Hello All--

I am new to HT set up but am building a house and want to set this thing up right the first time. My budget is around $12K for all the components/wiring. If I can spend less then great but quality matters a lot. I've taken a couple of bids from some high end AV companies but have convinced myself that I can do this with the help of a couple of friends. The room for the home theater is 12 feet deep but 24' wide. A staircase separates the room into to halfs. The home theater system will be on the slightly wider side to get as much sitting space as possible. The couch will be pushed back as far as possible against the wall. So one of my main concerns is the positioning of the surrounds as they will be much closer to the listening area than all the other speakers. My plan is to mount some Axioum QS8's at around 54 inches. I am hoping that I will be able to calibrate the speakers so that there isn't a balance issue with the surrounds being too loud compared to the other speakers.

My other concerns and needs are:

1) Music is paramount. I have a huge collections of CD's and MP3's. I want the system to be very musical.. My interests include mostly hard rock/heavy metal/blues and some jazz. Pretty much anything that has great guitar work.

2) I want the system to be fully integrated with my computer system. I plan to have a dedicated server built to store all my MP3's, AVI's and can also be used for gaming. So any suggestions on video cards/sound cards that will work well with the following components will be greatly appreciated.

3) The system for the HT will be 5.1 due to the size of the room but I plan to buy a 7.1 system and use the extra 2 channels for my remote speakers around the house. There will be 10 sets of remote speakers. Mostly in ceiling.

4) I will be using a SlimDevices SqueezeBox to control my MP3's playing on the dedicated media server from around the house. If anyone has any experience with this unti, that would be great.

So as of today, I have narrowed the field to the following. Any comments or suggestions are really greatly appreciated.

Samsung HLN507W
Outlaw 950 Pre/Pro
Outlaw 770 Amp
Axiom M60 Front Speakers
Axiom VP150 Center
Axiom QS8 Surrounds
Axiom EP350 Sub(or possibly the Outlaw LFM-1 sub)

Denon DVD2900(not totally set on this) Any other suggestions welcome. It seems very expensive.

For cables and wiring I was going to go with the outlaw cables as they seem to be high caliber and a good value.

Another question is which of these has the best universal remote or do I need to buy a Harmony or Pronto type deal.

Thanks in advance for any responses.

CB

I agree that you can do it yourself. I'd get the builder to run wiring (or at least conduit) for speakers during construction, if you aren't already.

The Axioms are nice speakers -- I've been pretty pleased with the M3ti's I'm using as surrounds. I am still really fond of my Paradigm Reference speakers, but the Axioms are also very good. As for the sub, I'd probably go with the LFM-1 (it's a little less money than the EP350, and is a great sub for both movies and music).

The 770's extra channels should be aboe to handle the remote speakers, but some others around here may have some input on the specifics of hooking it all up -- there may be more involved than just connecting all ten pairs to the two channels.

The SlimDevices SqueezeBox is a really slick looking piece of equipment. I've experimented with their SlimServer software and been pretty pleased, but don't have any experience with the SqueezeBox itself.

Denon's DVD players have an excellent reputation. The Denon 2200 is very similar to the 2900 for about $400 less. There's also a universal player coming out for Yamaha this summer that will retail for $400 (the DVD-S1500). I'm hoping to try the Yamaha out, and will be reporting in to the forum when that happens.

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gonk -- 950 Review | LFM-1 Review | Pre/Pro Comparison Chart | Saloon Links

As for universal remotes, the new Harmony has been getting good reviews but I also am still very pleased with my Home Theater Master MX-500. It and the MX-700 are great universal remotes. The 950's remote (an SL-9000) is less flexible than the Harmony and the MX-500, but I found it to be a pretty good universal remote as well. It would certainly be worth experimenting with a bit before deciding to invest in an additional remote.

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gonk -- 950 Review | LFM-1 Review | Pre/Pro Comparison Chart | Saloon Links

Gonk--

Thanks for the reply. I am feeling pretty confident with my selections at this point. As of yesterday I was going to go with the Paradigm Studio 40's for my fronts but kept finding posts on Axiom and they seem to have quite a good reputation and value proposition.

Haven't heard of the Home Theater Master remotes but I'll check into them. The thing that attracted me to the Harmony was the fact that you could download the codes for each device off the internet which seems like a good idea to me and the price point is about 1/2 of the Pronto. I'll try the Outlaw remote first though like you suggested.

Thanks again.

If you buy the 950/770 combo, some great deals have just been announced in the latest newsletter ... the deal gets even sweeter when you add an LFM-1 or two.

[This message has been edited by bestbang4thebuck (edited May 18, 2004).]

I've got a review of the MX-500 on my site, if you're interested. It's available from several online distributors for $100.

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gonk -- 950 Review | LFM-1 Review | Pre/Pro Comparison Chart | Saloon Links

Not to throw a wrench in here, but would he want to wait a few weeks until after the show to see what Outlaw unveils?

Won't be pulling the trigger for another couple of months.

