Has Outlaw dropped the ball completely this time around?

I'm sorry guys but I've been a long time member here and very quietly reading the latest Outlaw news while enjoying my old 950/7100 combo but I feel I must speak up.

Why has Outlaw completely gave up on making there own products!

When I took a chance and bought the 950 it was because these new guys the "Outlaws" were doing something no one else had the balls to do.

Build a product that was so amazing in Price/Performance that all the big boys/old timers in the game were left scrambling trying to come up with something to compete.

It made you feel as though you were part of an audio revolution.

Outlaw innovated and others copied there design.

After that amazing success though things seemed to slip.

We were promised at the time of the 950 release that Outlaw was working on a "Truly High End Piece" of there own design.

Alas it never came to be.

Instead all of us waiting for that unit were handed a reworked SN receiver in Pre/Pro form the 990.

Now granted the 990 was a nice sounding piece of gear (SN makes nice gear) but it was in no way an Outlaw product.

The innovation was gone.

Now I'm seeing "Outlaw" speakers that are not "Outlaw" speakers. "Outlaw" subs that are made by Velodyne.

Countless other products that there just selling here without so much as the rebadge.

Now because of this trend to use others products and imitate rather than innovate we the loyal Outlaw fans, have no new Pre/Pro at all.

They will however sell us a stop gap Onkyo receiver and say its to help us out!

I'm sure padding there bottom line didn't hurt either.

This may sound like a Rant but please take this as a Plea instead.

Dear Outlaws,

Please go back to making your own products. Ones that set the bar for others to follow.

If we wanted to buy renamed mass produced audio gear we would shop at Best Buy.

Lasher

Hey, Lasher - haven't seen you around in a bit. I know your post isn't meant as a rant, but I wanted to toss out some of my own thoughts on the matter. Believe me, it's something I've thought about a time or two...
Depends on who you ask. At this point, I would say "no" - but I don't know that I'd say the same if you changed the question to, "Has Sherwood dropped the ball?"
They haven't. We have seen several original product designs that are built around distinctive innovations. The Bookshelf, the LCR, and the RR2150 all come quickly to mind. I think that the reason we've seen a change in the way they develop surround processors is because there has been an industry change in the last four years or so. Surround processors are much more complex, requiring much more development resources, and have possibly even fewer options for innovation.

Here's what I mean: the Model 950 had the latest processing options available at the time (Dolby EX, DTS-ES, Pro Logic II, and DTS NEO:6), component video switching (no transcoding), offered one of the first examples of multiple independently-adjustable bass management crossovers, and had a neat innovation in the way it handled the multichannel analog input (which was at that point included almost exclusively for DVD-Audio and SACD). Today, a surround processor is expected to have a full-blown video processor (transcoding analog sources to digital for HDMI output along with scaling, deinterlacing, and other processing capabilities) and the latest processing codecs (which means Dolby EX, DTS ES, Pro Logic II, and NEO:6 end up playing second fiddle to DSD, Pro Logic IIx, Dolby Digital Plus, Dolby TrueHD, DTS-HD, and now even Pro Logic IIz). That nifty multichannel analog input is hanging around just as a backup and will in most cases never be used because the sources that might be able to use such an input are now all equipped with HDMI - and most have analog sections that are not as good as the analog section in our processor, which reinforces the decision to take the easy way out and use HDMI. As a result, there's no point spending dollars on creating new innovations there or even retaining old ones. Bass management is supposed to have multiple independently-adjustable crossovers, but it is also supposed to be overshadowed by some form of room correction that automatically sets our crossovers, distances, channel trims, and applies all manner of EQ to every speaker in the room. Once you get all the expected features in place, you've built a device that is at least an order of magnitude more complex than the Model 950 - which makes it painfully difficult for anybody but the big boys to develop something new without taking a really long time to do, and all that development time just makes it harder for the final product to compete and be profitable enough to pay for the development time. It also leaves you with fewer opportunities to innovate. One of the appeals of the Model 997 - and likely a big reason that Outlaw pursued it, even if it isn't a home-grown design - is that it offers one of those rare opportunities in the form of Trinnov.

I had a debate recently with some folks about OPPO Digital, and the subject was whether OPPO should try developing a surround receiver. I was opposed to the idea, for the very same reasons that I see Outlaw being forced to get creative in how they bring similar products to market: it's a hugely complex animal now, and the resources necessary to get something to market in a timely manner are likely to be painfully costly. My personal hope is that we'll see a shift in a few years. If a couple of chip makers (maybe folks like Anchor Bay for video and TI or even Mediatek for audio) were to develop some powerful and affordable chipsets and some robust, well-supported core firmware that could be used as a practical foundation for receiver and processor development, we could have an opportunity for smaller manufacturers to more efficiently and rapidly develop (and subsequently support) new surround processor/receiver products. They could even look for ways to work in some creative innovations at that point. There's precedent for such things, if you look at the video card market about ten years ago when nVidia and ATI were duking it out and companies could use a GeForce reference board as a foundation for very rapid development of a video card. Until and unless something like that happens, though, I worry that affordable and innovative surround processors are going to stay hard to find (and hard to create) because of what they've evolved into. Maybe I'm being overly pessimistic, but I've felt this way for probably a couple of years now.

