Has Outlaw dropped the ball completely this time around?

I'm sorry guys but I've been a long time member here and very quietly reading the latest Outlaw news while enjoying my old 950/7100 combo but I feel I must speak up.

Why has Outlaw completely gave up on making there own products!

When I took a chance and bought the 950 it was because these new guys the "Outlaws" were doing something no one else had the balls to do.

Build a product that was so amazing in Price/Performance that all the big boys/old timers in the game were left scrambling trying to come up with something to compete.

It made you feel as though you were part of an audio revolution.

Outlaw innovated and others copied there design.

After that amazing success though things seemed to slip.

We were promised at the time of the 950 release that Outlaw was working on a "Truly High End Piece" of there own design.

Alas it never came to be.

Instead all of us waiting for that unit were handed a reworked SN receiver in Pre/Pro form the 990.

Now granted the 990 was a nice sounding piece of gear (SN makes nice gear) but it was in no way an Outlaw product.

The innovation was gone.

Now I'm seeing "Outlaw" speakers that are not "Outlaw" speakers. "Outlaw" subs that are made by Velodyne.

Countless other products that there just selling here without so much as the rebadge.

Now because of this trend to use others products and imitate rather than innovate we the loyal Outlaw fans, have no new Pre/Pro at all.

They will however sell us a stop gap Onkyo receiver and say its to help us out!

I'm sure padding there bottom line didn't hurt either.

This may sound like a Rant but please take this as a Plea instead.

Dear Outlaws,

Please go back to making your own products. Ones that set the bar for others to follow.

If we wanted to buy renamed mass produced audio gear we would shop at Best Buy.

Lasher

Hey, Lasher - haven't seen you around in a bit. I know your post isn't meant as a rant, but I wanted to toss out some of my own thoughts on the matter. Believe me, it's something I've thought about a time or two...
Depends on who you ask. At this point, I would say "no" - but I don't know that I'd say the same if you changed the question to, "Has Sherwood dropped the ball?"
They haven't. We have seen several original product designs that are built around distinctive innovations. The Bookshelf, the LCR, and the RR2150 all come quickly to mind. I think that the reason we've seen a change in the way they develop surround processors is because there has been an industry change in the last four years or so. Surround processors are much more complex, requiring much more development resources, and have possibly even fewer options for innovation.

Here's what I mean: the Model 950 had the latest processing options available at the time (Dolby EX, DTS-ES, Pro Logic II, and DTS NEO:6), component video switching (no transcoding), offered one of the first examples of multiple independently-adjustable bass management crossovers, and had a neat innovation in the way it handled the multichannel analog input (which was at that point included almost exclusively for DVD-Audio and SACD). Today, a surround processor is expected to have a full-blown video processor (transcoding analog sources to digital for HDMI output along with scaling, deinterlacing, and other processing capabilities) and the latest processing codecs (which means Dolby EX, DTS ES, Pro Logic II, and NEO:6 end up playing second fiddle to DSD, Pro Logic IIx, Dolby Digital Plus, Dolby TrueHD, DTS-HD, and now even Pro Logic IIz). That nifty multichannel analog input is hanging around just as a backup and will in most cases never be used because the sources that might be able to use such an input are now all equipped with HDMI - and most have analog sections that are not as good as the analog section in our processor, which reinforces the decision to take the easy way out and use HDMI. As a result, there's no point spending dollars on creating new innovations there or even retaining old ones. Bass management is supposed to have multiple independently-adjustable crossovers, but it is also supposed to be overshadowed by some form of room correction that automatically sets our crossovers, distances, channel trims, and applies all manner of EQ to every speaker in the room. Once you get all the expected features in place, you've built a device that is at least an order of magnitude more complex than the Model 950 - which makes it painfully difficult for anybody but the big boys to develop something new without taking a really long time to do, and all that development time just makes it harder for the final product to compete and be profitable enough to pay for the development time. It also leaves you with fewer opportunities to innovate. One of the appeals of the Model 997 - and likely a big reason that Outlaw pursued it, even if it isn't a home-grown design - is that it offers one of those rare opportunities in the form of Trinnov.