Another question I have is what do I have to buy to control the various other speakers around the house. I will be buying the 770 and using the 2 extra channels(HT system will be 5.1) for my 10 sets of remote speakers. There will be keypads in each room to control volume and whatelse I'm not really sure. Is there an off switch on each keypad or does the amp constantly transmit music to those various units and you just adjust the volume up and down. If so, is 200 watts for 20 speakers enough.

Obviously, I haven't thought this part through yet.

cbell check out Niles and see what they have to offer. I feel they make solid products.

I think Keta's got the right idea here - a Niles speaker distribution hub would let you connect the 770's two spare channels to eight pairs of speakers, each with a wall-mounted volume control in the remote space. If I'm thinking clearly this afternoon, it should be possible to connect two 8-ohm speakers to one output of the hub and count that as a single 4-ohm speaker, allowing you to feed all ten remote pairs from the pair of extra channels on the 770. Niles recommends 16ga for runs up to 80 feet and 14ga for any runs longer than that.

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gonk -- 950 Review | LFM-1 Review | Pre/Pro Comparison Chart | Saloon Links

Very helpful. Thank you. So the way I see it I need Stereo Volume Controls for each room, a distribution hub and a speaker selector. My wiring guy says he uses Russound for the speaker selector/hub and M&S for the volume controls. Any comments on these brands?

You may only need volume controls in aech room and not a selector. Go to Niles or Crutchfield and read about them. They have some pretty good information.

Right--1 selector, 1 hub and a volume knob in every room.

Sorry cbell I just thought if you were using the 950 and you would use the zone 2 for all the remote speakers making the speaker selector unnecessary. If you do use a speaker selector you could do away with the volumes in each room but that may be inconvenient. One problem with the Niles stuff is most will only take up to 14ga. 12ga will work (I do it) but it's a tight fit.

well, i have to say that if I were buying A SUB, it would be only from one brand. that brand is velodyne. i would buy the best that i could afford, best being Digital Drive 1812 Signature Edition, however it costs over $5k i think. next would be DD-18, then HGS-15X. i currently have several HGS-II 18s, which incorporate everything the newer models (except 1812) do except for the parametric eq feature, same amps, same driver, etc. i will NEVER go to any other sub manufacturer unless velodyne goes out of business. i have used them for years; i will use them for many more. they always get glowing reviews, they have good people working there, and they are reliable.
anthem makes an AVM20, coming out with statement D1, which i think is best pre/pro money being secondary.
i would probably give outlaw amps a try, m200s are my style. rotel is nice too though.
as far as speakers, i am not as interested in them, so i dont keep up with a lot of brands, so i wont waste your time.
dvd player=DENON, whatever one you want. if sacd is important, then the 1200, if not 910 (which is what i have). keep in mind dvd is soon going to be revolutionized with blu laser technology, so dont waste your money now.
niles make good distribution systems.
cables, there are a lot that are fine. buy a good sub cable, buy good analog cables, and buy good speaker wire. video and digital i have found to have smaller quality gains with significant price gains.
THE SAMSUNG DLPS ARE JUNK. if you must get DLP, get a front projector using 3 chip setup (there are several brands that are good, runco being best, but too much for the 15k range im sure). unfortunately there are not too many 50in tvs to recommend, they all have serious issues, hence my suggestion for front projector.
hope that helps you out some.

Keta--

My wiring guy uses Russound for the speaker selector. Know anything about these? I don't know that it matters that much as it seams like a pretty simple device. I definately want volume knobs in each room and need a centralized location downstairs to turn speakers on/off. The actual music will be housed in HT which is way off to one side of the house and up a set of stairs.

curegeorg--

All of those brands have been on and off my list. They have Velodyne subs at the new Tweeter close by. What would you recommend in the $500/600 range from Velodyne. No way can I afford $5K. I was going to go with Anthem AV20 before I read about the Outlaw stuff which seems very competitive. Also looked at Rotel very closely. The Outlaw combo just seems like the best value and that is important to me.

My biggest concern is your bashing of the Samsung DLP. I have not read anything negative except that there may be some voice synch problems with video(though this is a big problem). I talked with Samsung and they are working on the problem and said they were working with consumers that have already purchased their product. What else is wrong. Front Projection won't work for me due to the room lay out. Plasma won't work due to the screen burn issues and the price. I guess that leaves LCD and LCoS. Do you like any of these? If so why.

Hey you guys are being a great help and I really appreciate your input.

