so i ordered an OPPO BDP-83SE. Should tide me over for a while. Guess the PS3 will be relegated to component video for a while but oh well. At least I'll be enjoying the new audio formats via 7.1.

Nice purchase. That should be a fun combo. I've heard really good things about the SE's analog section.

Me too! I've had a receivers with Audyssey in the past and realistically I didn't notice a huge improvement in the sound. I figure I'll stick with my 970 and my soon to arrive 83SE.

My Oppo BDP-83SE is wrapped and has been under the tree for two weeks now. It's driving me crazy not to be able to hook it up.

Only two more "sleeps" until Christmas.

Now that is patience!

Wow...there's a man with self control!

No.

A man with true self-control does what's best for the World and makes sure he does not buy made-in-China products.

Jeff,
I've tried to make a conscious effort to avoid products made in China, but it's becoming close to impossible to do that. From shoelaces to refrigerators...almost every consumer product is made there. If I can find a product that's made here, or anywhere but China I buy it over a made in China product. Unfortunately, I don't know of any bluray players available that aren't made there. I'd thought the one I currently have was made elsewhere but after I bought it I found it was made in China. I'm sure there are some out there, but I haven't run across any. I guess it boils down to if you want a product and they are all made in China, it's a decision to buy it in spite of that fact or just pass.

After being in China on and off for several years and seeing the ucked fup environment (from the business, quality, and ethics standpoints) first hand, I go out of my way to avoid products produced there as well. It seems like "good business" to buy from China as an OEM until you start bumping into things like Outlaw is seeing now and run into the "mei ban fa" mindset. I'd rather make a smaller margin and deal with suppliers with integrity...but that's just me...apparently.

Best,

og33,

My Sony BDP-S560 Blu-ray player, which I bought new in August, is a very good player. It is made in Malaysia.

For audio and video performance (through its HDMI output) it is the equal of the Oppo ( and anything else in its price range). It lacks SACD and DVD-A capability; but if you were into those formats you probably still have your old player anyhow.

I paid $243.97 delivered for the Sony. That's half the price (or less) of the Oppo. (There goes the old "but I saved a bundle by buying made-in-China" argument!)

Sony's not exactly an unheard-of brand, and it did not take me long to identify this player, and its non-china pedigree. I'm no big fan of Sony (and they've cause me some grief in the past) but I'll gladly buy from them so long as they produce products that are not made in China.

It's also why I bought the Onkyo 886 instead of waiting for the 997.

It's also why I never bought an Outlaw sub - although for all of a bunch of other reasons I wanted one.

While a little difficult to do so, it's not impossible (nor even close to impossible) to find products that are not made in China. I do all of the time. Examples of non-Chinese things I've bought this week alone: shoes (Brazil); winter golf gloves (India); golf balls (USA; underwear (Costa Rica). Was not hard to avoid China.

Don't buy Chinese products - and write to the companies who you didn't buy from and tell them why you did not buy theirs.

I talked to an Oppo rep earlier this year who deeply regretted his/her company's practice of manufacturing in China. He/she wished it were not so. Trust me, if upon its release nobody bought the BDP-83, and wrote to say why not, production would have moved elsewhere overnight. If the excuse is that they need to do so in order to preserve the bottom line, losing a ton of sales will affect that bottom line even more.

Sorry but I don't buy the "they are all made in China" argument.

Suggestion: send the Oppo back as soon as it arrives. Tell them why. Go out and buy something else.

With regards to subwoofers, I was very remiss in my post above in not pointing out that my most recent sub purchase (October) was the made-in-USA SVS PB-13 Ultra!

At almost 3X the price of the Outlaw the SVS is a hell of a sub. When the LFM1-EX was on sale I could have bought two and still bought the OPPO. I would love to trace the origins of all the parts in my systems but it would only end up back in China no matter where it was assembled.

The SVS is sitting in my main HT - along with three other powered subs (2 Velodyne and 1 B&W.)

I was looking at the LFM for use in another room - where its size and performance (and price) would be more in line with the rest of the gear in that room.

