I have been waiting months for the 972 to ship so we can start the 60 day countdown to the 997.

In talking with Sherwood today, they claim volume shipments to dealers starting ib two weeks.

I have not said anything or bugged anyone, but am ready to pull the trigger on a 997 and leave Denon ASAP.

Can anyone inside of Outlaw give us the final ship date where the 60 day countdown to the 997 starts?

See Scott's post from earlier today (the second post in this thread). The 60 days will start from probably somewhere around that two week mark, but Outlaw won't promise an exact 60-day release.

I'm sure we'll never know what happened, but I would sure love to hear the story when its all over. I still can't figure out how we went from the optimism in Outlaw's initial announcement of the 997 that it would be released by early 2009, to a late 2009 release at best. What changed? It sounds like there have been some issues with the Reon chip implementation, but Outlaw's most recent update (8/25/09) make it sound like there are some major issues with the quality of production. The discussion of making sure Outlaw's changes have been "properly implemented" are interesting to me. Especially since they had "pilot production samples" in June.

I seriously wonder about the future of Outlaw's relationship with Sherwood.

Sherwood press release announcing 'official' introduction of the 972:

http://www.noydcom.com/press_release/sherwood/trinnov/

You have to wonder if SN held off in order release during the CEDIA 2009. Big Splash, with all the media present.
http://www.cedia.net/expo/index2009.php

Certainly would make sense, after all, that's good advertising as well as good timing. Also makes sense to me with the announcement from Scott yesterday, no doubt knowing full well the R-972 was about to have an official release announcement.

So now with the '60 day' clock starting, we can be sure the 997 will not be available before Nov 10th. I'm kidding, but it seems like a bit of light at the end of the tunnel. I'm in 100% support of Outlaw waiting until they're fully ready for it to be shipped out.

I've waited this long, a handful more months I can deal with.

Encouraging news. In the past, has Outlaw offered combo deals on new releases? Is there any possible incentive for me to hold off on my purchase of a 7700 for a couple of months?

Combo deals are pretty standard policy, and they have been available right out of the gate in the past. I wouldn't think the 997 would be any different.

This could make one of the best who-done-it movies of all time!

Colonel Mustard, in the Libray, with the Candelabra.

SN sales director in the basement with the crack pipe.

Hopefully, Outlaw will learn something from this experience and either keep their development pipeline closer to the vest until much closer to actual delivery next time 'round or do a much better job of managing expectations of their customers. Outlaw is in a pretty bad situation here since they probably had no influence at all over the 972's release schedule and had to watch helplessly (like the rest of us) as SN tried to deal with their production issues.

On the bright side, at least they've realized that it's better to have something feature-competitive on the shelves and have offered the Onkyo as a stopgap. The alternative is a steady outflow of customers as competing products (both in terms of price and features...'cept for Trinnov) are available all over the marketplace now.

Who knows...it may turn out to be too expensive for a niche player to stay in the affordable processor business.

It has unfortunately been made public that I have replaced my 990 temporarily and established a relationship with an Onkyo 805 being used as a pre-pro only while I await the release of the 997. In view of this revelation, I have decided to release the following statement.

Over the past six years, two years as a 950 owner and four as a 990 owner, I’ve tried to participate in a vision of progressive audio that would rebuild the high end and create opportunity for all. Outlaw sought to bring real change to audiophiles and that will continue. Today, I want to briefly address this private matter. I have acted in a way that violates my obligations to my Home Theater system and that violates my — or any — sense of right and wrong. I apologize first, and most importantly, to my current pre-pro. I apologize to the entire system, whom I promised better. I do not believe that audio in the long run is about individual components. It is about ideas, the public good and doing what is best for the entire HT system. But I have disappointed and failed to live up to the standard I expected of myself.

I will be establishing a relationship with a new 997 upon its release. In the interim, I must now dedicate some time to regain the trust of my system. I will not be taking questions. Thank you very much. I will report back to you in short order. Thank you very much.

It's OK, mgdurand. Your system will forgive you - just offer it some good tunes or a couple movies.

mg,

I applaud your confessional honesty, even though I'm sure your Outlaw pre/pros think you're promiscuously putting the 'ho' in home theater.

