A little perspective from a traveling engineer...

Tutmos2 ... your order is a little out of order.
Japan, Korea/Taiwan, china, Malaysia

Remember, high tech companies w/ factories in the pacific rim make these factories produce to pretty high standards compared to other locally made items.

If we break down china manufacturing - there are spots of solid manufacturing.
example: glass. a majority of precision glass comes out of china.... including stuff made by Corning, New york.

glass made for DSLR has roots in China.

just a little different view.

Later,
_Mark

There are two separate tracks to this "China" discussions: quality and what I call "conscience."

For the record I am not disputing / discussing / commenting on the quality of made-in-China products.

I am concerned with all other aspects that buying from China entails: human rights, the environment, the military threat, the economic monster, the theft of intellectual property, etc. that we, the Western consumer have created and are feeding because we have Mall-Warted our conscience and decided to ignore all of that in order to save (perceptually only) an almighty dollar.

China is not the only country that is guilty of theift of intellectual property. Japan has stolen much of US IP (I can give examples of medical equipment based on US patents of Coulter Corp. by Japanise medical firms).

Me too! I'm thinking of waiting for a Mac pre/pro with Trinnov and HDMI in the $1.5k range. I suspect I'll be picking it up on Audiogon in about 20 years.

Hey, you gotta plan ahead, right?

On the China front, let's not forget that Oppo makes most (if not all) of their transports there and they are some of the best media transports in the world at any price.

To say that you can't get good quality out of China is just BS.

Just try to get a speaker these days that isn't made from Chinese components. Focal is about the only company I can think of (although I have no idea where their caps, etc. are from) since they build their own tweeters and midrange drivers, but you pay a hefty price for getting a French made speaker.

Most of the European speaker component makers now build the bulk of their components in China.

It's nearly impossible to get American made electronics these days, even if they have McIntosh on the front.

ATI, B&K Components, Krell, Martin Logan, Legacy Audio are not impossible to get these days. Hard to find, though, in some parts.

I agree with you that there are many high quality components being made in China alongside the junk. I think the real issue is that China has a rather spotty record in worker's rights, safety, and standards (ie, lead paint on toys), which is going to make a lot of folks wary of their products in general, and a legitimate reason to avoid them.

While the social conditions are deplorable in a lot of these factories, I have seen first hand how quality can vary wildly...even within the same plant. There really is no sense of "pride in your work" in a lot of these assembly factories and there is a systemic and rampant corruption issue country-wide.

And for any of you that have actually lived and worked in China for any length of time (as I have), you'll note that Chinese workers get an almost gleeful feeling from sticking it to the man (ESPECIALLY if "the man" is a foreign boss/company...double secret bonus points if the man is of Japanese origin).

Real life example:

A global brand name (perhaps named after a particular fruit) engages with a company in China to assemble a particular electronic gadget. They are allowed to choose local subcomponent suppliers (say....capacitors) by themselves as long as those components meet specific test criteria. Component manufacturer X sends their sales guy to the plant manager where the gadgets are assembled. He tells the plant manager that due to some "mishap" they can't meet either the price or volume requirements of a particular part, but they've got some "B stock" that will pass the requisite tests (because the tests are rigged). The change will actually result in a savings of 10 cents per device. The sales guy says:

"Tell you what, we'll bill Orange.com the original price. After they pay, our company and YOU PERSONALLY will split the difference. We'll send the proceeds to a foreign bank account of your choice."

The plant manager agrees because he wants to send his kids to school in Canada and that's...well...expensive.

9 months later, Orange.com starts noticing an excessive failure rate on a particular device. After a long investigation (long because the plant manager thwarts it at every opportunity) it is determined that capacitors from a specific supplier have a substantially higher failure rate than expected. Orange.com contacts the authorities. After a flurry of phone calls, orange.com realizes that both the salesman at the supplier and the plant manager seem to have relatives in high places (cuz kickbacks in China have a way of flowing uphill post haste). They are told that this would cause their province to lose face to global manufacturers. Unless they want their expansion plans for their assembly facility to be unexpectedly delayed, they should just fire the plant manager and forget about the whole thing. Meanwhile, they get to eat the costs of any returns during the warranty period. Failures outside of warranty are eaten by the hapless consumer.

I have seen similar things happen a number of times in China, first hand. I don't mean to imply that it is impossible to get quality goods from China as that is clearly not true, but it is very difficult to ensure consistent quality even if you're a "big fish" in the global economy. This fact combined with the stomach churning (for me, at least) policies of the Chinese government have brought me to the place that I'm at now...I avoid Chinese products when I can.

Best,

I own both Outlaw and Emotiva products. I have experienced cosmetic flaws on products from both companies. Although, I must say the customer service on taking care of the problem was far better with Emotiva than with Outlaw. I am very pleased with the performance of equipment from both firms. I still recommend both companies to my friends.

That said, I will continue to buy products made in China. Obviously, the main advantage is the price/performance value. My Outlaw sub is visually beautiful and sounds great at an excellent price. My Emotiva amp and speakers are an exceptionally amazing value. I understand that the quality control issues can be a hassle for anyone doing their product manufacturing in China. Staying on top of the QC issue is a top priority.

The last prime lens I bought under the Nikon brand was assembled in China (although I understand the optics were made in Japan). My Chinese made Benro tripod, a copy of Gitzo, is an very excellent piece of equipment at 1/3 the price of the Gitzo. My Oppo DMP-83 universal player was assembled in China.

I am aware of the ideological and ethical objections to Chinese operations and politics. Our own country has not been devoid of such problems in the past.

I also understand the frustrations of buyers waiting for the long promised introduction of products from both Outlaw and Emotiva. To me, the cost savings and the excellent performance levels are well worth the wait. I'm sure the management from both firms gains a lot of maturity in the product introduction and delivery timeframe with each delay.

I am on the wait list for the XMC-1 pre/pro and I contiue to be patient. My wallet is in agreement.

I also have bought products from both Outlaw and Emotiva. I love the 990 I bought in march..it works and sounds great and the system I use it in is almost entirely for music...so the lack of HDMI switching is not an issue.

At the time I bought that I also wanted something WITH full hdmi capabilities for my main home theater system. Since neither Outlaw nor Emotiva had one available, I went with the Integra dhc 9.9 which WAS immediately available from a local high end dealer I have been dealing with for 30 years.

We all have and had the choice to buy something that was already available, or wait for Outlaw or Emotiva to bring their new generation processors to market.

I am totally comfortable buying from Outlaw as well as Emotiva. They both make fine products at great prices and are backed by excellent customer support.


My decision to buy the Integra 5 months ago was the correct one for me at that time. I needed something that worked well and that I could actually buy then. The Integra fulfilled both.

The 997 and the UMC1 are both real close to being available now. That's a good thing for consumers as there will now be more competition in the market. I like having more to choose from.