There are some issues involved.

1. Nobody knows how the PS3 will do 3D with an HDMI v1.3 transceiver chip. HDMI v1.4 (and particularly v1.4a) does add some 3D support, although in theory I think that v1.3 is capable of supporting the bandwidth. The most common theory I've seen is that the PS3's 3D will be 1080i-based, not 1080p-based, and that it will somehow be able to pass through a v1.3 transceiver that wasn't designed for 3D. Because the PS3 has that Cell processor under the hood, it can do some fairly CPU-intensive gymnastics to produce a 3D-friendly signal that can then be fed through the existing output.

2. There are some v1.3 displays that are said to be 3D capable. How that will work remains to be clearly defined.

3. There are some new products announced that are listed as being HDMI v1.3 while also supporting 3D. Those products are actually using v1.4 chips, but they were developed without having a formal v1.4 certification process. Thus they are v1.3 products that are intended to support some v1.4 functionality.

4. There are two dangers that may arise if people try to feed 3D through v1.3 receivers and processors. The first is bandwidth: even though v1.3 is spec'd to handle enough bandwidth for 3D, that doesn't mean products' internal architecture was built for it when all they had to worry about was 2D 1080p/60. There's no way to readily identify if this could be a problem or not with a v1.3 product. The other is video processing. Some units (like the Onkyo 885 and 886) will automatically bypass video processing when fed a 1080p/24 signal. Other units can't do that, and 1080p/24 comes out 1080p/60. Can the former units be "trained" to bypass a 1080p 3D signal? Can units that don't know to bypass 1080p/24 be "trained" to?

The best solutions for folks who want to have 3D at home are a v1.4 receiver or processor or find 3D sources that offer two HDMI outputs (one for video and one for audio) so the video can go straight to the display.

Is there any speculation on who Outlaw is working with to build the 998? If so, what other brands use those companies to build their products?

1. Sony has said it will be 1080p, and will NOT be simulated 3D, but fully compliant 3D. This means it will work, and we do know that HDMI 1.3 is enough for 3D in terms of bandwidth, and it will depend on certain products. If products were designed to fully handle the bandwidth needed in their infrastructure a firmware update should be satisfactory IF there is proper video processing. The PS3 is a powerful device. The guys at Oppo are also saying a firmware update will "likely," handle the 3D issue.

2. They are designed for firmware updates. Mitsubishi specifically states that the TVs were designed for it, and that all it will take is a firmware update. So HDMI 1.3 is more than capable again, if the processing is there and the infrastructure was designed for full bandwidth.

3. I know the Panasonic BD players coming out are in fact NOT using a 1.4 chip, they're just updated 1.3 chips. They had no 1.4 chip to use at the time of making their spec units.

4. You're right, if they didn't prepare for it there is no telling. However, a device won't get a firmware upgrade for 3D use if it won't work. So that should take care of everything. Most devices should be ok. The video chips needed aren't that powerful (something that could run DCDI should be more than capable for instance).

The primary reason for 1.4 is the addition of Ethernet, and to me it's not that big of a deal. 3D has been tacked on to improve 1.4 sales. Why? Because 1.4 was originally announced a long time ago and no one gave a damn. Throw on 3D and it's all of a sudden a big deal.

The fear that 1.3 will be obsolete is just that a fear. Chances are high that upgrades could handle the 3D issue for a lot of people. I personally see no need to add Ethernet to my HDMI, and I don't even know how much use that can even be.

Remember also, that the BD Association is claiming a high number of movies will be 3D compatible on release. Many of these movies aren't new, but already printed and again will just need a firmware update to unlock the feature. This means it was likely designed to work under previous 1.3 specs.

I, too, would like to commend Outlaw for being forthright on the demise of the 997.. You can only rearrange the deck chairs on the Titanic so many times. Is it too late to start a thread where we could make inputs requesting certain features for the 998? I know one disappointment on the 997 was the lack of phono inputs. I would like to request phono inputs for the 998. Thank you.

I've been with outlaw and only outlaw (a refurb Onkyo for the kids doesn't count) for some time now: 1050, 950, 990...and was waiting on the 997 but had that gut feeling I had with the 990, being behind the new standards. I'm fine with a delay that nets us up-to-date tech for a change. Will the 998 make it on time? I'll say no, not if history teaches us anything.

I'm not in a hurry to move on, hdmi switching and dolby modes are all I'm missing, I think I can stand to wait.

I don't think this is quite true:
The ethernet connection that will be provided via an 1.4 HDMI cable will be just to provide connectivity between say AVR - TV, AVR- BD player, BD player-TV etc. This is just so people won't have to run an additional CAT5e/6 cable alongside the HDMI cable.

