very respectable. Enjoy!

I have ripped the remainder of my library this weekend, 220gb worth of flac files so I can say I have it all on a HD in Lossless format...yeah screw MP3s.

I like UE phones, and similar armature headphones more than dynamic these days. I like the fidelity and sound isolation. I have not seen a specialist to have ear molds taken yet, but am considering it. (I know someone that did, his UE's were over $1k).

It's good to spread the word about AIFF for apple.

I hate reading "net advice" that people give when they say "Just go with 320K because It's close enough" or "Just as good as cd". That is the ultimate testament to convenience somehow being = quality.

EAC is very thorough in terms of ripping and error correction.

Note: I saw that Wadia (and maybe others) offer a $3,000 Ipod stabilization platform---this was originally made without regard for AIFF. Hmm, $3k to stabilize 320K mp3....not on my shopping list.

With disc space so cheap I made the decision to rip using a lossless format and haven't looked back. I do convert some of my music to AAC for my 8GB ipod when the Classic is too heavy (backpacking or working out) and it may be just me but I prefer AAC over mp3 (192). I don't have the molded UE but it sure would be nice especially on planes. I use the foam tips on mine and I can get pretty isolated from the constant noise and the ever present 2-year old in the next row.

I have some etymotics and some Klipsch x-5. The etys cut off *way* too high, like 80hz. They have *nothing* that resembles bass. The Klipsch x5 are amazingly good for the money, I like them better than some $400 cans I have heard. They are not as refined as the midline ultimate ears, but the difference isn't that huge. The x5 have clean, defined bass the ety's can't dream of. If I spend more, I'll step into the non-ear conformal two or three driver UE's.

I have the UE SuperFi5Pro two driver earphones and couldn't be happier. They produce really clean bass with amazing mids and highs and with the foam tips they do an excellent job of noise isolation. I haven't had any over the ear headphones for a long time. The last pair were Koss 4AA that weighed a ton but were the state of the art at the time. Funny thing is they are still made.

The only etymotics I own are their high fidelity ear plugs for concerts but they do a pretty good job.

Hey we just had another earthquake here in southern California at the same time the White House blew up in Independence Day. Now I'm disappointed it wasn't my sub bouncing my couch around! LOL.

It was a magnitude 5.7 about 50 miles from my house. Maybe the shaking is what a buttkicker feels like. I'll have to look into that.

Ugh. I have been in a few temblors ranging from 4 and up. I was awakened once, and my bed was moving so much it was like it was liquefied. Every square inch of the surface was moving as if it was one big buttkicker. Say, isn't there a gum commercial with a guy on a floor full of woofers or something? It's like that.

Back to the new breed of headphones UE etc: as far as I am concerned, the days of lusting after stax lambdas or bulky over-the ear cans are gone for me. For years people decried the acoustic problems with a "shell" over the driver. Grado and senn. made "open" headphones (which were self defeating for me). This new breed or armature tech provides such a spacious, open high and accurate/tight low end that over-ear cans sound bloated by compare. My .02, adjusted to .17 for inflation.

I am thinking of doing this with your suggestions refurb, can you still use itunes or something similar to download new songs in that format. my cd collection is mostly 80's and early 90's. I only have a 16gb ipod, but that should still be quite a few songs. Thanks

You can download FLAC or AIFF files, not through Itunes that I know of. Itunes does nothing once a ipod classic is converted to rockbox. You rip from a CD directly using winamp or exact audio copy. As to AIFF, Itunes might still be used to view and sort I suppose. I have not messed with AIFF much myself.

Win vista crashed and burned on my sony vaio flac server. Time for ubuntu.