OK, if the Sherwood 972 is shipping, where do you buy one? My Outlaw 1070 recently died and so I need a replacement and a good receiver is really all I need.

You could contact Sherwood or Axiom if you can't find a local dealer.

I have been watching the web for any news of the 972's releases and have pretty much come up empty. I did see a post somewhere that a large shipment of the 972s had shown up in LA, but that is pretty unconfirmed. I am not pushing for Outlaw to hurry up and release the 997, as I know that they will release it just as soon it is ready. They are certainly as or more motivated than consumers to get their product on the market. I will wait and get one when it is released. However, any thoughts from anyone if they think it will be ready before Christmas? I am beginning to have my doubts about that. I had cajoled my wife to give me one last Christmas, and am looking to allow her the great pleasure of making that offer again! However, doubts are creeping in as to the timing. Thanks!

As I understand it, the R-972 has technically launched, although online dealers are scarce so it's hard to track them down unless you have a local dealer you can talk to. Thus the 997 could be here as soon as mid-November, but it all depends on when Outlaw feels comfortable with the product. Based on the latest message from Outlaw, that may not be right at the 60-day mark.

Hi, Gonk. I saw the "might not be exactly 60 days" post and that was what motivated my comment. Am keeping my eyes peeled. Would really love to try out the new 997 for Christmas! Outlaws, we're all rooting for you!

"might not be exactly 60 days"

This gave me the feeling that Outlaw is having similar problems as Sherwood and was maneuvering for wiggle room.

I believe it was this forum where someone said that Macintosh said it would take them *3 yr* to integrate Trinnov.

I just received the following e-mail today:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: jc@axiomaudio
To: ;
Subject: Sherwood Newcastle R-972 - NOW AVAILABLE
Date: Thu, 8 Oct 2009 12:17:10 -0400

Hi,

The Newcastle R-972 is now being released in a limited quantity. Please, dial Axiom's toll free number to place your order.

Cordially,
jc

Cool - sounds like positive progress...

That's good news -- still not up on Axiom's website for general distribution.

Oh, good. Just in time for Christmas. I get to drop a couple of grand on me, my toy, and then have to scramble for cash for the rest of the family. As much as I'm happy, I'm sad. Looks like I'll be waiting 'till next spring, get the Christmas bills out of the way, save up the nickles and dimes all over again, then maybe I can justify the outlay for the Outlaw. I had the funds set aside, but after such a long delay, other "priorities" have come along and the larder is depleted. Oh well, such is life.

Based on further discussion with Outlaw; my hope is 997's for Christmas...fingers crossed.

Think I finally found one (SN R-972):

http://www.projectorbundles.com/SherwoodNewcastleR-972AVReceiver.aspx

Are we at the two minute - er - 60 day - warning yet?

I think that technically the 60-day period started ticking away some time in September, although the R-972's launch has continued to be rather clouded in mystery...

I guess there are really two dates here to consider - the first being the "60 day after SN R-972" release date, which is a date "cast in stone" by some form of agreement between the companies. The second is a "when it is ready to release" date, which can't be before the "60 day" date but could be anytime from soon after that to long after that. Any chance we could get a firm date from anyone on when the "60 day after SN R-972" date started, without suggesting that the Outlaw 997 release date will be exactly 60 days after that?

In mid-September, Sherwood announced the launch of the R-972. That would seem to be the most likely date to start the clock, putting the 60-day mark in mid-November. It won't be before that, I dare say.

There was a CEDIA announcment on 9/9 that the 972 was being released 9/10, so that ought to be the date.

Thinking back on this subject, I am starting to wonder... The R-972 remains remarkably scarce, to the point that it doesn't actually appear to be shipping in any meaningful quantity. One person on AVS got his hands on one last week, but otherwise the silence really is pretty significant. Particularly for a product like the R-972, which has been a subject of significant interest for a couple of years now.

