#82965 - 03/16/10 04:13 PM
Re: Thank you...
[Re: gonk]
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Desperado
Registered: 04/19/05
Posts: 361
Loc: Plano, TX
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Space Station and Under the Sea are a couple of others, but from Hollywood only Up comes close. And I know I've beaten this horse before....but do we really think we'll get that same immersive experience from most home theaters with the relative viewing angle as small as it is?
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--Greg
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#82966 - 03/16/10 04:13 PM
Re: Thank you...
[Re: gonk]
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Desperado
Registered: 04/08/08
Posts: 2676
Loc: Columbus,North Carolina
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I will wait it out and expand my disc collection. 3D will not make it to the real consumer market and be accepted for several years. Once that new fancy equipment comes out the price of the 2D stuff will drop enough to make it really affordable. I cannot imagine myself watching a movie at home with 3D glasses of any sort.
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Music system Model 990/7500/Magnepan 1.6 QRs/Technics SL1200 MK2/Aperion S-12 Subwoofer/OWA3/Sony NS75H DVD APC H15 Power Conditioner
TV System Large Advent Loudspeakers/ Polk center/Monoprice surrounds/Panasonic Viera 42 inch/Onkyo HT-RC260/Sony BDP S590/Directv
Home Theater System Onkyo PR-SC886/Outlaw 7125 Klipsch RF-82 L/R,RC-62 center, RB-35 SR/SL, BENQ HT1075, Outlaw LFM1-EX/OPPO BDP-83/Directv Harmony ONE Blue Jeans and Monoprice interconnects APC H15 Power Conditioner
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#82967 - 03/16/10 04:30 PM
Re: Thank you...
[Re: XenonMan]
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Desperado
Registered: 03/21/01
Posts: 14054
Loc: Memphis, TN USA
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And I know I've beaten this horse before....but do we really think we'll get that same immersive experience from most home theaters with the relative viewing angle as small as it is? It's a good point, even if the horse does look a little dead - you'd probably need a big screen (front projection) to get the effect you find in the theater. My 40" LCD is as big as I can fit in our entertainment center, and the effect of 3D is probably not going to be as immersive as in the theater. I cannot imagine myself watching a movie at home with 3D glasses of any sort. Ditto.
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#82969 - 03/16/10 04:34 PM
Re: Thank you...
[Re: XenonMan]
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Gunslinger
Registered: 11/29/05
Posts: 110
Loc: Ann Arbor
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Does anyone here know for sure whether HDMI 1.4 and 3D will be able to go through the current generation of HDMI 1.3a receivers and preamps at least in pass-through mode? If not, it would make waiting for the 998 look like even a better idea.
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#82970 - 03/16/10 05:02 PM
Re: Thank you...
[Re: wolverine]
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Desperado
Registered: 03/21/01
Posts: 14054
Loc: Memphis, TN USA
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As I understand it, nobody knows either way. The danger appears to be that it's entirely possible some, many, or all will have compatibility problems. I'll borrow my concerns on the matter from two earlier posts I made in this thread (since the thread's gotten a bit cluttered in spots): There are two dangers that may arise if people try to feed 3D through v1.3 receivers and processors. The first is bandwidth: even though v1.3 is spec'd to handle enough bandwidth for 3D, that doesn't mean products' internal architecture was built for it when all they had to worry about was 2D 1080p/60. There's no way to readily identify if this could be a problem or not with a v1.3 product. The other is video processing. Some units (like the Onkyo 885 and 886) will automatically bypass video processing when fed a 1080p/24 signal. Other units can't do that, and 1080p/24 comes out 1080p/60. Can the former units be "trained" to bypass a 1080p 3D signal? Can units that don't know to bypass 1080p/24 be "trained" to?
(*snip*)
If the internal bandwidth doesn't exist to handle two 1080p signals concurrently, a firmware update won't fix it. Likewise, video processing that wasn't meant to pass such signals may not be able to be "fixed" after the fact to support it. There are already products on the market that can't pass 1080p/24 and even a few that can't pass 1080p without interlacing to 1080i and re-deinterlacing to 1080p. Those are almost guaranteed to choke on a 1080p 3D signal, and identifying such units is a difficult and tedious process (the ones I'm thinking of are all v1.3). Also consider how quickly the 3D standards have come together - folks can't have designed with this standard in mind because the standard was still a complete mystery. There's no telling what the 997 would have supported regarding 3D video signals. The fact that the 998 will have v1.4, on the other hand, means that it isn't an issue either way. I'd say the odds of at least some HDMI v1.3 receivers choking on 3D signals is extremely high. The most likely workaround will be 3D players with two HDMI outputs, one for video going straight to the display and one for audio going to the receiver. So far, though, a number of the announced 3D players have not offered that.
