I have to hand to Outlaw....atleast they havn't promised and missed release dates over and over and over and over like the "other" internet "E"lectronics company. Keep staying true, and get it right the first time out. Now hurry up and get the dang 997 done! :-)

Both of these companies have missed their anticipated dates.....over and over. Outlaws announcement back in Sept '08 said they anticipated delivery by year end. From then on delivery is said to be shortly after SN delivers the 972. SN has missed numerous release dates which in turn makes Outlaw miss release dates. No one has a processor from either company, they are both very late.

IMHO....the Outlaws have "managed the delays" a heck of a lot better. The "E" company, on the other hand, just keeps throwing dates out over and over and over...... My vote is for the 997 when available. :-)

IMHO both companies failed to meet delivery expectations.

Missing delivery dates is a common thing in this industry. Everybody under estimates the complexity of software development, and when you are dealing with delays from multiple suppliers (with interlocked dependencies), things snowball. Yet Outlaw Audio made it clear that they were waiting for the parent design to ship before the 997 would, so anyone could clearly track what was going on. I suppose that the 1070 would not have been discontinued as soon as it was had the 997 been ready on time, but they have made good on this with a real sweet deal on the 970 (and the supply of 970's will disappear real soon as a result).

For those that can't wait, there is always a good product from "0/I".

I suspect that Outlaw has had nearly as many missed deadlines as Emotiva - the difference is that theirs have been almost exclusively internal deadlines, rather than public ones. The difference means nothing to the companies' sales numbers and probably not much more to the blood pressure for Peter Tribeman and Dan Laufman (both of whom I suspect would much prefer to be shipping products with a year or more worth of existing owners).

There is a difference, though. Keeping schedules quiet when significant uncertainty exists - and particularly when you already know the schedule is flawed, as I suspect was true for some of the earlier Emotiva dates - may cost you a few sales but it also better manages expectations, which is more fair to your customer base. Notice that Outlaw hasn't said any more than a minimum of 60 days after the R-972 for the 997? They surely want to allow for the possibility of a bug or some other issue(s) arising in the field that they won't want to ship before fixing.

As one who called for Outlaw to provide more info regarding their plans for their next pre/pro, I have absolutely to problems / qualms with how they have managed things to date.

The told us their plans and we've been able to follow them. Delays are to be expected - especially given that we know the basis for their plans.

But for the 997 being made in China, I'd still be happily waiting for its release. I am looking forward to hearing how users take to its many (planned) features - and how those compare to market alternatives.

For now I am REALLY enjoying my new (made in Malaysia) Onkyo PR-SC886.

I'm not trying to criticize either company just pointing out that both companies are way past the original delivery time frames. Outlaw learned it's lesson with the 950 and I assume next time around Emo will also be a bit more tight lipped.

Very true, Keta. I also agree that as much as I wish the 997 had arrived already, I think Outlaw has exhibited excellent restraint in keeping the 997 as under wraps as possible and in managing expectations once the wraps came off last fall. Emotiva was under the AV123 umbrella when the LMC-1 had its development delays, but they still over-promised on the schedule from the very start. Several of their self-imposed deadlines seemed dubious to me - the original one (late 2007, I think, which was maybe six months after the original announcement), and then last year when they talked about a release 6 or 8 weeks after Cirrus first delivered 49700 chips (even though that chip is the heart and brain of the unit). I think I'm skeptical enough of such announcements that I didn't think much about the delays, but I would hate to think about someone who delayed buying something in winter 2008 based on those projections. We can look to the current tumultuous situation at AV123 for examples of such customers, with several products (or product fixes) still struggling with multi-year development delays. Promising a product "coming soon" can be a good way to prevet potential sales from going to some other company, but they are dangerous - too many that get delayed too long can cost you business in the long run.

I think they've both missed the boat on their new pre-processors (the 997 for Outlaw and the UMC-1 for Emotiva) and both companies are left in the lurch by the actual manufacturer of their products (in China).

To be honest, I don't understand why some folks feel the need to create some artificial sense of "rivalry" between Outlaw and Emotiva. The companies are much more alike than they are different. They sell mid to higher end audio gear under their own brand that is manufactured by someone else (though it could be said that Outlaw's ATI amps are made "in house" since Peter Tribeman is involved with both companies).

I've never owned any Emotiva gear, but they appear to offer a very similar set of products at prices that appear to undercut Outlaw's for the most part. If I was willing to Wink at the "made in China" thing, I'd have no qualms about buying gear from either company. In the meantime, I'm enjoying my Outlaw equipment which I purchased prior to spending a few years in China and seeing first hand what a poop hole it is.