If the announcement last month was not accompanied by a true product launch, and if the 60 day time frame is based on more than merely "contractual" limitations (if the factory is still working on the R-972's launch and can't divert resources to the 997), that 60-day countdown may not have started yet. I'd think that Axiom would have the R-972 on their web site the moment they had inventory to sell, but they don't even mention it currently. Maybe we haven't seen the start of that particular clock?

I guess what I'm trying to say is that I re-read the last few posts (particularly my own) after making a stop by AVS this morning, and I started feeling like the R-972 still wasn't quite there yet - which means that the 997, delayed both by the factory's need to shift gears and by Outlaw's need to be able to evaluate and perhaps adjust the final product to meet their needs, may still be too tough to pin down.

Hi, gonk. Excellent analysis. I was not considering that the factories would be the same, and if that is true, the second "release date" (the one based on realities and not the contractual obligation) may be, as in Star Wars, "far, far away", regardless of when they have the contractual freedom to release the 997. I hope not, but we will have to just wait and see.

The two will be built in the same factory - Sherwood's parent company (Inkel, I think, although they were called Etronics when the 990 launched) owns the factory and both units will come off the same assembly line.

I'm about ready to say screw it and get a Denon receiver to use as a pre/pro.

It's certainly an option.

I feel your pain. I got an Onkyo 805 to use as a pre-pro last January during the short wait for the 997. I love my Outlaw amp as well as my old 990. I very much want to wait for the 997. I have been very tempted to pull the trigger on an Onkyo 886 but have resisted. But if no word on the 997 by November, I may have ot re-examine as well. Crossing my fingers!

Well, let's hope Outlaw plans to extend an additional "thank you" discount to everyone who signed up on the e-mail pre-reservation list last year and have continued to wait!

According to an AVS forum users thread for the R-972 it looks like these models are coming out with functionality bugs that still need to be worked out. Risk of being a 1st release adopter? Maybe, but after putting out that kind of money to have it still have functionality issues is gotta be really frustrating.

Maybe in addition to working out software issues this situation might help S/N to better handle new product release procedures.

But then I'm not particularly used to waiting for new home theater products like this model and the 997 to be released in this fashion, so maybe this is a fairly standard situation. Someone on the thread also mentions a previous S/N model having bugs worked out after users have purchased them. I am aware that these products aren't going to be perfect, hence the USB and/or RS-232 ports built into the back of them, but it sounds like the R-972 is really buggy at the moment. Not sure that's the best condition to sell a new product when first impression, it seems, might make a significant difference in the success of a product.

It also makes me glad that Outlaw doesn't plan to release the 997 until it's good and ready.

And that concludes my random rambling for the day; thanks for listening.

What the current situation (with Outlaw, SN and, honestly, the rest of the consumer audio industry at present) tells me is that these pre/pros and receivers are becoming profoundly complicated pieces of digital circuity.

Perhaps the consumer HT industry needs to start rethinking it's "planned obsolescence" strategy of introducing new formats, circuits, processing modes, and connectors to motivate buyers to replace their equipment. If they don't, it will become impossible for anyone to get out hardware in a timely way. (Note that the video console industry is starting to think this way. It appears that the PS3 and Xbox 360 may have extended lifespans, compared to the five-year cycle that has been the norm.)

As far as the 997 is concerned, my attitude is that it's ready when it's ready. And when it's ready, I'LL be ready.

I'll be purchasing either the 997 or the UMC-1 Emo pre-pro when it is released.
Which ever one has the lease reported bugs will be the winner of my hard earned $$

This is a very true statement. I think it's very telling that both Lexicon and Anthem have elected to basically refine, rehash, and revise a single platform in an effort to stay current with the changes. It's also telling that both companies have raised the price of their processors by 50% to 100% along the way.
I've been thinking about this lately, too. We've reached a point where the level of complexity (both setup and even just reading the feature list) is almost a limiting factor for the average consumer. The industry needs to pause and evaluate where it is. I don't have much faith that it actually will (the push for 3D certainly shows no signs of that), but I think both manufacturers and consumers could benefit from a little thoughtful assessment of the situation...

I am in no hurry either and will wait patiently

The one thing I think would be cool since it is so close is a picture of the unit.