For a sub in your price range stick with the LFM-1 or one of the Hsu VTF or STF series subs. All of these get great praise, especially in the "Bang-for-Buck" category. As for other items on your list, sorry, I can't offer any valid advice!

cbell this is how it appears to me. Both volume controls from either Niles or Russound are attenuators with autformers which allow for impedance matching of multiple speakers being driven by the amp. I doubt one is of superior quality to the other with both being very good. Neither manufacturer recommends 12ga wire, they only recommend up to 14ga which I believe would suffice given your application. If I understand correctly what you want to do is hook up your HT as usual with the 950/770 powering your 5.1 setup. Use the two remaining channels on the 770 as Zone 2 and supply the distribution block(not a switcher). Come out of the distribution block and feed each volume control. With this setup you would enable zone 2, set the volume on the 950 to a predetermined value(when you want music in the other rooms)and then you can go to any of your rooms and turn up the volume using the Niles or Russound controls. Both manufacturers even offer these volume controls with IR receivers so you could control the 770 and other sources from the other rooms. Hope this helps.

That is very close to how I understand it though I am a little shaky on the terminology. The only thing is they are running 16 guage wire for all of these remote speakers. I think the limitation for 16 guage was 80 feet. So I don't think that will be a problem.

curegeorg--
What would you recommend in the $500/600 range from Velodyne.
Answer:dls-3750. however i have not heard it and it is a newer model. if you ask velodyne they would say nothing lower than the spls though, and i would agree. look at the specs of the spls compared to less expensive models, there is a tremedous difference. (specs. are great to compare inner-brand like that, and velodyne is pretty detailed) come on with a 15k budget, you cant honestly expect to only spend 500 on a subwoofer... spls are around 1k i think. 1/15 of your system on the most important speaker is not too much.

I was going to go with Anthem AV20 before I read about the Outlaw stuff which seems very competitive. Also looked at Rotel very closely. The Outlaw combo just seems like the best value and that is important to me.
Comment- the best is what it is, nothing more and nothing less.

My biggest concern is your bashing of the Samsung DLP. ... I guess that leaves LCD and LCoS. Do you like any of these? If so why.
1-Samsung is cheap. 2-Samsung is cheap. 3-Rainbow effect (it drove my friend nuts, and he went with sony lcd projection (NOT WEGA THOUGH) and loved it, just not quite as black). 4-I have seen/heard of numerous problems with the color wheel and it has been out how long? 5-Fan failure (i know of one that popped, sizzled, and smoked) 6-DLP is best with 3 chip; samsung does not offer that yet 7-1st generation available to consumer 8-Did I already mention that Samsung is cheap? Well they spend more money on developing new techs. rather than implementing what they have correctly. They are cutting edge, but at all costs, which means low quality workmanship. I can go on and on, but basically they make junk. LCoS is too much for your budget I would think. I saw the Mitsu when it came out and it is nicer than LCD, but not as much as I thought it would have been. I dont think it justifies the price... However compare the two side by side somewhere and see for yourself. I dont know of who exactly offers LCoS, but a bunch of companies make LCD with Sony being best (i dont care for Sony and they make turds from time to time, and i know of a lot of problems with their LCD projection too, but still better than Samsung DLP)

Sherwood just came out with an updated pre/pro, so check it out. I bet outlaw will get a very similar model, like before, but maybe not. if they do it will be less $$.

why i dont like lcds, not pure black and cellular gridding on big screens. sometimes you see that look of a cheap video card, like particles around objects because the colors are changing so quickly and the cells arent small enough to differeniate them. it looks like fog on a bad video card, is how i can best describe it... lcd pixels burn out, change colors, etc... and are not ALWAYS covered under your warranty depending on where they are, how many, etc.
i have 65" RPTV, and while it is a smidge behind in detail i prefer its more filmlike look for movies. colors are more solid, because there are no cells. i watch 95% movies in the theatre, a little tv and a little audio.

So for comparison sake I'll use the DSL-4000 (yes i said dsl-3750 above, buy i want to compare 12" vs 12", outlaw=o, velodyne=v)

Driver Type: (o)Down Firing, 12" Long-throw Woofer;(v) 12" forward firing 9.9" piston diameter with vented pole piece. Advantage:velodyne, front is better

Ports: (o)Dual;(v)Extended Excursion Slot-Loaded Bass-Reflex
Advantage:tie, bass-reflex and dual are not so hot

Amplifier Power Rating: (o)325WRMS; 1300W peak;(v)200,400.
Advantage n specs alone, outlaw, however power rating is misleading, because the application and quality of the power are integral to its usefullness. so most people say lfm-1 is good, so ill go with them.

Frequency Response: (o)25Hz. -180Hz. +/- 2 dB;(v)25-120Hz +/-3 dB
Advantage:tie

Weight: (o)58 lbs;(v) 63 lbs
Advantage: more weight tends to make one think better build quality, larger components, better heat dissipation, but ill rate them even, so tie.

It is tought to say between those two, on specs. I may say Outlaw, however if you compared them side by side I would say tie, with my taste telling me Velodyne. However the SPL would crush those two, and is my recommendation for lower cost subwoofer. If you cheap out on the sub, you will always regret it.

To that person who said Hsu, yes they make ok subs, but only once you get into the tubular series (which is more $). Who really wants a tubular sub? The sonics of a tube may be great if you engineer it well enough, but ill stick with my driver firing to the front and cabinet normal. I think tube, I think bazooka, and when I think bazooka I think weapon not audio.