Lasher, I'm an even longer time member and I do understand your points.
Gonk, you put up a good defense. I'm involved in electronic products development/manufacturing and do understand that complex products take a long time to develop and also it's always the soft/firmware that causes deadlines to be missed.
However, Outlaw's delay on this product is inexcusably excessive. I say that because even though the delay is at SN, the problems are apparently so great that SOMEONE in SN could have predicted a long delay months ago and Outlaw should have been told that so they could tell us to not expect the product in 2009. Also, if S/N was not up front with them, Outlaw should have guessed that there was a serious problem and Outlaw should have told us to forget 2009...BUT, Outlaw did not do that and I fault them for it.

That seems reasonable. I just wonder if there has been any such prediction made within Sherwood. After all, the only reason we learned of the Model 997 a year ago was because Sherwood had told Outlaw to expect a product launch within a matter of months. At that point, Sherwood was acting as if the 972 would be in dealers' hands by the beginning of 2009. More recently, Sherwood was telling folks at CEDIA that they were pulling the trigger basically right then (early September) with inventory already in the states. At that point, there was hope that Outlaw was 60 days back and could have the 997 in the warehouse shortly after Halloween. Outlaw's reaction was to warn us that they weren't ready to make any such promise and not to get our hopes up prematurely. It's a hard thing for us to judge because we aren't fully in the loop - and as such, any attempt to lay blame runs the risk of hitting the wrong target...

In a message above Gonk wrote:
Actually (though I may be one of few) I use the 7.1 directs for several multi-channel analog formats including the analog of decoded dts CDs, redirecting to a 4-ch array, and multi-channel hard-drive material. So I hope Outlaw will continue the 7.1 analog in's.

While I'll not speculate or argue about whose analog section is better than whose, I will tell you fellow outlaws that not having a 997 (though I want one)is not a problem, since I am delighted with the audio from Oppo BDP83 analog outs into the 7.1 of my 990. Movies and SACD sound fabulous via analog.

I'm not saying it's better than thru HDMI (and I don't mind the cables). Yes, I'll get a 997. I'll hope that Trinnov is as good as it's purported to be (probably is). Though my primary use for a pre-pro is for music, I'm sure I'll enjoy the new codecs for movies. My XYL's use is mostly movies. Discriminating friends tell me the codecs are fantatic. OK. I'll bite. But I'll wait for the 997, since my 990 sounds great. Thanks outlaw.

Your use of these inputs is unique. Fortunately, I doubt we'll see anybody actually eliminate these inputs any time soon, as they provide a useful bit of flexibility.
The BDP-83 (and especially the BDP-83SE) is among the few players I have experience with that I consider to have an analog section that can match what is found in good surround processors. Others exist, but they tend to cost thousands of dollars.

Gonk wrote:
Hopefully the 7.1 direct will persist with OUTLAW.
I plan to stay with them, as my two independent OUTLAW systems work as well today as when I bought them.

...and yes, I realize my use is unique. I try to "squeeze" every ounce of utility from gear.

Here's a question for forum users: does anyone know of a way to receive email notifications without posting. So far that is the only way I'm aware of to get the box to check.

how do you get email notifications? that would be a nice perk.

Jimna
Nice pics and thanks for opening up your live recordings sessions to us all.

As far as Outlaw...I view the company as being upfront since I started looking into the Home Theater experience.
Also my encounters with Scott and PT at the Home Theater Shows strengthen my belief that Outlaw has good people in the driver seat.
I am disappointed with the outcome of the 997 as of this writing.
In a pass post which was months ago I stated that Outlaw let the cat out of the bag to soon about the 997.
Why reveal your hand when you are not near ready to play.
Although the time frame of the arrival of the 997 has been disappointing I am holing out and will continue to remain loyal to Outlaw.

Not with this forum software. I know that vBulletin forum software allows for it, but I don't know of any way to do it with the UBB software that runs the saloon.
You have to pick "Full Reply Form" when composing your post, and there are some options at the bottom of the page for email notification, showing your signature, and disabling smileys.

I've followed the antics of SN, in general, and Jeff Hipps, in particular, for almost a year. In my opinion, his comments have been inaccurate and misleading in terms of when the product would ship. One could shift the "blame" all over the place, but I find it hard to believe that SN/Hipps was being straight with people. If he/they didn't know the true nature of the delays, they *should* have.

As far as Outlaw is concerned, they're in a pickle. What do you do when your supplier isn't straight with you or the market about the timeline for delivery of a critical product? Whether that misinformation is the result of intentional misdirection or incompetence really doesn't matter. At the end of the day, your brand suffers and it costs you money.

This is something that has bugged me, as well. The information that has gone out from Sherwood to the general public has been ruthlessly ridiculed at AVS, and it is hard to fault people much for that when the information has been wrong so many times. We've talked about it some on the saloon over the last year or so, but the R-972 has been public knowledge for about 35 months now and has seen over two years of delays. Even if the final product is excellent, that's going to haunt the 972. The longer the situation is drawn out, the worse it will be.

Why have there been all of those delays? Was there separate (accurate) schedule information going to business partners at the same time publicly-disclosed schedules were broken? That would mean the public information was a deception, which would be a very bad thing and profoundly stupid - lying about deadlines you know are false is a good way to alienate customers and anger dealers. It would also make me very uncomfortable if I were one of those business partners, both because of the deception and because of the potential damage it could cause in the marketplace. I have a hard time believing that Sherwood could be crazy enough to do that on even a small scale, much less one that spanned years. The alternative, though, is that the same information (presumably more detailed but still from the same master schedule) was also going to business partners, all of it based on a sincere belief by Sherwood that it was accurate. That at least is not malicious, and it lacks the insane subterfuge, but it means that Sherwood had some problems with their development process' schedule - problems that have persisted and apparently not been sufficiently accounted for within Sherwood. It also means their business partners (such as Outlaw) must make long-reaching and expensive business decisions based on well-intentioned but flawed data. That would have to classify as the stuff of business nightmares.
Excellent point.