Nothing like getting over run by the wheels of technology! I agree that the industry needs to stop and re-evaluate. The frequency that the technology changes occur needs to slow their frantic race to market speed.

Emotiva is saying they just gave the green light for production of the UMC-1 with the first units hitting the States by mid-November ... hopefully the 997 isn't far behind ... the two should provide a healthy dose of competition for one another.

Given the large difference in price points I don't really consider them direct competitors.

Well, I am pretty sure Outlaw does. The UMC-1 is cheaper for a reason.

Really...?
Please tell me why...!

Well,
both companies deal only over the internet, both have very good reputations, both offer big bang for the buck in both amps, AVR and pre/pros. Both are currently getting ready to introduce new flagship components geared towards beating the big names like Onkyo, Yamaha, Sony and others. Both have great followings on the net and are frequently compared to one another by people getting ready to buy or upgrade. They are like the Cleveland Browns and the Pittsburgh Steelers, in the same neighborhood and naturally rivals.

Both will have their "flagship" pre/processors produced under contract in China. No thanks.

Both companies are internet-direct, certainly, but that doesn't make these two specific products direct competitors. The UMC-1 is not Emotiva's flagship product - that will be the XMC-1, due at some point in the future.

I believe Outlaw would consider all companies selling any type of speaker, sub, amp, processor or cable to be a direct competitor. I'll bet Outlaw and Emotiva both feel they are in direct competition every day.

Companies? Yes, at least in some ways. Products? The UMC-1 and Model 997 are distinct products, each with a different focus. They will be compared with each other solely because both come from companies that distribute internet-direct. There are some fairly notable differences in feature sets that would seem to prevent them from being direct competitors, though. For example, the more expensive Model 997 will provide room correction that has the potential to exceed Audyssey, while the UMC-1 will use a more basic EQ solution that is not as sophisticated as either Audyssey MultEQ or Trinnov. It is similar to the comparisons of OPPO's BDP-83 to less expensive players from Sony or Panasonic: they all play Blu-ray discs, but the more expensive product also has some additional features and benefits. The products aren't direct competitors, and so when they are compared the comparison must be balanced against an individual's needs. Or, to put it another way, simply because two products with different feature sets and price points may end up competing for an individual's money does not make them direct competitors in the marketplace.

Like everyone esle, I've hunkered down with my $1399 and am playing the waiting game. I was told about three weeks ago, when calling Outlaw > yep a non-committal date of approximately Christmas sounds reasonable.

Like everyone else I say get it right Outlaw, and when you turn on the tap. make sure you've got a warehouse load so the faithful don't have to wait too long.

I've got a 7.2 system with 15 professional BGW and AB International amps waiting to hook up to the 997, along with 4 DBX driverack 260's and a Crown RTA to boot>>>>

I'm chomping at the bit here>> but hoping patience will bring satisfaction.

And farewell so sad..Goodbye to Denon too....

I can say as a multi-amp user I wish I had gotten chosen as one of the one to Beta; but think you would have to have hands laid on you to get that.

I'm on the pre-order list for the Emotiva UMC-1, so I'm going to try that brand this time around.

I was happy with the 950, and then "upgraded" to the 970. The 970 despite the firmware fixes is still a buggy piece of machinery as it still suffers from random no-audio or lock ups on me. Nothing that I can't fix by getting up and flipping the switch on and off, but its still frustrating.

Now with the 997 coming out and the price premium of another $700 (or $500 with the $200 credit), over the UMC-1, and comparing the feature specs for what I really need, I'm going to go with the UMC-1.

Mick16,

If you want to harden the 970 from lock-up, call Scott and we will take a look at it. It seems that in the last18 months the problems have disappeared.

Peter

If it's any help mick16, I purchased a 970/7125 combo this past July. It gets heavy use on a daily basis at our house, from music to DirecTv and home theater use. We could not be happier, it sounds awesome and we have not had any problems, bugs or hiccups. On some weekends, it will be running from morning through the night continuous. Sorry to change the subject from the 997, but I thought I could offer some helpful input. Give PeterT a call.