[This message has been edited by curegeorg (edited May 21, 2004).]

Wow curegeorg, you answered my question. Now I'm left wondering what to do. Especially with the monitor issue. Maybe I need to reconsider front projection. I haven't really looked into it b/c I have very limited space between the front and back of the home theater(11') and obviously I have to have seating and possibly a coffee table. So what can you suggest for under $4K for a front projection that would work well with that kind of space. And is front projection good for regular TV? If not, how about HDTV?

None of this is set in stone. I won't be moving until August/September so I think I will have a chance to get the next generation stuff and maybe some of the issues you have mentioned will be addressed. If I did go DLP is any brand that you would suggest?

Thanks again for all the info. Just need to digest it now!

If you haven't done so already, I'd suggest doing some demoing of TV's. I've got a co-worker who has been agonizing over a new TV purchase for close to a year (he almost pulled the trigger after a nasty wind storm last summer that took out his power for a week and caused the audio in his Sony to freak out for a while). He started out wanting plasma, but not surprisingly abandoned that. He's been comparing CRT, LCD, and DLP rear projection for at least six months, and he's about ready to pick up a Samsung DLP. Get a look first-hand at DLP, LCD, and CRT RPTV's. See if the rainbow effect bugs you (some people never notice it, while for others it seems to claw at their eyes from across the room). Check out some of the CRT RPTV's like Toshiba and Mitsu - well-established technology, although there can be trade-offs (poorer off-axis viewing comes to mind).

The current state of TV tech can be a real headache. LCD and DLP rear projection are both fairly young and growing at a startling rate, with associated growing pains. Plasma and LCD flat panels each offer benefits, drawbacks, and sticker shock. Direct view has even had trouble moving into HD resolutions (although so far I'm really pleased with my 32" HD tube). You've got time to scope out all the options and wait for the newer models (seven-segment color wheels on DLP, newer chips, ...).

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gonk -- 950 Review | LFM-1 Review | Pre/Pro Comparison Chart | Saloon Links

honestly, i dont know much about front projection models at the moment. so for a price budget, avs has a whole area on displays, two of the threads are relevant to this topic. 3500+,3500-. heres the link
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/forumdisplay.php?forumid=9

lucky for you, there are not SO many manufacturers of projectors for ht use, however there are still quite a few. i have always felt kind of funny watching normal (non hdtv) tv on my big screen, it just seems wrong to be watching it so big... gonk is correct when he says check out some units side by side.

Just a little sub-comparo info to fan the flames....
http://www.subwooferinfo.com/

Happy reading

lots of older models in that listing.

lots of older models.
i came across this one article a while ago that calculated spl and thd at the same frequency, that is a true test of a sub. lots of things can be loud, loud and clear is much rarer. velodyne accels at loud and clear. i will look for the article.

ah, here is what i was looking for, however it is for the dd18, the 2nd page is what i am talking about, hz with spl and distortion.
http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_10_4/velodyne-dd-18-subwoofer-12-2003-part-1.html

It is an interesting site, but - as curegeorg points out - SPL alone does not a good sub make.

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gonk -- 950 Review | LFM-1 Review | Pre/Pro Comparison Chart | Saloon Links

Linear SPL + fast transitions + low extension does a good subwoofer make.

I forget where sunfire's were mentioned, maybe it was here, maybe it wasn't, but if their bigger subs are anything like the Jr then the RMS power should be around 270 watts. They've had on their site before that the Jr was about 125 RMS and 1250 max. Peak of 10 times the RMS which is incredible. A store guessed about 400-500 RMS for them.

I hear excellent things about velodynes. I wish I could hear one of the higher end ones for myself.

Nothing beats free info from someone trying to prove a point

Impressive sub. For 5K it had better be. Back to reality.... subs under 1K. Does velodyne offer this technology in this very important price class? Not likely. I would put the models I suggested earlier up against any comparably priced(even double the price)velo out there. Maybe as "trickle-down" reaches this category we can have apples to apples comparisons between these brands. For now, I haven't seen or heard anything to convince me otherwise.

Guys I appreciate all the info. It will take me a couple of days to digest. The most expensive sub that Tweeter carries is the DLS400B.

http://www.tweeter.com/product/index.jsp...rentPage=family

How would this compare to the Outlaw sub?

I know there is a million combos to chose from which I guess is a good thing.

I'm wiring for a second sub in the back of the room in case just one sub doesn't due the trick but this will not be a huge home theater so I won't need a huge sub hopefully.

for somewhere around 1k you can get some Velodyne SPLs, their website while better than it used to be is still lacking msrp. you can use their which product function, which is where i am getting these prices...

SPLs are 1000rms 2000peak.

peak of 10 times is nice, but that just reaches (with a lot more distortion im sure) where my subs start. 1250rms, peak over 3000wts.