You would still need to have a standard RJ45 network jack to connect the AVR or BD player to your network. They would have come out with HDMI network switches (the fiasco that would be!) and even then you would still need it to use the standard RJ45 connection at some point. To my knowledge there are no routers, hubs, modems etc that have HDMI 1.4 ports.

Either way, I sure as heck am not going to replace my whole Gbt network with new hardware AND outrageously priced cables that I can't make myself.

The other problem is that according to HDMI.org HDMI 1.4 will only be able to do 100 Mbt speeds, not Gbt...

HDMI.org

I've seen so many mixed messages so far, that I'm unwilling to consider anything a guarantee until hardware and firmware are coexisting in consumer's homes. If both fat and slim PS3's have the video bandwidth to do it, that's great, but I still worry that we're going to run into some really weird issues with any existing v1.3 hardware elsewhere in the signal path. As for OPPO, I've heard the exact opposite: they don't believe it will be possible to add 3D support to either of their existing players via firmware.


I was talking specifically about existing surround receivers and processors. If the internal bandwidth doesn't exist to handle two 1080p signals concurrently, a firmware update won't fix it. Likewise, video processing that wasn't meant to pass such signals may not be able to be "fixed" after the fact to support it. There are already products on the market that can't pass 1080p/24 and even a few that can't pass 1080p without interlacing to 1080i and re-deinterlacing to 1080p. Those are almost guaranteed to choke on a 1080p 3D signal, and identifying such units is a difficult and tedious process (the ones I'm thinking of are all v1.3). Also consider how quickly the 3D standards have come together - folks can't have designed with this standard in mind because the standard was still a complete mystery. There's no telling what the 997 would have supported regarding 3D video signals. The fact that the 998 will have v1.4, on the other hand, means that it isn't an issue either way.


I still think that putting Ethernet in HDMI is the silliest idea I've heard in a long time. The implementation makes no sense to me, and I don't see the benefit of doing it. However, HDMI v1.4 always had provisions that related to video bandwidth and were specifically meant to be applicable to 3D. Nobody cared because no standards existed that could use that part of the spec. Personally, I still don't care much as I'm not real keen on 3D at home, but it is going to be important for Outlaw from a marketing perspective over the next several years.


I think that work-arounds are likely, but I also think that it is wise for Outlaw to move to v1.4 for the 998.


Which titles that are already out are compatible with the new 3D protocols? (I don't mean the red-blue junk that a few existing 3D releases have used, I mean the active shutter glasses.) I didn't think there were any existing titles. I'd be interested to see an article on that, as it has completely slipped under my radar and I have no idea how they could have produced such discs without the standard already being in place.

Good point. It has been widely reported (that's "reported") in the tech press that most TVs are not 3D compliant, and cannot be firmware upgraded to be so, as they are only built to accept signals up to 60Hz and 3D is a minimum 120Hz. The fact is that the PS3 is a unique situation in this matter - it is the biggest selling (by far!) BD player out there, it's design included a LOT of room for updates and expansion of content to extend its service life, and since BD is Sony's standard, they're going to squeeze every ounce of horsepower out of the hardware therein to accommodate. However, while you're getting 3D game and movie content on your PS3, you're not getting HDMI 1.4.



HT magazine in the 83SE review : "To make sure we bleed at the edge, up to the minute, I asked Oppo as we went to press whether the BDP-83 or BDP-83SE will be firmware upgradeable to 3D Blu-ray. At press time, the answer was no. We don’t anticipate a yes answer to this question, but I suppose we’ll keep asking for a while. Just in case. "



And that's assuming that the implementation of hard/software for v1.3/a in receivers/prepros was done properly. Which we all know did not happen for the most part.



Personally, I like this idea. In my HT I have one network drop at the rack. I have a all 3 consoles, a prepro, and my HTPC to connect, and wireless is spotty there. I wish this had been part of 1.3, it does me no good in 1.4.



None. The first ones are planned for release this summer when hardware starts to hit the stores, and even then they're talking about only 2 or 3 titles so far.

Despite all of the hubbub about this, I don't see the benefit of 3D except in a handful of films. Maybe games would be a more natural fit, but with so many "3D" films actually being "upgraded" 2D films (I'm talking to you, Harry Potter), it doesn't give me the urge. Most 3D films I've seen are no more 3D than a viewmaster slide - everything looks like cardboard cutouts in a diorama.

And to make things worse, the one title that folks seem to agree represents a really valid application of 3D is Avatar - which won't show up in BD in 3D until at least next year. Both the May release and the rumored late fall extended cut release will be in 2D only.