I would argue that to some small extent we are all business partners with SN and Outlaw. Most of us own Outlaw gear which is still under an excellent 5 year warranty which could be put in jeopardy by the deceptive practices of SN towards the very people they want to convince to buy their creations. I can tell you that I jumped to the Onkyo even though I have heard about service issues and the warranty is way shorter partly because I don't know if either of the two main partners will make it through these tough times and I got tired of justifying the wait. Even with the loyalty discount I saved $100 over the 997 and got a proven piece of gear.

Apparently Noah over at avsforums has jumped ship and returned his 972 and went with a Denon.

I'm still hanging in there as it's really not necessary for me to upgrade, even though I have the urge.

From what I have read over there, Noah went through quite a tussle trying to get the firmware updates out of SN only to find they didn't fix the issues. I think what OPPO did with the BDP-83 EAP is the best way to test the gear out while keeping everyone in the loop as to its progress. From what Gonk reported, I got the impression that the BDP-83 was pretty close when the EAP started and all they had to do was fine tune it. I don't get that same warm fuzzy about the 972. Of course there are only a few out there and most of those aren't posting about it.

Boy, if Noah gave up on the 972, things must be very, very bad.

He had really been trying to get his 972 to work, put in a lot of effort, and it seemed like he remained very loyal to SN though the process, despite the plethora of vocal detractors.

This can't be good news for Sherwood Newcastle, at all. It's going to be a hard sell to audiophiles at this point. It would be hard to imagine a worse way to market a "new" two to three year old product.

I really hope that the Outlaw version can overcome this setback, but the way the two companies are involved will probably end up tainting their efforts from a lot of consumer's viewpoints. They will have their work cut out for them.

Scott

I'm sure this has been said elsewhere, but I don't believe the debacle of the 997 delays lays in Outlaw's court. I also believe it would be in bad form for them to come out and talk about the failures SN has had in delivering a reliable product in a timely manner.

This is obviously affecting both companies bottom line and is a bit embarrassing, but it wouldn't make business sense to point fingers and burn bridges. It's really unfortunate for both companies and I think it was smart for outlaw to offer competitor products to appease potential purchases waiting for a release.

I can only imagine how much this affects Outlaw Audio on so many levels. I hope things turn around for them so they can continue selling awesome products.

Well said, Retep...

FWIW, my sympathies go out to Peter and Co. on this one. While they've been waiting for the 997 to get through development, Audyssey and THX have released new iterations of their processing techs with additional multichannel capabilities, which makes the Trinnov a slightly less compelling selling point. I'm pretty sure several heated long distance calls have been placed between Outlaw Central and various hardware developers.

Trinnov's implementation issues are making the decision to go with a product that's equipped with Audyssey much more compelling. I really want to see Outlaw be successful with the 997, but Sherwood isn't doing them any favors at this point.

If the chip manufacturers hadn't been so far behind when the 997 originally went to design I bet Outlaw wouldn't have looked for other sources and we'd all be happily listening to 997's equipped with Audyssey right now.

Well, as dsps/processors get faster and cheaper, I think it's only a matter of time before serious digital room correction (think Tact Audio, not Audessey) trickles down to more affordable products. Now that the hardware grunt has reached "commodity" pricing, it's all a matter of sorting out the software.

Barring fire sale prices, I think a lot of informed people are going to avoid this current generation processor from SN. Maybe they'll get it right on the next pass...or maybe not. The 990 was decent product based on their designs....time will tell.

Bingo!

I talked to a certain Outlaw at the October 2007 Rocky Mt Audio Fest and inquired if they were working on a HDMI prepro. He confirmed this, and estimated a possible summer 2008 release date. This was only a confirmation that Outlaw was working on a new gen prepro at the time, and certainly nothing official. At some point, Outlaw apparently realized that the ongoing delays with the chip manufacturer at that time were unacceptable, and changed platforms. Little did they know that they went from the frying pan into the fire with the SN implimentation of Trinnov, in terms of the projected release date. It's really a shame that SN let a handful of 972s out without a final debugging.

Gotta agree with that...

Hi Guys,
I'm one of the guys that jumped ship and bought a Denon 4810,Emotiva XPA-1,XPA-2and XPA-5 and I am very happy.
My original intent was to purchase a 997 and all Outlaw amps (was thinking of a stack of 2200's or maybe 2 7500's!).

Gonk personally answered many of my questions and I am very grateful to him for his help.

Even though I went in a different direction and other factors were involved (Emotiva is on the "other side of town" from me), I truly believe that Outlaw Audio is a very respectable company. I hope that this 997 debacle, that I do not believe was their fault, will not hurt the company too much. They still have very fine products and I am sure they will come out with a replacement processor soon.
Thanks Guys For All Of Your Help.

Blessings,Brian

I purchased my first Outlaw Audio component (amp) about two years ago, and followed that with a 970 processor to hold me over until the 997 was ready for shipping. I had stumbled across a review of one of Outlaw's processors, and then further investigated Outlaw's products and customer support and was hooked.

Here it is over 1 1/2 years later and still no 997!

However, during this time frame I have seen a well-respected company falter; albeit not 100% their fault with respect to the 997, but, nonetheless, Outlaw must take their fair of the blame.