[This message has been edited by curegeorg (edited May 22, 2004).]

read my post up above, i compared these two based on their specs. however now i see that the outlaw has 1300wts peak, so that may just tilt me a little towards them. however specs can be misleading, and i havent heard either, and i know that velodyne makes great products all the way down their line. outlaw is well respected, and hsu is too, so im sure they are ok as well. for me, i know velodyne has spend many, many years developing subwoofers and that is why they sit atop the class.

Peak doesn't mean much of anything unless we know how it was derived. Well, really if all are derived from the same method of testing. Is there a standard for that in home theater? There isn't in cars, so everyone with any intelligence just ignores it. What about for RMS? My understanding is that it's sustained power for 8 hours or more. Is it the same for HT?

I had actually been hearing from some guys who know more that the Sunfire is priced kind of high for what it can do. Like georg said, probably has more distortion at the higher levels. It's been quite some time since I heard one. I've learned a lot more since then too.

Sorry I couldn't just let this one go, but I don't see anything here that would actually tell me which one will sound better. More explanation?

perhaps saying who had the advantage wasnt clear enough... between those two models i concluded they were comparable at first, taking into account bigger amp in lfm1 (higher peak too), the edge would go to it on specs, but specs arent everything and i havent heard either. then i said the spl is best inexpensive sub. that is what i said isnt it? should i repeat my post further, or is this one saying the same thing more clearly for you now?

Well actually I think I wasn't clear enough. You can judge subs if you have the right specs. We don't, so it's best to not judge by them. As you have pointed out as well, it can be very misleading. Based off the info given I wouldn't give the edge to either one, nor would I call it a tie. Just undecided. There is nothing to tell us about distortion or transient response. There is partial info on loudness (via power), but we'd be kidding ourselves if we thought the more powerful one would always be louder. There are other ways to get more volume.

I said the following in another post as well. I know of the right specs to use, but I don't know where to get them and I'm only so-so at reading them anyway.

i know enough about other velodynes to post on their specs, but specs really mean nothing unless you know what they mean. so it seems that if you do know what they tend to mean you can make an informed observation on the qualities. yes it is just speculation, but educated is better than nothing.

You do seem educated some. No offense, but most everything in that comparison on the last page doesn't mean a thing towards how it will sound in the categories I mentioned. You must know what you don't know. Sometimes the best conclusion is to realize that no conclusion can be made.

to know your limitations is vital, and no one knows it all. when all you have to go on is specs, then what do you propose jt? the only reason the velodyne tied is because i know how they sound, thats not specs or speculation. specs dont ever say it all or how something will sound, however they can narrow down the choices. i.e. you want component video inputs, you want 15 digital audio inputs, you need 12 volt triggers, you want a sub with over 1000watts rms, etc. if some product doesnt meet a SPEC (spec includes features) you are looking for, then its important to look at. if some amp has 95% thd, then its safe to say its unsuited for audio... people come to these sites for links to info, and to get info from people who have used/know what they are talking about. what kind of sub do you have jt? what have you had?

Uh, get off your tail and go listen to it? If that's not possible then check out reviews. Find reviews where they use the same conditions for each sub/speaker so that the comparisons are more valid. Should do both, really. If you don't have the information you need, then don't make a decision. It's that simple.



You can not make educated guesses if you don't have the right info. People who think they can are just kidding themselves. We're talking about subs, so I don't think component inputs is a very important feature here. Features are very nice, but sometimes people forget that they're buying the product for the sound. You can look at features all you want, but they won't tell you how it sounds.

I'm just using the subs built into my main speakers for now, Mirage OH-5's. I've also used the Klipsch 5.1 computer setup. That's all for HT. I have demoes some others, but I'm doing fine with what I have right now. As for cars, I've used Infinity Kappa Perfects and a JBL WGTi.

[This message has been edited by JT Clark (edited May 26, 2004).]

OK I get the point. That's enough with arguing.

Just got back from the house and I had the wiring guys run wire for a possible rear sub but they ran 16 guage wire. Is that appropriate? If not, what should I have them run?

Thanks again.

so jt, are there any reviews like you speak of? i cant go listen to it either.

middle part is suming up what i said.

the last paragraph is where your post got good. "I'm just using the subs built into my main speakers for now." im still laughing for you to be posting like you have any idea what is going on with subwoofers and then spit out a comment like that. thats like a kid playing teeball, talking about playing in the majors and saying he could hit like Barry Bonds, he might get there someday, but hes nowhere close right now.



[This message has been edited by curegeorg (edited May 26, 2004).]

jt, my educated approach to telling if a sub is good or not, is better than any approach you may have because I HAVE owned/demoed in my home so many different subs to know the differences between good and bad ones, and to know that i am not fine with subs built into my mains as my only sub. so not only do i understand the specs, i can translate them, user input, and personal experience to come up with a conclusion. you on the other hand are just sitting on the sidelines nitpicking, with no reference of what makes a quality subwoofer, rehashing what has been said already. come up with something helpful/useful/original to let people decide what is a good product for them; saying go listen to it or read professional (electronically tested at least) reviews is great for products that you can do that with, however it is not always an option. you have offered no method to draw a conclusion on something when the above cannot be met, you are merely criticizing when others do it. it is a common theme in your posting, and frankly it is unnecessary to restate the obvious. i dont think the world needs another John Madden voice.