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#82976 - 03/16/10 06:07 PM
Re: Thank you...
[Re: E'pin Sen Ob]
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Gunslinger
Registered: 11/21/03
Posts: 147
Loc: Lafayette, LA, USA
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Hell of a gutsy call, Outlaws. I applaud your actions. While I was one of the clients that decided to pull the trigger on an Integra 80.1, I will look forward to the 998's release and make an evaluation as to whether to return to the Outlaw's pre-pro corral!
Mike
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75" 4K HDR Sony XBR 75X95k mini-LED TV Marantz AV7706 pre-pro OPPO UDP 203 4K Ultra HD Blu-ray Player Mirage HDT Speaker System (LCR [OM-5s for L&R and HDT-F for center], SR, SL, SBR, SBL [HDT-Rs]) Dual SVS PB12-Plus Subs Outlaw Audio Model 7900 Power Amp w/Dual Emotiva CMX-2 AudioControl BijouTM THX� Equalizer Rega RP1 Turntable Dual Panamax M5300-PM Power Conditioners Dual Monster Power HTS 2500 Power Conditioners Dual Monster Power HDP 1800 Power Conditioners Clearplay Blu-ray Player Motorola VIP1200 HD cable receiver Logitech Harmony Elite Remote
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#83029 - 03/19/10 07:06 AM
Re: Thank you...
[Re: gonk]
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Gunslinger
Registered: 06/09/04
Posts: 99
Loc: Boston. MA
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Cheers to Outlaw for making the right call on the 997. And reading all this back and forth on HDMI 1.3 vs 1.4 vs 3D reminds me of another good call by Outlaw when they decided to forgo HDMI on the 990.
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#83030 - 03/19/10 08:04 AM
Re: Thank you...
[Re: rance]
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Gunslinger
Registered: 11/29/05
Posts: 110
Loc: Ann Arbor
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Cheers to Outlaw for making the right call on the 997. And reading all this back and forth on HDMI 1.3 vs 1.4 vs 3D reminds me of another good call by Outlaw when they decided to forgo HDMI on the 990. This actually brings it back to my original question. I realize that 1.4 internet and 3D content will not be able to be processed or decoded by a current generation preamp or receiver without at least a software update, or perhaps never. I was asking if a current preamp or receiver with HDMI 1.3 was set to pass through mode with no internal video processing, would it be able to transfer 1.4/3D content on to a monitor, the way the Outlaw 990 can successfully pass HDMI video content through HDMI/DVI and DVI/HDMI adapters. I would think that might be possible as long as HDMI remains pin-for-pin and wire-for-wire compatible.
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#83032 - 03/19/10 08:39 AM
Re: Thank you...
[Re: wolverine]
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Desperado
Registered: 03/21/01
Posts: 14054
Loc: Memphis, TN USA
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I was asking if a current preamp or receiver with HDMI 1.3 was set to pass through mode with no internal video processing, would it be able to transfer 1.4/3D content on to a monitor, the way the Outlaw 990 can successfully pass HDMI video content through HDMI/DVI and DVI/HDMI adapters. I would think that might be possible as long as HDMI remains pin-for-pin and wire-for-wire compatible. I still think the answer is "nobody knows." In theory, it may be possible, but there would seem to be specific cases where it is almost certain that it will not be possible. DVI/HDMI compatibility is be different than what we can expect to see with HDMI v1.3/v1.4 compatibility. After all, HDMI was based on DVI, and up until recently the video signals that one used were also supported by the other. The issue with 3D is that they are adding video signal formats that neither DVI nor HDMI v1.3 included. From a simple wiring standpoint, it wouldn't matter. It's when those signal formats get processed by a device in the signal path that things may get messy. Unlike the Model 990's DVI switching, many HDMI v1.3-based products actually process the video signal. That video processing is often an integral part of the video signal path, and it is built specifically to support the existing video formats we are all used to. Even now, some units have limitations with those existing formats. In some cases, they can't pass 1080p/24 through from a BD player to the display. I can think of at least one Faroudja-based receiver that converts 1080p to 1080i even if the output resolution is set to 1080p. Receivers like that would probably not be able to pass 3D content. It's like taking a 768p display and feeding it a 1080p signal - unless it has a video processor that knows what to do with that signal, all you're going to get is a blank screen or a message that it is receiving an unsupported signal. The other concern is video bandwidth. The DVI switching in the 990 has enough bandwidth for the needs that existed prior to 3D. Will that switching start to have problems when you increase the video signal bandwidth requirements for 3D? Will the same be true for HDMI-based products that were designed to the same requirements? How will we know? At this point, I don't think anyone on the consumer side has those answers.
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