Although this may not be Outlaw's intent, but, as it appears to me, Outlaw looks like it is becoming merely a private-labeled re-packager of other company's products or a mini-amazon (offering other companies' products online) and not an innovative forward-thinking company and designer of their own products. It seems like almost every recent message from Outlaw is for the promotion of another company's goods.

As for the 997 debacle, if Outlaw hasn't done so already, then they really need to find a new partnership for the design and manufacturer of their processors. Perhaps Outlaw has already done this and the offering of the Onkyo is the prelude to a forth-coming announcement of the two companies' partnership. Outlaw could also be more forthcoming with their position of readiness with the 997; that is, once the contractually required delay period has passed with the R-972, will the 997 be immediately available for shipment or, will it be delayed for many months while Outlaw "continues to work out any bugs?"

And while they are looking for a new partner, why not look for an American company, located here, in the United States? I know I wouldn't mind paying a modest premium for a "Made in U.S.A." product.

I do hope Outlaw takes this reply constructively and as an insight into what some of their customer may be thinking.

It is not too late, but, you really need to stop peddling other companies' products; lest you want to lose more respect of your current and potential customers. Outlaw Audio should be a designer/seller of products, not an online retail outlet of products like bestbuy.com, walmart.com or target.com, etc.

Very well put. I agree and don't put any blame on Outlaw. I don't really need to upgrade my pre\pro and am very happy with my Outlaw amps.


I sit patiently waiting

I just hope they are making some decent coin on the Onkyo to tide them over.

For those of you not following the Sherwood R-972 thread on the AVS forum, there's an interesting development. Kal Rubinson of Stereophile has received a review unit and will be hooking it up this weekend. He said that his understanding was that he wouldn't get a sample until SN was comfortable with the firmware.

His evaluation should be interesting. If I recall, he's been please with what Audyssey, so a comparison with the Trinnov should be instructive.

It could also be damaging to both the 972 and the 997 if there are significant flaws. If not, we may be close to seeing the release of the 997.

Scott

That is interesting. It may be a while before we hear Kal's findings, though: if he writes a review, he will keep pretty quiet until after the review goes to press - which will be months from now. That's how the BDP-83 went, and if I remember correctly he's got similar findings under wraps until February or so for the BDP-83SE.

If the 997 is released soon, near in capabilities to the concept put forward years ago within Outlaw, and even if some people are ready for an upgrade, I think most will find themselves at a tipping point: Do I want a Trinnov-capable platform that perhaps has not otherwise advanced in two years, or does the perceived need for capabilities in directions the industry may be going, like PLIIz, push me beyond a 997 ‘aged before it releases’ platform toward something else? In Outlaw’s favor, a Trinnov system may do something great for some customers, and, since many studios have rarely produced content beyond 5.1 anyway, 9.1 (or a 7.1 that is 5.1 plus height) may be as nearly invisible as 7.1 has been in most consumer content distribution. The majority of content may be years and years away from genuinely moving beyond 5.1 with any gusto – then again it might be soon. In sales, what buyers expect to see doesn’t have to have a firm connection to reality. I did not miss the THX logo on my Outlaw gear, but many are influenced by such things. Consumer attention is almost entirely one of perception and anticipation, so the purchase will swing more on what is ‘believed’ than what will actually become reality. If PLIIz gets enough buzz, the 997 as originally conceived will arrive appearing, with regard to sales/marketing, behind the times even if it is spot-on because the latest touted ‘next thing’ ends up as ‘vaporware’. In Saloon fashion, purchasers who don’t have the patience to see how things settle out will be indirectly responding to: “place your bets.”

If the 997 has an even more significant delay, perhaps it’s time to scrap some of the circuitry that won’t be up to consumer-perceived ‘next gen capabilities’ in favor of including capabilities other brands have brought to market during the last two years plus a Trinnov system in the same platform. If I were Outlaw and ever dealt with the same external team members involved in *cough* bringing the 997 to market, I’d want a stepped ‘money back’ time-sensitive performance clause added to any contracts.

A while after previous Outlaw processors came to market, the prices of those processors dropped in order to maintain the ‘value’ of a platform that is not updated annually, which makes sense to me. If the 997 capabilities are not revised to meet advances in market expectation, will the price of the 997 need to drop in a ‘value timeline’ fashion, as if it had been widely introduced for sale within the initially planned release dates? If so, buyers may actually be beyond the point where the usual first $100 price drop happens (whether a price drop actually occurs or not) before the first widely available unit ships.

As expressed by others, I’m also cheering for Outlaw. Hopefully they’ll get through this processor upgrade round somewhere near to breaking even, resuming normal profits on whatever the next Outlaw processor will be.

I to have been waiting patiently for Outlaw to come thru with the 997. The idea of Trinnov-capability interests me but not to the extent that I have read on this forum from other Outlaws.
I have the 990/7700 combo and I am very pleased with the sound calibration after using a digital spl from radio shack.
My Fathoms have there own calibration system and they work well with the 990.

For me to step-up to the 997 I am hoping for something more dynamic even more than XM/Sirius radio since you have to pay a monthly fee. That feature to me is not a big deal especially since I have recently purchase a iPhone and downloading all of my music and listening to it thru my Home Theater system. With the capability of numerous apps the iphone for me at home listening is more to my liking.

Better processing than the 990 capable of contending with the likes of MacIntosh,Classe' that to me is more important.