I'm not so deluded as to believe that I can avoid anything that's made in China. Yes they are going to supply components. But if the OEMs stop manufacturing (and assembling) in China the percentage of components parts that are likewise made in China will drop as well. Besides, without the OEMs providing them with their latest and greatest designs (and methods etc.) the Chinese will be forced (more so than they are now) into stealing the technology that they use - and this will keep them behind the curve. Many an OEM has seen their design exiting another Chinese plant before it leaves the one he thought he was doing business with.

Let us assume that the OEMs can pull back out of China and start quality manufacture here in the states or anywhere else where it is acceptable, politically. What happens after that? As prices rise the little guys start to feel the heat of being the little guys. Not able to compete with Sony and the big guys, they go out of business or find cheaper ways to manufacture the goods. Bang they are right back in China!! What did it accomplish other than a short term rise in prices and a long term drop in quality.

Politically, the Chinese have come farther in the last two decades, towards becoming a peaceful member of the world community, than they had in the previous 3000 years. A big piece of that is the introduction of capitalism and all the joys it brings. Whether we like it or not, the Chinese are here to stay in the manufacturing of everything. 200 years ago the countries of Europe looked at America the same way.

I think much of the problem lies with the fact that companies that have been part of the American fabric have outsourced most if not all of their manufacturing to China. We are used to buying those names, and partly due to marketing or name recognition/reputation we've just continued to buy from them regardless of where the product is made. I was out this morning looking for some work gloves for my daughter's boyfriend, and every one of the Carhartt gloves were made in China. Yet how many guys who work outside still swear by Carhartt's? If the quality was bad I think eventually the brand would suffer. BTW, I ended up buying a pair by another brand that were made in Pakistan (which I'm not sure is any better).

It's kind of reminiscent to the late 60's...when anything made in Japan was considered cheap or of inferior quality to anything made in America. That's how a lot of people today view stuff made in China. In 20 years, made in China may mean high quality, who knows? I still make most of my buying choices by where it's made.

XenonMan,

I guess I don't share your world view nor your fatalistic approach vis-a-vis China. I see them as a huge threat on several levels: environmentally, economically, politically, and militarily. The consumer has made them what they are; the consumer can undo the damage he or she has done.

og33,

Recognizing that THE threat is China, my approach is quite simple: buy anywhere but from China. It has nothing to do with made-in-America (or Canada in my case) but simply not-made-in-China. Tackle the greatest threat now; worry about the others later. It also has nothing to do with quality - real or perceived. Western companies have effectively transferred (willingly or unwillingly) most, if not all, of their manufacturing prowess to the Chinese. There is no quality gap; in fact in some sectors (not pet food, canned milk, or children's jewelry - to name a few) it's quite the opposite.

I am encouraged by the number of people that I run into who at least claim that they try to avoid buying Chinese-made products. But avoidance is just the first step; the next is to tell companies why you are buying from them (in the case of non-Chinese products) in order to encourage them to continue doing so, and those companies why you are not (in the case of those who use China)to get them to change. I also disagree completely with XenonMan that such a move inevitably leads to increases in price and a decrease in quality.

Unlike some, I believe that grassroots consumerism can effect such a change. Not overnight (it would take a severe misstep by China to bring that on) but with time.

Not to turn this into a political forum but trying to stick to the electronics part, I can't imagine how we would ever figure out where the parts for our gear are made. From resistors capacitors and whatnot to chips and boards and cases and materials, how could we avoid sending $$$ to China. In principle I can see your point Jeff but in reality I do not believe it is possible to stem the flow. I do believe that every step China takes towards our way of life makes them less of a threat.

Let's forget completely about the political stuff for a moment. I'm talking about outright fraud, a poor business environment, laughably ineffective courts, etc. The Chinese have elevated cheating (bonus points if the victim is foreign) to an art form. Contracts are broken with impunity, poor quality parts are often substituted after the deal is done, etc. The local "partner" needs only to grease a couple of government palms and "the foreign partner" is effectively mired in red tape for years with little hope of restitution. Been there, done that, seen it a hundred times.