Well, I don't have an iPod (believe it or else, my cell, an old Nokia E61i, has a fine music player…not that I use it). But the iTunes on my laptop definitely has an AIFF option. Like most things audio, I came upon it kinda by accident. I almost fell off my chair when I pushed the first AIFF file I copied through my Sennheiser HD280 Pros. It was the rumbling bass that opens vibraphonist Walt Dickerson's To My Queen, and it actually sounded like thunder compared to the mp3. Ever since I've used the lossless file format, though I convert things down to mp3s if I have to send a track to a friend…(I know, I know, 'Why would I do that to someone I'm s'posed to like?', but e-mailing tracks larger than 20MBs isn't easy).

One other thing, refurb: You needn't worry about "upsetting" the gunslingers around here with your insights. In my experience, they're a pretty insightful bunch themselves…and so far very few folks have been told to get out of Dodge by sundown.

Btw, your next shot of sarsaparilla's on me.

Sasperiller!

I found since the inter-thingie has existed that some audio folks can be wound up like a top. The mere mention of anything they don't agree with and subjectivity devolves into a personal flame war. "What??? how DARE YOU suggest 320 isn't cd quality!!!! GAHHHH!!!!"

I did the same thing. The 1st album I ripped into lossless was Al Dimeolas "Kiss my axe". Even at 320, bass energy and ambient detail (along with high frequency information that describes materials like wood, metal etc) was just not there. I had to turn my ipod down because the dynamics were that much more powerful.

BTW: my old sony viao that I *was* going to use lunched a scsi controller. It's all proprietary, and not cost effective to fix. It's better to use my new netbook and if needed, and external HD for FLAC playback.

you should hang with a higher class of audiophile.

They crawl out of the woodwork on forums.

Damn…I think that might cancel me out.

Well, "Audiophile" has become kind of a dirty word with me. It all too often denotes the pinky-extended, uptight, snobbish individual that has some serious obsessions with gear. especially, expensive stuff. I am more of a music lover. I like musical sounding systems at any price... not just the $20K amps and $60K speakers.

I just downloaded the latest itunes, and set the import to "Apple lossless" and "error correction on". It seems to be ripping faster than EAC, and retains all the tune information.

nothing is better than EAC, faster maybe but not better.

and I guess I was all wrong anyway, if they were a true audiophile they wouldnt argue mp3 quality.

"audiophile" seems mean different things to different folks, and I see a trend in opinions by the individuals investment. I am a music lover first audiophile second, at least thats my take on it.

I should start a thread on "are you an audiophile", might get some cool answers...or a flame war.

My bet would be an eventual flame war. In the 1,024 times I have seen such a debate, it becomes a chest-puffing contest and who has the most expensive rig.

Me? I like everything from NHT superzeros and up. Dynamics, Horns, ribbons, planars, stat's, plasma...they are all good- they all have something to offer.

Apple lossless vs FLAC? Itunes vs EAC? Too many variables for me to make a call as to which is better.

My sony dying was a blessing in disguise. It caused a ground loop hum and noise in my system that my netbook and ipod do not. So at least I don't need to iron that out.

I can relate to that. I've been leery of using the term myself, both because it lacks a good definition and because I always feel like I would need to know more than I already do to be a "competent" audiophile. I enjoy movies and music. Sometimes I enjoy them a lot. Other times, I enjoy the idea of having time for them but don't get much chance to actually listen/watch.


Either route is a lot more appealing than lossy solutions, certainly. I'd have to experiment a lot to prove to myself which was sonically superior and most convenient. So far, though, I've settled for staying with physical media for most of my home listening - MP3 serves its purpose for in the car and background tunes at work, but even my wife recognizes the effects of lossy compression with some of her music.

I think it comes down to the fact that most people listen to mp3's through cheap headphones, pc speakers or a standard car stereo while they are otherwise occupied. Driving, running, working out. The caliber of speakers/headphones they have tends to limit playback quality regardless. Lossless is definitely a concern if you are going to be passively listening while seated or reading. I'd say lossless is a waste of time if it's not given a decent playback system. IE: no apple earbuds.