Sherwood jumped in way over their heads on this deal. Somebody, some where got sold a Bill of Goods on the capabilities of their employee's.Sherwood has never had the People in place to do this kind of implementation. The logistics and correlation of different Manufacture's parts and the intergration of those parts, if it hasn't already is on the brink of turning them into Alchoholic's. I think They have had to go outside for help on this project. if they haven't already. They should have Bit the bullet long ago and said We don't know WTF we are doing, and got outside assistance. Hell, half of our industry is trying to pull this OFF on the Fly.
So Don't Blame Outlaw.

Rubbersoul,
If you don't mind my asking, how do you like the iphone's sound quality over your system compared to regular cd? Assuming you're streaming wireless with chordette/bluetooth?
Thanks,
grog

Here is why I "blame" Outlaw, actually I don't blame them but I do hold them responsible for everything they sell .... go to the home page and read the "about" section. In that section you will find these quotes:

**We are designers and engineers. First we spec and design our products, and then we locate the best possible venue for their manufacture.

**Since the design and manufacture of the products that Outlaw sells is under our direct control, we are more familiar than anyone else with how these products work.

**Together, we have been involved in the design and manufacturing of over 150 different audio and video products.

**We all wanted to design and manufacture products without corporate interference, and deliver them directly to the consumer.

**Our high performance products are available to you exclusively on the Internet.

**While there are other Internet retailers that sell consumer electronics products, most of them are merely reselling the same merchandise that is commonly available through traditional sales channels.


It seems there is minimal design or specifying going on with some of these newest products. Offerings from Onkyo, Cue, Velodyne, Qsonix, Vudu, Grado, Atlantic Technology and Terra sure seem like products sold by typical online retailers and less like exclusive designing. The 970 and 1070, both of which seem to be highly designed by Outlaw, are now discontinued and should be moved down to the correct section.
I hope the 997 gets released soon and is a success but I would also like to see Outlaw return to it's roots and start offering truly innovative designs. Stop badge engineering someone else's design. Remember how unique the ICBM was? How about the analog bass management on the 950? Think more along those innovative lines and less about another version of the LFM.

Keta,

Thanks for your post. You raised some interesting philosophical issues. As we speak I am on my way to CES for a whole host of meetings for involving Outlaw, Atlantic and a few other companies.

In actuality, due to the way we market and the known level of quality of our customer base (Yes other companies visit the Saloon to see what we are doing and what our customers want) we have been approached by others to market specific products that they believe are ideal for Outlaw. Many companies wanted a targeted marketing approach.

Some examples:

Terra: They named us the only authorized Internet retailer of their outdoor speakers

Vudu: They approached us and put together a unique (at the time) bundle of free movies for outlaw customers.

Cue: Listened to our ideas on making a special version of their radio with improvements to listening modes. (They are now requesting that they be allowed to incorporate the ideas in the Outlaw version in their own model by late spring)

Oppo: We are very close with these people. They (among other things, have given us an education on Anchor Bay video processing.) As a result of this relationship, we are one of only three companies outside of themselves that is invited to offer the limited edition of the BDP-83 Blu Ray player.

Onkyo: Well that one was our idea because we knew that the 997 would be quite late due to glitches and other issues at Inkel (that our completely out of our control.) Many customers who could not wait have taken advantage of our acquiring the 886’s and we have now virtually tied up the market on the remaining new units with all the latest software.

.

In this world of rapidly changing technologies there are few companies that can totally develop a platform on their own. It costs well over one million per platform, if you include the software development and approvals. Furthermore, by the time one delivers, the technology has moved on again (HDMI 1.4 anyone?).

So Outlaw as with a few other online companies has technology and marketing partners. While we would like to have everything with our brand name it is virtually impossible unless you remain fairly narrow in a rapidly changing product environment.

So this week, we and other Outlaws are exploring opportunities for our customers and yes some of them will be unique to Outlaw. (Without talking out of school since it has already been written about in the audio press H-PAS speaker technology is in our future.) Work continues on the 997 (Suffice it to say, we will not release it until it is totally vetted) and there are real good surprises coming that no one sees coming as of today.

Will we continue to offer special products from our colleagues? Yes, but where possible, we will put a special Outlaw touch on them.
That is it I am on an early morning plane. Happy New Year everyone and thanks again Keta for raising the issue

Thanks for the very interesting post, Peter. Have a good week at CES.

I wonder if the "surprises" are part of the 997 platform or some other equipment offerings?

I am leaving Wednesday for CES myself. I am sure there will be many manufactures that have New Stuff on the way. The problem with most of this, is that the Industry has not established a working Platform that all can adhere to. You can spend Millions in development, just to have everything changed in Mid Stream. The Ultra Expensive Product manufactures are really feeling the Pinch. It's going to be a tuff two-three years getting everybodies stuff to work together. (Correctly)Our Industry is a very difficult Buisness right now.

With resources being limited across the high end industry, I wonder why everyone is striving to produce a do-everything pre-pro.
The idea of a component system is to be able to marry "best of breed", specific purpose modules togeather to produce the desired result without a lot of duplication and replace them individually without scrapping the whole works.
It would be difficult to put togeather a system today that didn't have video processing capabilities in at least 3 of the components ( source, pre-pro and TV).The same is becomming true of audio processing as players like the Oppo BDP-83SE do a bang-up job with D/A conversion in all formats.
The inclusion of redundant capabilities merly makes each device more complicated , expensive to purchases , and difficult to intergrate.
I will conceed that the attraction of single-wire HDMI hook-up is a selling point, but I for one don't see it as all that necessary.
As near as I can tell, the only thing that the 997 will do that an OPPO BDP mated with a 990 won't is equalization.
I'd love to see a stand alone full capability equalizer ( kind of a full range SMS) offered
. This would make more sense to me than a full capability pre-pro that's continually on the verge of obsolesence.