I had a debate recently with some folks about OPPO Digital, and the subject was whether OPPO should try developing a surround receiver. I was opposed to the idea, for the very same reasons that I see Outlaw being forced to get creative in how they bring similar products to market: it's a hugely complex animal now, and the resources necessary to get something to market in a timely manner are likely to be painfully costly. My personal hope is that we'll see a shift in a few years. If a couple of chip makers (maybe folks like Anchor Bay for video and TI or even Mediatek for audio) were to develop some powerful and affordable chipsets and some robust, well-supported core firmware that could be used as a practical foundation for receiver and processor development, we could have an opportunity for smaller manufacturers to more efficiently and rapidly develop (and subsequently support) new surround processor/receiver products. They could even look for ways to work in some creative innovations at that point. There's precedent for such things, if you look at the video card market about ten years ago when nVidia and ATI were duking it out and companies could use a GeForce reference board as a foundation for very rapid development of a video card. Until and unless something like that happens, though, I worry that affordable and innovative surround processors are going to stay hard to find (and hard to create) because of what they've evolved into. Maybe I'm being overly pessimistic, but I've felt this way for probably a couple of years now.

Lasher, I'm an even longer time member and I do understand your points.
Gonk, you put up a good defense. I'm involved in electronic products development/manufacturing and do understand that complex products take a long time to develop and also it's always the soft/firmware that causes deadlines to be missed.
However, Outlaw's delay on this product is inexcusably excessive. I say that because even though the delay is at SN, the problems are apparently so great that SOMEONE in SN could have predicted a long delay months ago and Outlaw should have been told that so they could tell us to not expect the product in 2009. Also, if S/N was not up front with them, Outlaw should have guessed that there was a serious problem and Outlaw should have told us to forget 2009...BUT, Outlaw did not do that and I fault them for it.

That seems reasonable. I just wonder if there has been any such prediction made within Sherwood. After all, the only reason we learned of the Model 997 a year ago was because Sherwood had told Outlaw to expect a product launch within a matter of months. At that point, Sherwood was acting as if the 972 would be in dealers' hands by the beginning of 2009. More recently, Sherwood was telling folks at CEDIA that they were pulling the trigger basically right then (early September) with inventory already in the states. At that point, there was hope that Outlaw was 60 days back and could have the 997 in the warehouse shortly after Halloween. Outlaw's reaction was to warn us that they weren't ready to make any such promise and not to get our hopes up prematurely. It's a hard thing for us to judge because we aren't fully in the loop - and as such, any attempt to lay blame runs the risk of hitting the wrong target...

In a message above Gonk wrote:
Actually (though I may be one of few) I use the 7.1 directs for several multi-channel analog formats including the analog of decoded dts CDs, redirecting to a 4-ch array, and multi-channel hard-drive material. So I hope Outlaw will continue the 7.1 analog in's.

While I'll not speculate or argue about whose analog section is better than whose, I will tell you fellow outlaws that not having a 997 (though I want one)is not a problem, since I am delighted with the audio from Oppo BDP83 analog outs into the 7.1 of my 990. Movies and SACD sound fabulous via analog.

I'm not saying it's better than thru HDMI (and I don't mind the cables). Yes, I'll get a 997. I'll hope that Trinnov is as good as it's purported to be (probably is). Though my primary use for a pre-pro is for music, I'm sure I'll enjoy the new codecs for movies. My XYL's use is mostly movies. Discriminating friends tell me the codecs are fantatic. OK. I'll bite. But I'll wait for the 997, since my 990 sounds great. Thanks outlaw.

Your use of these inputs is unique. Fortunately, I doubt we'll see anybody actually eliminate these inputs any time soon, as they provide a useful bit of flexibility.
The BDP-83 (and especially the BDP-83SE) is among the few players I have experience with that I consider to have an analog section that can match what is found in good surround processors. Others exist, but they tend to cost thousands of dollars.

Gonk wrote:
Hopefully the 7.1 direct will persist with OUTLAW.
I plan to stay with them, as my two independent OUTLAW systems work as well today as when I bought them.

...and yes, I realize my use is unique. I try to "squeeze" every ounce of utility from gear.

Here's a question for forum users: does anyone know of a way to receive email notifications without posting. So far that is the only way I'm aware of to get the box to check.

how do you get email notifications? that would be a nice perk.

Jimna
Nice pics and thanks for opening up your live recordings sessions to us all.

As far as Outlaw...I view the company as being upfront since I started looking into the Home Theater experience.
Also my encounters with Scott and PT at the Home Theater Shows strengthen my belief that Outlaw has good people in the driver seat.
I am disappointed with the outcome of the 997 as of this writing.
In a pass post which was months ago I stated that Outlaw let the cat out of the bag to soon about the 997.
Why reveal your hand when you are not near ready to play.
Although the time frame of the arrival of the 997 has been disappointing I am holing out and will continue to remain loyal to Outlaw.

Not with this forum software. I know that vBulletin forum software allows for it, but I don't know of any way to do it with the UBB software that runs the saloon.
You have to pick "Full Reply Form" when composing your post, and there are some options at the bottom of the page for email notification, showing your signature, and disabling smileys.