I decided to use a lossless format on a PC as a music server. That way, I can eq in the digital domain if needed. I can also eliminate a lot of variables in terms of CD player. I was listening to a FLAC of Allison Krauss, and the detail I have heard coming from a $3K cd player is all there.

but consider your surroundings, we are here because Outlaw provides a value for the buck, not ridiculously priced gear. This might just be the right environment for a good conversation on the subject.

I thought the same thing of other forums. I thought "Why would someone that only likes ultra-expensive gear be here at all?" But it turned out that although the forums were about most gear under $7 grand, some individuals liked to hang out there because it was a second or third system. That, and I think they enjoyed lording expensive gear over the younger folks that didn't have it. If you can make such a thread work...good luck. It would be nice to see cooler heads prevail.

well I did, its in the 'outlaw to outlaw' section. seems rather friendly so far, check it out.

So far, so good.

I just spent a rainy Sunday ripping dozens of cd's to apple lossless. I have gotten the majority of "essential" recordings for listening done. Now I have to twiddle my thumbs and wait for my rr 2150.

I finished mine last week. Second time too, I was foolish enough to rip it all to mp3 for the car the first time, thinking I would still prefer spinning the CDs at home. But now all my CDs are EAC'ed and flac'ed. I have 8TB of music now in my network. I love this direction media has gone, all my music is so easy to find and I never have the huge mess of cd cases lying around either after a good listening session.

Question about Apple loss-less vs. FLAC. Is there any SQ difference between them when just being used on a iPod/iPhone with a pair of Ultimate Ears. I only use this for traveling but I want the best SQ I can get under these conditions.

I don't have a media server yet as I am waiting for someone to come up with a media server that will serve SACDs or DVD-As. Most of my home listening is on that media and not Redbook CDs. Unfortunately, SACDs and DVD-As seem to be a dieing technology so I don't think there will be media servers supporting those formats. Maybe, if/when the music industry goes to Bleu Ray for high definition audio someone will come up with one then.

I will let you know if FLAC (Ripped with EAC and winamp) has any sonic difference between it and Apple lossless. My guess is no, but we shall see.

I had songs in both those formats when I ran both WinAmp and iTunes on a PC and I don't recall any difference between them. If there is a difference I imagine it would be pretty subtle. Apple DACs have changed over time (and not for the better according to some) and that may influence whether you'd hear any differences between Apple Lossless and FLAC using an iPod or iPhone.

I have the FLAC on my ipod and pc. I will be using a pc via USB as flac/apple lossless server to my stereo. I just ripped a CD in both formats.

I doubt there is a difference as well, if none, apple is my choice. Apple rips fast and recovers all the song information. I don't want EAC's slow pace to appear to be a sign of superiority. If that was the case, winamp FLAC and EAC FLAC would sound different.

EAC does the album info too. But if you want to remain an Apple zombie thats fine.

Faster almost always = less quality

slower almost always = best quality

Well, if the compression is lossless either way, slower may mean "less efficient algorithm" rather than better quality.

That's pretty insulting "Apple zombie" Nice little troll there. good job on that sucker punch. That was a very immature thing to do. In case you missed my headline, I have both at my disposal and intend to objectively compare them, irrespective of speed or codec maker. Your comment reflects the very snobbish, one-sided and cocksure attitude that disgusts me about so called "Audiophiles". "My way is perfect, anything else is a compromise, just because I said so." That kind of thing.

apple is proprietary. thats all.

good job calling me an ass a bunch of times though, much better than a zombie.

Ill keep in mind how sensetive you are in the future. sorry

No worries, after I post this, I just place you on the ignore setting. We shall have no further interactions...thanks to the forum controls.

"Proprietary" is a worthless argument. Magnepan, VMPS, Thiel and velodyne all use proprietary drivers. That's what makes them great. So what if apple makes a proprietary codec? Great is great.