I lived and worked in China for a number of years and speak fairly fluent Mandarin as well as a good bit of Cantonese. There is NO WAY I'd advise a foreign company to do business there, especially if predictable quality and accountability from your business partners is important to them. There are other countries with much more sane/reliable business environments that also have inexpensive labor (if that's your thing).

Now back to the political side. Their government is abhorrent, capricious, and very corrupt. Corruption is EVERYWHERE. I'm unconvinced that the old argument that "give 'em a taste of capitalism and they'll come around" is going to work. I just don't see it. There is this "mei ban fa" mentality that the place has always been corrupt, the government has always sucked and that's just the way it is. The average guy on the street knows it's bad, but just doesn't care. I doubt we'll see a peaceful transition to anything resembling a democratic system within most of our lifetimes. But when change comes, it will come with a sudden lurch. I wouldn't want to be around when it happens. It will get very very ugly. The people in power have absolutely no qualms about turning the army on the people to maintain power. Fasten your seatbelts.

Best,

I temporarily gave up and decided to audition a Pioneer Elite receiver, and after about ten days sent it back to Best Buy due to green screen HDMI issues with non 1080p sources. The Pioneer didn't have the ability to update firmware by the owner so I'd have to take it to a shop. I had to consider a few things: How long would the unit sit at a repair shop? Could it take longer than the 30 days to get it taken care of? Would an upgrade to the firmware actually help? What if there wasn't a firmware nor one to solve my problem ever came about. I hated having to jimmy the unit every time that green screen came up (often). I can deal with upgrading firmware myself, but if a receiver is that much trouble I don't want to put that much trouble into it. I don't hold Pioneer solely responsible for the HDMI issues, but I'd like the unit to either work out of the box or at least not have to take it somewhere to have a fix that might not solve the problem.

So, I returned it.

I figured that Outlaw would probably be well more attentive to these types of issues and make better efforts to try to get any resolved. Funny thing is that just yesterday I was commenting about this, just in passing, over at AVS on the 972 thread and a very well meaning person has been trying to steer me toward an Integra. The 40.1 is in my price range, however it lacks multi-channel audio inputs, which I use for my Panasonic DVD-CP72 for DVD Audio so I'd have to buy a new player (Little doubt the Oppo Blu-ray) making any savings from the suggested AVS dealer pretty much a wash.

I was tempted to buy one, but I hated the idea of missing the Trinnov boat in case it's all they say and more, and now it turns out that others are reporting that the 972 is finally working and the sound is really something. So, unless Sherwood has sent in plants to pose as satisfied customers (Which would be incredibly low and I rather doubt they'd go to that much trouble - or maybe I'm naive. ) Maybe the light at the tunnel is finally here.

Very good points, and thank you for the update UtahGuy.

I have been loyal to the Outlaws for many of my electronic equipment needs because they have been so loyal to me and others who demand a high quality and sensible working platform without the frills. Frills (for me) include the extra channels and processing required for 9.1 audio. The ability to EQ room/speaker configurations so that the audio image is clearly defined as the engineers intended is the summit for me. It is my opinion that if the 997 feature set was defined by the Outlaws today, it would not include 9.1. More is not always better ... despite being able to sell more speakers, amps, and interconnects.

It is unfortunate that Outlaw has been made to endure development delays that I believe were beyond their control, and at the same time take such a personal hit from many in a customer base whose interests have been a primary focus of their design and marketing strategy.

I have the luxury to wait a few more months for Outlaw to get the 997 debugged and listen to the first wave of comments of new 997 owners. Unfortunately, some of my clients could not wait, and that is probably both their and Outlaw's loss, but it is not useful to make that point to them now. Let sleeping dogs lay.

I am making my New Year's wish that the Outlaws have a great 2010, and that we will all be the better for it. I am optimistic that the future will be bright, even if we have to move to higher ground and better built homes to avoid the floods, hurricanes, and other natural disasters caused by Global Warming. Stay inside, and enjoy your music and movies ...

Happy New Year