Wiring for a possible future rear subwoofer:

If the future subwoofer is going to have a built-in amplifier, then you will need a good quality shielded cable run to the rear. If you don’t know whether that sub will have a balanced or unbalanced connection, I would have a cable run for balanced (two insulated conductors within a shield) signals. If you later run unbalanced, the balanced cable can easily be wired as unbalanced.

If the amp for the subwoofer is going to be separate and only the driver/enclosure will be at the rear, then the larger the gauge, the better. Woofers with large excursions do much better with good damping, wire of too small a gauge will do away with much of the damping factor. If the cable is being run over a distance of fifty feet or so, that means the signal will travel through about 100 feet of wire for a round trip. In such a situation my choice would be about 12 gauge copper wire. If the run is 75 feet or more, I would look to install 10 gauge. Others have installed lighter gauge wiring with no problem, but I don’t know what impedance the sub’s drivers will be. My personal preference: for lower impedance drivers and longer the cable runs, the lower the resistance of the cable should be.

See these charts for reference:

http://www.powerstream.com/Wire_Size.htm

http://www.epanorama.net/documents/wiring/wire_resistance.html

Note that they don’t agree on the exact numbers, but they do agree in principle.

I'm understanding why soundhound seems to dislike you so much. You have shown nothing as to why a sub should sound better than the other in your review. I've listened to a number of subs in demo rooms. You only asked about ones that I have owned. Why do I have to spend several grand on a sub to understand what makes them sound good? Are you really that ignorant and in love with yourself? How about buy them both, demo them, and return the one you don't like as much? Also, I did NOT say these were the best subs ever. Did it ever occur to you I might be saving up for something else? Maybe I should get a nicer place to live first. I am content with what I have now, but I know there is better.

In that two sub comparison from before there is absolutely nothing that will tell you one sub is better than the other. Alright, frequency response may be of some use, but do you know if they were measured under the same conditions? I'd like to see the graph plotted out instead. Yes, I sound like a broken record here, but what about distortion and transient response? There's nothing on those two.

I admit when I don't know something. I don't try to blow smoke and pretend there is useful information where there isn't.

[This message has been edited by JT Clark (edited May 26, 2004).]

thanks for sticking with the same silly argument. the point is, do YOU have anything to offer anyone as far as advice in looking at subwoofers?, obviously you do not or you would have said something new. anything i said would obviously mean nothing to you, because you said yourself (not in so many words) that you dont know jack about subwoofers. until you do, then stop posting about them. even better until you own one... your speculation is just that, you have no experience, you have no knowledge, you are offering no insight, and yet you are still talking about something that you dont know about... it is pretty funny. again ill pose the question, what is one to do if they cant demo a product or read a technical review of it, come on jt answer the question for once.

its still pretty smoky in here, its a good thing i turned the fan on and saw what was underneath that smoke... nothing.
wait it was my copy of the lotr3 which you said wasnt out yet... doh, howd you get it?

[This message has been edited by curegeorg (edited May 26, 2004).]

curegeorg > all

I'll stop this ridiculous nonsense here because obviously you can't know anything unless you have lots of money to throw around.

JT don't let it get to you. Think of it as poison ivy, you scratch for a while but it doesn't help so eventually you leave it alone and it goes away on it's own......stop scatching, it won't help. Most gunslingers have figured that out over time.

[This message has been edited by Keta (edited May 26, 2004).]

It goes away on it's own, but if I stop scratching it won't help? Is that just a typo?

man, i am so allergic to posion ivy its not even funny. i have to get a shot if i get anywhere near that stuff, if not, it is agonizing. interesting to see this topic in another forum that you started jt... ill drop the subject we were addressing earlier, so we can move on to better things.

[This message has been edited by curegeorg (edited May 27, 2004).]

there are lots of inexpensive subs. i never said you had to buy and expensive one, just best you can afford. just one at all is an improvement over none.

Yeah, I know just what you mean. I paid this company more than 40 g's for my theater in my home. The wife and kids loved it, but it turns out the freaking subs didn't coordinate good with my big front speakers. Turns out these guys weren't so expert as they said in the beginning. I can't say I would recommend them highly.

So I moved the subs to my boat, and if you have a party, like in nice whether and all, you couldn't get the subs to sound loud enough. Please let me know if you know what would sound good, for a 50 foot Hatteras (36 inch twin square screws powered by two 800 horsepower diesel engines). I will have a lot of friends out on the water this spring, so perhaps you could come along. I am sure you could be a big help. We will be taking the boat out a lot this year, so it's not a problem.

sorry i dont live near nj, i was born there though. id say the best sub available is the Velodyne Digital Drive Signature 1812. if you wanted multiples, maybe the Digital Drive 18 would do for cost reasons. i couldnt tell you how well they would perform on a yacht, seeing as i havent heard anything more than a radio while boating. i do think that if the seas were rough it would throw off the servo control, and give you a little more distortion, but you would have to contact velodyne about the ill effects. at avs forum they have a link where a velodyne rep posts/replies to inquiries...