Best,

"both companies are left in the lurch by the actual manufacturer of their products (in China)."

It's the s/w development, not the mfg, that's been the holdup.

Not sending $ to China will not help it emerge from poopholiness.

A few observations:

I doubt that a Chinese factory is delaying the 997, since it's design is happening in Korea. The company the owns the Sherwood brand (Inkel, formerly Etronics) is based in Korea, although they appear to have added some Chinese manufacturing resources in the last couple years.

Peter Tribeman does not have any role at ATI. He is president of Atlantic Technology, but that is a different company. Outlaw has used ATI (and their California factory) for their multichannel amps for at least a decade now, and several other companies use ATI for amps. (Lexicon even has an amp that shares a number of design characteristics with the 7900.)

I suspect that some of the "Outlaw vs. Emotiva" stuff comes from Mark Schifter's early marketing, which focused on Emotiva (and particularly their problematic LMC-1) as an "Outlaw-killer". The two companies are almost alone as internet-direct home theater electronics makers, which is going to inevitably lead to comparisons and debate, similar to the early HSU Research vs. SVS debates.

As for the discussions about buying products made in China, we each make our own decisions. As I've said in other threads, Outlaw builds in a number of factories located in several countries. Their multichannel amps and speakers are built in the US (which is one reason they cost more than Emotiva's Chinese-built amps and speakers), the monoblocks are built in Malaysia, and the subs and 990 are built in China.

Oh, no that wasn't my contention. My contention is that using Chinese manufacturing for niche gear tends to lead to poorer quality. And there's also the fact that you're funding a repressive government. So given the choice, I try to avoid products that are manufactured there.

After spending a few years there, you'll notice the overarching mantra for Chinese manufacturing...products need only to look good enough to be purchased and to last one second longer than whatever warranty your foreign business parter is forcing you to give. This superficial "quality" is pervasive in China and Chinese workers bring that mindset to work with them as they assemble your parts.

Best,

I have to agree on China. Whenever humanly possible I avoid buying anything Chinese, simply because they always fail or poison the people using it. A large part of why I bought my Outlaw Amp was because it was made in the US. I had, mistakenly it seems, assumed the 997 was also made in the US. I would have paid an extra $500+ if it had been made in the US. As it is I'll have to take a much harder look other products. You always have to wonder if a Chinese electronic component will cut a corner and burn your house down.

If you really think about it, the manufacturing prowess of the US has waned over the years and many US compamies (from autos to refrigerators to computers to airplanes) are outsourcing their manufacturing to "off shore" facilities to cut costs and maintan a positive profit margin. When it comes to electronics, no one seems to be complaining about all the electronic components that go onto the PCB's of all those electronic "gadgets" that US consumers hanker for are sourced from the Far East. I'd love to own a completely US built electronic component. The only problem is that it simply isn't available most of us "regular Joes".
I'm not defending China of any other country. You can get crapily built stuff anywhere on the globe (the US included). A buying decision boils down to your acessment of of how well a piece of electronic equipment is engineered and assembled. Also, does the company offer a good warranty and good customer service. If those things are done well, you are more likely to have a product that will have some longevity. Given the rapid pace of technilogical change in the consumer electronics market, you'll probably buy a peice of equipment that still work well but will be less than cutting edge in 3 to 5 years.

No argument that manufacturing in China is something that requires caution and oversight to maintain quality. That's true anywhere, of course, but moreso for China. And I understand reluctance to buy Chinese-made products. I just doubt that there's an actual delay in product development for the Model 997 because of it - there's no evidence I've seen that would suggest this.
Since Outlaw doesn\'t own their own factory the products are made at an assortment of different locations. There are probably not many factories around the US that would be available to build surround processors, and even fewer with the in-house engineering resources to partner with Outlaw on developing a platform. Anthem builds theirs in Canada, although I don't know where all the sub-assemblies (circuit boards, etc.) come from and it's a lot more than a $500 adder to get an HDMI-equipped processor from Anthem.
I agree with this assessment. On the one hand, I will never try to dissuade someone from scratching a product off their shopping list because it was built in China - there are compelling arguments to support that choice, and I'm not fool enough to try to contradict them if someone has made this choice. On the other hand, we've lost a lot of our domestic manufacturing might, and China has risen to prominence whether we like it or not. Heck, go walk through a toy store and look for what's not made in China. Kinda scary. I'd love to see a North American-built processor that does what I want, with the performance I want, well supported by its manufacturer, at a price I can afford. So far, I can't find one that does all of those. In the meanwhile, I will stick with the same formula I've used for years when considering major purchases: research, weigh the plusses and minuses, and get the one that I feel best fits my needs. Manufacturing origin does play a role for me, but I've not yet established a personal "off limits" policy for any specific nation. That's just me, though.