Good question. I bet "other" is more likely, just because of the delays that the R-972 has suffered through.
Definitely seems true. The construction industry has its own challenges, but nothing quite as dramatic as the consumer electronics industry.
Consumer expectations, probably worsened by some weaknesses in consumer education. Too many people shop by feature list, and deviating radically from the traditional feature lists is a risky gamble. Look at reviews for the BDP-83 and see how many comment on the lack of Netflix or other streaming support - all of which relate to the absence of heavily-compressed feeds from the feature set of an HD video disc player. For surround processors, it's likely compounded by economic factors. For example, a standalone room correction unit would need to have good enough ADC/DAC hardware to be sonically transparent, and it would need to be paired with separates - it couldn't be used with a standard receiver. That makes for a limited market, and one that will be more demanding of that ADC/DAC hardware. Plus it would need the same sort of processing resources that a surround receiver or processor needs, so you are buying a pretty substantial DSP chip twice. You also may need to provide a video output so you have a convenient setup OSD. And don't forget a remote so you can set it up from the couch and make setup changes on the fly. All of a sudden, you've duplicated 80% or more of the hardware you'd need for a surround processor.

What about separating audio and video processing? It's a good idea, and if the industry had gone with IEEE-1394 (FireWire) for audio and DVI for video it would have been fairly practical. With HDMI, though, the two signal paths are trapped inside a single cable. That makes it more complex to separate the two. It can be done, but you basically have to run everything through the audio processor and then pass video on to a separate video processor. Not easy to do - it ends up being cheaper to do it all in a single chassis. In some ways, you could argue that HDMI is a big reason for surround processors starting to do everything. Another reason to be frustrated with HDMI...

There are instances where "do-everything" can be reasonably scaled back. I would rather see a media client/server stay separate from a surround processor, for example. Sure, the hardware may be robust enough that it's capable of acting as a media client for a server of some sort (DLNA perhaps) or even streaming services like Netflix, Hulu, or YouTube. That doesn't mean it's a good idea, though.

Why can't someone build a simple device which splits HDMI out to DVI and analog. Does it have something to do with HDCP?

It could be done, but not easily.

All the data in HDMI (audio and video) is digitally encoded. The audio data is interleaved with the video and control data (packets) and sent to the receiving device. The clock signal sent over HDMI allows the receiver to sync up with the data bits BUT this clock CAN'T be used to play the audio. The HDMI receiver uses a process called Audio Clock Regeneration to retrive the audio clock from the HDMI clock.

There's chips availalbe to do all this.

Problem is, after you convert the HDMI video signal, what do you do with the audio? convert it to optical or SPDIF? that's taking a potentially 7.1 signal and reducing it to 5.1. Not a big deal for most of us that haven't seen a lot of benifit from 7.1,but there's always the the exception, and those buying from feature lists are a large part of that excepion.
I would agree that there's probly a place in the market for such a product, but it probably isn't very large.

Kind of have to go to analog...

Basically, this device becomes a hybrid of an HDMI switch and a multichannel DAC with some audio switching capability upstream of the DAC, and unless you want to turn it into a full-blown surround processor you need all sources to do internal decoding so they always output PCM. Do you then also add bass management? Tough call. There is a market for it, although the presence of a universal disc player like the BDP-83 probably shrinks it severely - after all, the only formats with audio that can't fall back on coaxial and optical digital connections are DVD-Audio, SACD, Blu-ray, and HD-DVD. Of those, two are niche-market products, one it dead in the marketplace after having been utterly abandoned by its supporters, and one is steadily growing. By purchasing a single player that can do DVD-A, SACD, and BD, you can then hook it to your single multichannel analog input and fall back on coaxial or optical for every other source you have. Having an option like that probably makes it harder to sell an "HDMI to DVI/analog" box unless it could be built for just a couple hundred bucks. Considering the small market (and thus the small volume), I doubt that's a practical price point.

An Outlaw sub equalization product to rival SVS as-eq1?

As long as this has turned into a what if and why thread, I have a question regarding prices of equipment. Back in the late 90's I bought a Sony ES receiver for about $350. It worked well, but was limited to Dolby Pro Logic. It was at that point I discovered Outlaw Audio and the Model 1050. At the time, the $600 price tag was a little tough to swallow, but I took a chance and how sweet it was (still is actually) when I got it all set up. Next came the LFM-1. Again, a little more than what I really wanted to spend, but I knew I'd be getting a great piece of equipment and Outlaw did not disappoint.

The caboose on my long winded train of thought is, will Outlaw offer any more mid-range priced equipment? I was really interested in the 1070 when it came out, but at a price of over $1000, I couldn't swing it. The thought of separates are intriguing and the amps seem to be a good value, but the Pre/Pro's started out around $1000 (if memory serves). I see I can get a 2 year old 970, but it still costs $700. (Not to mention the $1450 Onkyo)

I hope I'm not coming off as whiny (apologies if I am), but I just wonder if that price point is something that can still be hit by the Outlaws. I'm still a huge supporter of Outlaw products and have recommended them often. Most recently my boss built a home theater and I talked him into spending a little more than he planned and getting the LFM-1 EX and he has been blown away. However, he ended up spending $650 on an all-in-one receiver by someone else because Outlaw didn't have anything in that price range.