Tony, do you want to make your own topic so we might go into more detail? I think curegeorg and I hijacked this poor thread too much already.

you better have your ak ready, because there are jackers in site. to paraphrase ice cube.

I ment no disrespect. I didn't want to interfear with your discussion. I just was thinking about how your friend seems to know so much about subwoofers, and that I have this problem with them. I don't have any problems with you either.

Please, let me know if there is something I can do for you. To be honest, I don't know a lot about home theaters and music equipment, but I like to watch old movies and listen to music. It is important to have a place to escape, when everyday life becomes complicated. This has been a tough year.

jt isnt my friend. :-) i do know just about as much as i claim to know... i, however, am a little bored on the whole topic of subwoofers. i need to come up with something new that i want to get to take up my focus, i guess i could finally assemble my diy speaker cables and write a review for the 3805, but that isnt gonna be a ton of fun while doing it. i really really really wanted to try bass shakers, but the old lady threw a wrench in that plan. speaking of them, im gonna start a topic to see if anyone uses them.

cbell-

You have some interesting choices there. I'd suggest the following:

Outlaw 950
Outlaw 7100

that runs $1600, and you save $800 for video.

I'd ditch the Samsung, and get a BenQ PB8700 and a 100 inch Da-Lite screen. This should run you around $6300.

So $4100 left for speakers, DVD and wiring.

I'd go with a NAD DVD player, T533. It had DVD-A, but no SACD. NO DVI either.

You said CD playback was important, and the NAD kicks the Denon's ass in 2 channel sound (and multichannel sound for that matter).

I'd either go with the NAD, or I'd WAIT and just get a cheap Toshiba DVD player and wait a year for the companies like NAD, Arcam, etc. to make a DVD player with DVD-A and DVI.

That Denon sucks ass for sound (sorry that is the nicest way to put it).

If you go NAD, that leaves you $3600 for speakers. I'd put the money in the fronts, center, and sub. The rears should be cheapest Axiom speakers you can get.

You can do it all for $12000 and get a big nice DLP picture with great CD playback.

Don't sell your system short, if you have the space (and its hard to figure out if you do) you should get a DLP FPTV. 12k is more than enough for it, and great sound.

I'd either save $$$$ on the DVD and wait a year for companies that make awesome sounding DVD players to catch up with DVI or I'd jump on the NAD. IMHO its the best sounding DVD player under $500. The video on it is rather good too. It just doesn't have DVI.

[This message has been edited by lotus_j (edited June 05, 2004).]

Lotus--

Thanks for the reply. I have looked a bit into FPTV but I really don't think it will work for my particular set up as the ceilings are only 8' and the wall were the screen will be is only about 10'. A 100" screen would be way to big anyway since we will only be sitting 12' max from the screen.

Since my first post I've decided to have an aquaintance build a media server w/ top of the line video card and sound card and 2 250 GB hard drives to house all my music and some video(VCD type stuff). I also think it will have the capability to do some TIVO type recording of regular programming. So for the DVD player I think the video will be paramount. The Denon is a bit steep and I was thinking about going with the cheaper Denon and I'll look at your suggestion as well. DVD player is really still up in the air for me.

I actually have a 3rd floor in this house that is about 800 square feet that one day will be a perfect HT. I am roughing in the electrical and HVAC and will probably insulate and sheetrock. In that room there is no question that I will have FPTV. It will be perfect. Hopefully in the next couple of years prices will come down too.

Projector prices are DEFINATELY coming down. I bet Mustang DLPs will get as low as $4500 and even possibly $4000 by this Christmas. Same quality DLPs should be around $3000 next Christmas if not less.

The Projector companies are trying to push their product into retail stores like Best Buy. Once they succeed prices will drop, and boutique stores will have less going for them.

I'm all for better deals for the consumer, but I really don't want to see the death of the mom&pop stores.

I cannot speak from first hand knowledge but it seems there are a lot of people with Media PC's that are using the PC for their DVD as well. You might want to consider that, one less component, less cables etc..

I was definately thinking of that and more than likely will opt for that initially. Wondering if you can buy a DVD player of a PC that also plays DVD-A and SACD.

I'd wait for a PC that can do both (or either). I don't think SACD is available yet. No drive I know of is rated to play DVD-Audio, but the SB Audigy 2 sound card can decode it. My computer can read the DVD-Audio section, but it just quits working at times. The recording sounds excellent when it runs though. It either works or it doesn't.

Have they come up with a codec to compress SACD or DVD-A into an MP3 type format? This would eliminate the problem completely. At least for me. I really like having everything at a click of a button.