Well, while Outlaw drags its feet, competition continues to hit the market.
The Integra DHC 40.1 pre/pro looks pretty darn good to me at this point and the MSRP aligns it with the 997.
I am seeing the Emo UMC-1 and the 997 looking less attractive each passing day.

It may look good, but is missing XLR; which I'd need for my amps for best performance. Worst thing to worse, would be to just good with the 80.1 > thats looks pretty good...

Will the 997 have Burr Browns as op amps? does anyone know; hello Outlaw > can you give an answer?

I would wait for a few "real world" reviews before running to the 80.1 Pre/Pro first. There has been an initial derogatory report of audible relay clicking under audio format selections. But this has not been confirmed.

Again, this really appears to be an example of "growing pains" in the new additional features of a new Pre/Pro.

Not given to impulsive behavior, but it does look good, I'm going Bowling Green to a dealer to hear one. The reports I see say that the DSX/new dolby format are nuances; with new speakers up front running about 20 dB less than the front speakers (high or wide > if its either DSX or Dolby.

I'll listen to a 997 before buying if at all possible

Maybe Scott or Peter could drop a few hints about how the testing is going to keep our hopes ablaze. I would like to know about the DACs. The 886 really interests me but I would like to know more about how the Trinnov is working out. We gotta be getting close, how bout some hints.

I agree. The reports of the Sherwood Newcastle are not encouraging. It's still hopeful that the issues can be corrected through firmware updates, but problems and silence aren't very heartening.

Scott

Noticed another non-Outlaw product on the home page (Qsonix 105). Don't know if it has been here for a while and I just missed it. Still not even a hint about the status of the 997. Given that it is almost the middle of November, I am becoming less and less optimistic about the chances of a 997 under the Christmas tree. Will keep checking, though. There must be some idea if the unit will be ready to ship in time for Xmas. Any chance?

avsforum reports are coming in and it doesn't sound good for the Newcastle unit as it currently exists, however most of the complaints seem very fixable via firmware updates.

Yes, it isn't very confidence inspiring at all.

My experience with firmware updates solving hardware problems has been a mixed bag. With my LG Blu-ray players, the firmware updates solved all the problems. With my Samsung blu-rays, the firmware updates were a disaster solving nothing.

Given the deafening silence here as to the status of the 997, I am coming to the conclusion that Santa will not have a 997 for me in his bag this year.

I am beginning to wonder what Outlaw is thinking.
Everybody is just begging for any information on the 997 but they seem to be spending their time trying to find other products to add to their line that are so high priced that the normal blue collar working class guy, like me, wouldn't even consider it.
Like a $4400 two channel management sytem.
I mean come on.
Are they trying to become an internet company for the rich and famous?

But it does everything iTunes can do, plus it costs $4400 more. I agree, the Outlaws had better start focusing on what they do best or they will find themselves up the creek without a Posse. Lets get the 997 on the street and forget all this other junk. If its not going to be ready for Xmas then say so! I'll have to suffer with the 886 or another 990. Any chance they put the 990 on sale for Xmas? Apply my $200 discount towards the 886 and Ill order one tomorrow.

A 990 with HDMI...I would jump. I starting to feel like Trinnov is not going to do anything for me and my BDP-83 does most of the work otherwise.

What's the deal with the PR 886/7500 combo? $2399 for both is a great deal. It makes the 886 only $800 more than the standard price of the 7500. If the Outlaws want to sell me a 886 for $800.....

I called them to check and they said the 997 will not be ready until the end of the year (sound familiar). Anyone want to go in on a combo to get a good deal on a 7500 while I get a good deal on the 886?

I've made arrangements to go hear a Integra 80.` next week in Kentucky. The unit is getting good reviews (AVS forum), albeit there is some reported clicking as format changes occur.

None the less a 9.2 (audyssey dsx dolby pl2z high or wide) sounds pretty good. It seems that outlaw could start giving some hints; as I'm ready to drop my dime if it sounds nice. According to friends who are in the audio biz its mrsp is 2300, but can be had for less.

You and me both!!