I understand that the business moves rapidly and is very competitive and if the answer is that Outlaw just can't compete at that price point, then my question is answered. It's just something that's been on my mind lately and I thought I'd ask. (Ulterior motive is that the 1050 is going to need to be replaced sometime )

Todd

I have been wondering for sometime now if there will be a replacement for the 970/1070 platform - both were good values at the time (especially when they were on sale). Currently I use a reciever as a pre/pro and it works well, however, I would have preferred an actual pre/pro similar to the 970 but with some more modern features (and fewer quirks). While my gear works, I also hold out to see what Outlaw will be offering in terms of a new reciever and for some odd reason a new pre/pro. I just can't see the long awaited 997 being on the market for very long - way too many problems and it has not even been released.

I thought the Model 1070 was $900, and the Model 970 started out at $700 but was down to $550 when they sold out. The 990 sells now for $700 (a big drop from the original $1100 price).

All that said, I do see your point. I think there is an opportunity for a product in the 970's niche. A sub-$600 receiver in today's market is probably not going to appeal to Outlaw: that area belongs to folks like Onkyo, and unlike ten years ago it is now a difficult market segment to innovate in or otherwise differentiate yourself. A $600 or $700 surround processor, though, is a market with less competition and probably more opportunity to succeed. We've also got to consider inflation - the $600 that the 1050 cost when it debuted nine or ten years ago would no longer be $600 today, between inflation and significant changes to cost of steel and copper.

Well I am suppose to leave for the CES show on Thursday with a friend of mine but since he has pneumonia since last Friday I am up in air as to whether we will be going.
We have until Wednesday noon to make a final decision.

More fluids, more fluids.

Thanks for your response Gonk. I may have been mistaken regarding some pricing, but it's that $500-$700 price range that's at my top end. Here's hoping Outlaw can land in that price range in the future or maybe team up with Onkyo on a receiver in that area.

Hope everyone had a good holiday!

It would be fun to see - I've got a co-worker who I've been slowly help build a home theater, and a budget Outlaw processor combined with a 7075 would be a killer setup for him. He just bought my dad's old '68 Mustang fastback and is working on getting it back on the road, though, so further upgrades are probably a ways down the road for him.

Just buy Emotiva's UMC-1. Yeah. I said it.

I saw that they shipped the first few pre-orders late this week. Still waiting to see the manual posted online - not clear on why they decided to omit source buttons on the remote, as that would seen to be a rather major inconvenience.

If you're not in the pre-order list, though, it may be a couple months before you can get one anyway.

Isn’t it a pain waiting for something you are really interested in or want? I'm still using an older Sony receiver (preamp outs to external power amps) as a controller/processor for movie sound. It is functioning properly, so I do not feel a great urge to buy something really-really-soon. If the Sony broke (and I couldn't fix it), that would be a different story.

I'm AM interested in someday upgrading to a current controller/processor but my exquisite taste (wink-wink) is not matched by my budget. No Anthem gear for me. The price to performance ratio of Outlaw gear is great. I'm (semi) content to let Outlaw work the bugs out of the 997 before I buy one. As an EE, I know that something as complex as the 997 will take a lot of time to get to production status, and even then there may still be an issue or two (that hopefully a firmware update will fix).

Anyway, release the 997 when it is ready, not before.

The UMC-1 had it's fair share of delays as well.
Some bugs still appear to be evident, but they claim they should be simple firmware updates. Also mentioned in their webcast was that anyone getting on the preorder list now, could expect delivery possibly in April.

Also, for 5 times the price of the UMC, you can get the Sherbourne PT-7020. With the exception of one RU extra in height, different front panels, and the balanced outputs on the back panel, these 2 units appear to be identical.

Sherwood has recently been providing R972 units with the latest firmware to various magazines for formal review. Kal Rubinson ("Music in the Round" Contributing Editor, Stereophile Magazine) has stated that his review will appear in the May 2010 issue.

I wonder if there will ever be a Model 997?

At first glance, the UMC1 was tempting, if used in conjunction with the 990 it could be the best of all possible worlds for the price of an SMS-1 , right ? WRONG!
From all accounts the EMO equalization doesn't amount to much.
The video processing is inferior to what you would get straight from an Oppo BD-83.
There are a lot of inputs, it will process most formats ( less DSD) and it will process everything to HDMI. If that's all that you want, $699.00 is a sweet deal. Go for it.
This ain't no 997, or at least what I anticipate the 997 being.

I've been wondering the same thing. I certainly hope so.

Possibly a 997 with HDMI 1.4 would be great!

Like many other Outlaw enthusiasts, I was patiently waiting for the 997, but the wait caused me to really think about my needs.

Upon reflection, I realized that my main requirement was HDMI video and audio switching, to get away from the spaghetti at the back of my system and to enable all sources to be routed through the processor. This way my TV would show all control feedback, something that I lacked with my previous 950-based system.
I also realized that the Trinnov system, which initially was very appealing to me, was not likely going to make any dramatic differences in my sound, because my room is pretty much balanced already, requiring only minor tweaks to balance it out.

I am still a supported of Outlaw ... my LFM1 Plus subwoofer performs superbly and the 7100 power amp continues to deliver solid power for my needs, but given my re-think on my requirements I decided to go with one of the new Integra processors (DHC 40.1), which met my needs and performs well.

It will be interesting to see the reviews of the 970 when it finally comes out, I hope that it lives up to the high expectation of the Outlaw faithful.