Girls, Girls, Girls lets not get our panties in a wad over being an Apple Zombie. We may not like to admit it but they make some great stuff. Its easy to use and usually functions better than most I have used.

This place really is a forum consisting of FIVE posters. No matter how many members...there really are only FIVE posters. Sad.

- I should probably take some form of offense at that, since I'm certainly one of those five and the tone of your post is comes across as pretty rude (almost as if you were waiting for someone to make a post that seemed trollish so you could react to it), but I choose not to. The forum has ebbed and flowed over the years. Regular posters have come and gone and come back again. It isn't the most frenzied forum around, certainly, but it doesn't try to be. It was set up as a resource for customers and potential customers, a purpose for which I dare say it has been successful. We try not to be obnoxiously overzealous in our support of the company and its products (something that can't always be said of company forums). Instead, we try to help. At present, Outlaw's in between surround processors, so most of their products are pretty straightforward things to set up and use (power amps, speakers, subs).

Make that FOUR posters. You guys can have it. BTW: your post was rude, as if you were baiting me to respond. NP, it's the sound of one hand clapping. It's all yours. Let the record show that "Gonk" thinks he should have been offended. When that happens, it's hell to pay: he is the leader of the other 3 and the local arbiter of posts.

Sorry to see you go, as you made some interesting posts until you got bent out of shape yesterday. If you consider my post "baiting," though, you might want to re-read your own - declaring the forum to be "sad" certainly could qualify as baiting. I hope you enjoy your RR2150, and would still be glad to read any thoughts you have on the unit. I'd even try to help answer any questions you might have.

5 people isn't a forum...it's a clique. If this forum even had 20 members, it might be worth posting a review. But since it only has 4...it's not my place to be. If the outlaw doesn't blow my HK and denon away, it will get returned faster than you can say "Emotiva".

Incidentally, anyone offended by my posts are the ones that need a thicker skin, not me.

wow, moving on....

Is anyone here using EAC to rip directly to FLAC? I cant seem to find the setting for compression levels.

Wow, indeed…

Jimna -

I have used EAC for my entire library in ripping straight from CD to FLAC. Here is a helpful guide:
http://wiki.hydrogenaudio.org/index.php?title=EAC_and_FLAC

Do you have the FLAC installer? The link for downloading is included in the link above.


I also have a copy of my library in MP3, where converted my FLAC's to MP3 using dbpoweramp, which has a small license fee to unlock the additional conversion software.

Thanks!! As soon as I get home I'll give this a try!

I have to add something about the Refurb diatribe. Seriously, what got Refurb's panties in a wad? Although I did not find his "Apple Zombie" commment THAT offensive (I guess I have become one); I believe Refurb's follow-on defense was way out of line and well deserving of the written rebukes he subsequently received, especially in respect putting down the contributions of the frequent posters.

As for me, I am only a sometimes poster because I only have a few things to contribute or ask; but I am almost an everyday reader of this forum. This forum has been invaluable to me over the last 4 years of my excersion as an audio "enthusiest" (to use a term aptly suggested by a few people from another post). In my opinion, this forum is not weighed down by a lot of dead weight, "audiophile" bluster, superfluous opinions, and never-ending topic choices, as I have found in other forums, such that it makes following posts and finding useful information in some other forums quite teadeous and not very enjoyable. And, as for the "five" regular posters (albeit I know there are many more regulars than that), their contributions are almost always neighborly and informative, and lacking any hint of superiority. But, let's face it, the "five" regulars are self made experts in the field and we regular forum readers learn a lot from their insights into Outlaw specifically as well as into other companies, products, and audio/video state-of-the-art.

For these reasons, I look forward to the "five" regulars' continued insightful contributions. You are very much appreciated by me (and I am sure by many others). So if you "five" are ever in Connecticut or New York City, please let me know so while you are in Connecticut I can show off my system that has been pieced together with a lot of your insights, or while you are in New York City I can buy you a drink.

Ed.