Then I need a DVD player for video only.

Since the heart of DVD-A and SACD is their higher resolution, funnelling either format through a lossy compression algorithm will be a hard sell. The idea of an MP3 equivalent for multi-channel audio is interesting (sort of a hybrid of MP3 and DD 5.1), but I don't know how likely it is to ever appear.

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gonk -- 950 Review | LFM-1 Review | Pre/Pro Comparison Chart | Saloon Links

PCs just sound worse. There is way to much going in a PC for it to have audiophile sound. An MP3 sounds loads better being copied onto a disc and played back off a good DVD player.

Somebody need new computer stuff?

But serisously, if you want DVD-Audio and SACD quality then I wouldn't mess with computers until the technology has been out for awhile. Infantile stuff will be buggy and expensive. If you want massive storage of songs that are of decent quality then a computer can do good at that.

i totally agree with that. i have a new computer (via upgrades lately), and playing an mp3 from the hard drive compared to playing it in my dvd player (in the computer) is night and day. of course once they are on disk they are not in mp3 format (cda), and i think the less work that the computer has to do on the fly equals better sound quality.

playing dvd discs back from your computer is very expensive to get quality as good as inexpensive dvd players...

i use an xpc networked to my main computer for media playback through my system. it is nice and small.

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This post has been brought to you by curegeorg, thanks for reading.

For those saying that PC audio sounds bad, what kind of interface are you using between your computer and your audio system? Is it an analog connection or a digital connection? Just wondering...

Once I get my system set up I will let you know if an MP3 at a high bit rate(192Kbps and up) really doesn't sound as good as a CD. I can't tell a difference on the system I have now which is basically a computer w/ Klipsch Promedia 2.1 speakers.

I've heard it told both ways and don't have the sound system to really bring out the differences. And if you burn an MP3 to disc aren't you going to hear the supposed loss of quality since the MP3 will have already lost some of the original quality? Once it is lost you can not get it back. No?

Seems the wave of the future is mass storage vs having to change discs all the time. Sound and Vision just had a huge report on media servers and didn't mention anything about--if you do this then your music won't sound as good.

Plus all the problems that sites like Napster that charge per download will have. If the music is inferior they are ultimately doomed to failure(Eventhough a lot of people don't really give a crap).. Either way if I can tell a difference then I will be changing my set up. So time will tell.

Don't forget that the computer components make a big difference as well. I could tell a big difference with mine when I upgraded.

I have the Klipsch ProMedia 5.1 setup. For me, mp3's are close enough to CDs that I just don't care. My focus is on websurfing, playing games, or whatever. The music is a nice bonus. I don't know how to quantify how much the speakers might be limiting things though. They're very good for computer speakers, but pale in comparison my HT.

Once you go down in quality you can't get it back. Butning the mp3 to CD format is really just converting it over to the .wav format. The original .wav file will be better than this new .wav file despite the size. Actually, it'd be interesting to see how the two of them compare in size now.

it is easier for your computer to play back the cda file than the mp3, because it requires less processing to play back the cda. that is why i was saying it sounded better from the disc and that is the only reason why...

once it goes to mp3, it will be whatever quality it was ripped in and no better forever... lots of times now a days you can find higher resolution mp3 files though...

i will say that hearing a song recorded by a studio onto a cd is better than hearing a downloaded mp3 burned onto a cd. even with high bitrates mp3s lose a little of the low and high end and compress all the data in between.

the main reason for playing mp3s directly from the computer.... convenience. the little bit of diminshed sound quality is more than made up for by being able to play thousands of files in any way you want to.

you guys should try myhtpc, i know a lot of people who like it.

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This post has been brought to you by curegeorg, thanks for reading.

A computer today will have plenty of free cpu cyles to decode whatever audio format you run through it. One of my pc's has a digital out and I have that routed through to my stereo and I am happy with the sound.
If you are using iTunes then in a few weeks you will be able to buy the Apple Airport that will let you wirelessly send your audio wherever you want and still send that digitally into your receiver.

if that is all it took for a computer to play music that would be great...

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This post has been brought to you by curegeorg, thanks for reading.

Sound quality has nothing to do with CPU cycles (except when the sound stops if your computer is too busy doing something else). CD's sound better than MP3's simply because they have more information in them.
It has been my experience that the biggest problem with using PC's for audio playback was all the electrical interference going on inside the machine impacting the audio out. It would seem to me though if you can keep the signal in the digital domain, and decode that digital signal in the receiver then you should have a good clean signal.

perhaps, at least a lot more sound cards have digital outs now. mine does and it is integrated into the mb. which im sure is probably why i get a little lag sometimes when listening to mp3s and while doing whatever else i may be doing on the computer. but the integrated sc is better than the other one i have, and i dont critically listen via this comp, so screw it, im getting a sc till this integrated one breaks.

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This post has been brought to you by curegeorg, thanks for reading.