Pete

I'm kind of on the fence at this point about a new processor. I have an 83SE, and I'd prefer to use analog inputs over HDMI since I made the 'investment' into the SE over the standard 83. My room isn't the greatest, and I'm sure I'd benefit from some kind of room correction (I liked Audyssey when I had it on an Onkyo receiver, and it did make a difference with movies). I still want 2 channel audio performance though, so I'm leaning toward something that 'lets the sound alone' for 2 channel performance and can offer room correction/processing for multichannel audio and movies. I too was waiting for the 997, but I'm not sure it's going to make it to market anytime soon, and even then the Trinnov implementation seems to be fraught with issues on Sherwood's 972. I'm believing Outlaw won't release the 997 before the bugs are worked out, but without it's own product to compete in this segment, it has to be really hurting their brand and bottom line, so the pressure for a release ASAP has to be there.

I guess if I want to get off the fence, from everything I've read the Onkyo 886 will do what I want.

I think most people reading this thread have been patiently waiting for the 997. I'm on that list. It seems like most of the issues with the 972 have been worked out, though it does seem like there is something going on with the "green screen" as a result of the HDMI handshake. Sherwood Newcastle already has units out with reviewers, so the unit has to be running pretty well for them to take that risk. So the question is, where is the 997? It has been some time since we had any kind of update. We all know that Outlaw said it would take longer than the original "60 day" number that had been thrown around, but I would think that by now, Outlaw would have some level of increased certainty of when they may actually release this thing. I had set aside some cash for the release of the 997, but I've begun to find other uses for my money since I have no idea when this thing will actually be released.

I agree it's time for some update. Just having another status update from Scott or Peter would be helpful.

I don't have a UMC-1, but don't think your summary is very accurate. All the reports of the video processing have been quite good. Whether it's better or worse than the Oppo I can't say, but the Oppo is very good. Many people would say there's no need to perform any processing from an excellent source like the Oppo.

I do agree that the Emo-Q auto calibration program doesn't sound ready for prime time yet. Emo needs to work on that, toss auto setup altogether, or license Audyssey or something similar (this option gets my vote).

After the firmware update, all the reports I have seen have been pretty positive (except for the Emo-Q issues). Notably and most importantly, reports of sound quality (and video quality) have been excellent.

My summary would be if auto-calibration is critical to you look elsewhere (at least for now), but otherwise the UMC-1 appears to offer lots of bang (and good SQ) for your buck.

Perhaps the 997 will be better, but it's really impossible to compare the two since the 997 doesn't exist yet.

No argument.
But wat does this processor get you ?
You could use it with a less expensive blu-ray player and still get fair performance.
I think thatat's critical, this is a processor that will give you fair performance.

I agree with you Jimmy about the UMC-1. I have had mine for a few weeks now and I am very pleased with the video performance but the main thing I got it for was hdmi capability. Movies in bluray look and sound great and the analog performance is good too.

I am using 2 channel stereo outs on my Oppo 83 and they sound very good with the UMC-1 for 2 channel music. SACD and DVD Audio sound fantastic also. I am on the original wait list for the Outlaw 997 but I thought I would try the UMC-1 for now.

Gosh, not trying to be argumentative either, but it's a pre-pro. It gets you pretty much what any other current pre-pro gets you.

Whether it's performance is "poor", "fair", "very good", or "excellent" is so subjective without doing some testing and head-to-head comparisons with other pre-pro's. I don't know of anyone who has done that yet, but I haven't heard anyone who owns one describe it's video or audio performance as only "fair" including those who have Oppo blu-ray players and are using the UMC-1's video processing.

Not trying to say it's the best piece of AV gear ever made. It just seems premature to say it only offers "fair performance" without doing some comparisons or testing.

MD,

Glad to hear the UMC is working well for you. I hope Outlaw can get the 997 to market soon. Competition is good for the consumer and will make each company's products better.

P.S. - Before someone says the 997 & UMC-1 are not competing products because of the price difference, case in point here: MDAnderson who was going to buy a 997 but purchased a UMC-1 instead, but sounds like he will still consider the 997 when it's released. The very definition of competing products.

P.S. #2 - Sorry to get the topic off track from the 997 to the UMC-1. This is Outlaw's forum/home, and I respect that. Just trying to correct what I perceived as partially inaccurate information regarding the UMC-1. Here's to hoping for more information on the 997. Like Outlaw, Emotiva also had lengthy news blackouts prior to the UMC-1's release, and it was very frustrating to their customers. Seems like strange behavior for an ID company.

I'm pretty sure SN brought a 972 to CEDIA in 2007. Here we are in 2010. Wow. Clearly monkeys are heading the engineering departments or today's processors are so complex proper implementation requires a big budget engineering department. My guess, and this should be obvious, is that neither SN nor Outlaw have such a staff. So they are dependent on some Asian labs. China? Korea? I don't know. What seems apparent, is that it has been too much for whomever has been handling for them so far. I can't help but picture one or two underpaid Chinese guys working out of a back room of their flat in Shanghai.

I don't know if there is an answer. Does this spell the end of independent high-end processing from smaller companies? Maybe.

Like someone noted above, Integra is looking pretty good right about now. If rather than waiting for a Trinnov solution I had simply started building room treatments, by now I would be set and wouldn't worry too much about room correction! At this rate Emotiva may have a competing, and possibly compelling, new product released before the 997.

I like rooting for the underdog, however, so believe me when I say I'm still rooting for Outlaw (or I wouldn't even be here), but next time they should consider spending the money on a team of qualified engineers and actually get a product to market before their customers, competition, and technology move on...