curegeorg--
What would you recommend in the $500/600 range from Velodyne.
Answer:dls-3750. however i have not heard it and it is a newer model. if you ask velodyne they would say nothing lower than the spls though, and i would agree. look at the specs of the spls compared to less expensive models, there is a tremedous difference. (specs. are great to compare inner-brand like that, and velodyne is pretty detailed) come on with a 15k budget, you cant honestly expect to only spend 500 on a subwoofer... spls are around 1k i think. 1/15 of your system on the most important speaker is not too much.

I was going to go with Anthem AV20 before I read about the Outlaw stuff which seems very competitive. Also looked at Rotel very closely. The Outlaw combo just seems like the best value and that is important to me.
Comment- the best is what it is, nothing more and nothing less.

My biggest concern is your bashing of the Samsung DLP. ... I guess that leaves LCD and LCoS. Do you like any of these? If so why.
1-Samsung is cheap. 2-Samsung is cheap. 3-Rainbow effect (it drove my friend nuts, and he went with sony lcd projection (NOT WEGA THOUGH) and loved it, just not quite as black). 4-I have seen/heard of numerous problems with the color wheel and it has been out how long? 5-Fan failure (i know of one that popped, sizzled, and smoked) 6-DLP is best with 3 chip; samsung does not offer that yet 7-1st generation available to consumer 8-Did I already mention that Samsung is cheap? Well they spend more money on developing new techs. rather than implementing what they have correctly. They are cutting edge, but at all costs, which means low quality workmanship. I can go on and on, but basically they make junk. LCoS is too much for your budget I would think. I saw the Mitsu when it came out and it is nicer than LCD, but not as much as I thought it would have been. I dont think it justifies the price... However compare the two side by side somewhere and see for yourself. I dont know of who exactly offers LCoS, but a bunch of companies make LCD with Sony being best (i dont care for Sony and they make turds from time to time, and i know of a lot of problems with their LCD projection too, but still better than Samsung DLP)

Sherwood just came out with an updated pre/pro, so check it out. I bet outlaw will get a very similar model, like before, but maybe not. if they do it will be less $$.

why i dont like lcds, not pure black and cellular gridding on big screens. sometimes you see that look of a cheap video card, like particles around objects because the colors are changing so quickly and the cells arent small enough to differeniate them. it looks like fog on a bad video card, is how i can best describe it... lcd pixels burn out, change colors, etc... and are not ALWAYS covered under your warranty depending on where they are, how many, etc.
i have 65" RPTV, and while it is a smidge behind in detail i prefer its more filmlike look for movies. colors are more solid, because there are no cells. i watch 95% movies in the theatre, a little tv and a little audio.

So for comparison sake I'll use the DSL-4000 (yes i said dsl-3750 above, buy i want to compare 12" vs 12", outlaw=o, velodyne=v)

Driver Type: (o)Down Firing, 12" Long-throw Woofer;(v) 12" forward firing 9.9" piston diameter with vented pole piece. Advantage:velodyne, front is better

Ports: (o)Dual;(v)Extended Excursion Slot-Loaded Bass-Reflex
Advantage:tie, bass-reflex and dual are not so hot

Amplifier Power Rating: (o)325WRMS; 1300W peak;(v)200,400.
Advantage n specs alone, outlaw, however power rating is misleading, because the application and quality of the power are integral to its usefullness. so most people say lfm-1 is good, so ill go with them.

Frequency Response: (o)25Hz. -180Hz. +/- 2 dB;(v)25-120Hz +/-3 dB
Advantage:tie

Weight: (o)58 lbs;(v) 63 lbs
Advantage: more weight tends to make one think better build quality, larger components, better heat dissipation, but ill rate them even, so tie.

It is tought to say between those two, on specs. I may say Outlaw, however if you compared them side by side I would say tie, with my taste telling me Velodyne. However the SPL would crush those two, and is my recommendation for lower cost subwoofer. If you cheap out on the sub, you will always regret it.

To that person who said Hsu, yes they make ok subs, but only once you get into the tubular series (which is more $). Who really wants a tubular sub? The sonics of a tube may be great if you engineer it well enough, but ill stick with my driver firing to the front and cabinet normal. I think tube, I think bazooka, and when I think bazooka I think weapon not audio.

[This message has been edited by curegeorg (edited May 21, 2004).]

Wow curegeorg, you answered my question. Now I'm left wondering what to do. Especially with the monitor issue. Maybe I need to reconsider front projection. I haven't really looked into it b/c I have very limited space between the front and back of the home theater(11') and obviously I have to have seating and possibly a coffee table. So what can you suggest for under $4K for a front projection that would work well with that kind of space. And is front projection good for regular TV? If not, how about HDTV?

None of this is set in stone. I won't be moving until August/September so I think I will have a chance to get the next generation stuff and maybe some of the issues you have mentioned will be addressed. If I did go DLP is any brand that you would suggest?

Thanks again for all the info. Just need to digest it now!

If you haven't done so already, I'd suggest doing some demoing of TV's. I've got a co-worker who has been agonizing over a new TV purchase for close to a year (he almost pulled the trigger after a nasty wind storm last summer that took out his power for a week and caused the audio in his Sony to freak out for a while). He started out wanting plasma, but not surprisingly abandoned that. He's been comparing CRT, LCD, and DLP rear projection for at least six months, and he's about ready to pick up a Samsung DLP. Get a look first-hand at DLP, LCD, and CRT RPTV's. See if the rainbow effect bugs you (some people never notice it, while for others it seems to claw at their eyes from across the room). Check out some of the CRT RPTV's like Toshiba and Mitsu - well-established technology, although there can be trade-offs (poorer off-axis viewing comes to mind).

The current state of TV tech can be a real headache. LCD and DLP rear projection are both fairly young and growing at a startling rate, with associated growing pains. Plasma and LCD flat panels each offer benefits, drawbacks, and sticker shock. Direct view has even had trouble moving into HD resolutions (although so far I'm really pleased with my 32" HD tube). You've got time to scope out all the options and wait for the newer models (seven-segment color wheels on DLP, newer chips, ...).

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gonk -- 950 Review | LFM-1 Review | Pre/Pro Comparison Chart | Saloon Links

honestly, i dont know much about front projection models at the moment. so for a price budget, avs has a whole area on displays, two of the threads are relevant to this topic. 3500+,3500-. heres the link
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/forumdisplay.php?forumid=9

lucky for you, there are not SO many manufacturers of projectors for ht use, however there are still quite a few. i have always felt kind of funny watching normal (non hdtv) tv on my big screen, it just seems wrong to be watching it so big... gonk is correct when he says check out some units side by side.

Just a little sub-comparo info to fan the flames....
http://www.subwooferinfo.com/

Happy reading

lots of older models in that listing.

lots of older models.
i came across this one article a while ago that calculated spl and thd at the same frequency, that is a true test of a sub. lots of things can be loud, loud and clear is much rarer. velodyne accels at loud and clear. i will look for the article.

ah, here is what i was looking for, however it is for the dd18, the 2nd page is what i am talking about, hz with spl and distortion.
http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_10_4/velodyne-dd-18-subwoofer-12-2003-part-1.html