Gonk,

Good points as usual. I'm one of those who won't buy something made in China unless I absolutely have to. I understand Outlaw is limited by their outsourcing of manufacturing, and it's not their 'fault' that the 997 will be made in China, as that's where SN is building the platforms. I too would pay more for a US (or even North/South American) built product versus one made in China, but as you point out, there really isn't anything available in this price range. I buy Outlaw amps over Emotiva (even though they are more money) as I'd rather support a US company. I also happen to feel Outlaw's amps are better built and Outlaw's customer support is better (IMO). In the past, I've unknowingly purchased some gear that was made in China, but I've made a decision that anything I purchase in the future won't be made there. The first thing I look for now on anything I buy is where it's made (and it's damn hard to find anything that's not made in China). I guess down the road I will have to decide whether the 997 is a product that's worth compromising my principles for or not. Unfortunately, at this point I'd have to say I won't be getting one.

I paid $1550US for my Onkyo PR-SC886, delivered to my door, all in.

Since Outlaw insists on shipping its products to Canada via UPS ground, and since UPS then subjects us to outlandish brokerage fees in the process, my guess is that even if I were to discount the expected list price of the 997 to take into account the $100 credit as a former 950 buyer, the all-in price for a 997 would be essentially the same as what I paid for the 886.

Except for a couple of features, and Trinnov vs. Audyssey in particular, these two units are identical for all intents and purposes. The 886 is a great pre/pro. The 997 will be as well.

So I was able to buy a made-in-Malaysia unit, keep my conscience intact, get essentially the same product, and not pay a penny more.

I'm glad to hear that there are others out there who avoid made-in-China products as much as possible. It's only if we continue to do so, and spread the word, that real changes can happen. If more and more people do, and post about it, some manufacturers will take note and change their practices. Once a few do, the flow in that direction will get stronger. And before you know it we will be able to buy all of our products from somewhere other than China.

The world will be a much better place when we can do so.

Some good points are being made. I should qualify my statement above as not meaning that I have something against Asian products as opposed to simply Chinese. I'd put most Japanese manufactured products on par with US made, Toyota and Honda for example well above any other. Just like in the western hemisphere there's a scale of where I'd like buy products from, US, Canada, Mexico, random central / south American country and at the bottom of the scale Cuba. In Asia my scale would be Japan, Korea, Malaysia, Taiwan, China.

I'll probably still end up buying the 997 based on my experience with the company and high expectationson of them backing up the product when problems do come up.

You can find good stuff made in China, and crap. One example is a wonderfull little wood turning lathe sold by Grizzly Machinery. This is a very well made tool that has gotten excellent reviews. Harbor Freight sells a similar tool (it's so similar, it might as well be clone). It seems both tools are made at the same factory, under the same assembly line. The Grizzly version is subject to extreme inspection and the units that fail this end up being sold by Harbor Freight!

A little perspective from a traveling engineer...

Tutmos2 ... your order is a little out of order.
Japan, Korea/Taiwan, china, Malaysia

Remember, high tech companies w/ factories in the pacific rim make these factories produce to pretty high standards compared to other locally made items.

If we break down china manufacturing - there are spots of solid manufacturing.
example: glass. a majority of precision glass comes out of china.... including stuff made by Corning, New york.

glass made for DSLR has roots in China.

just a little different view.

Later,
_Mark

There are two separate tracks to this "China" discussions: quality and what I call "conscience."

For the record I am not disputing / discussing / commenting on the quality of made-in-China products.

I am concerned with all other aspects that buying from China entails: human rights, the environment, the military threat, the economic monster, the theft of intellectual property, etc. that we, the Western consumer have created and are feeding because we have Mall-Warted our conscience and decided to ignore all of that in order to save (perceptually only) an almighty dollar.

China is not the only country that is guilty of theift of intellectual property. Japan has stolen much of US IP (I can give examples of medical equipment based on US patents of Coulter Corp. by Japanise medical firms).

Me too! I'm thinking of waiting for a Mac pre/pro with Trinnov and HDMI in the $1.5k range. I suspect I'll be picking it up on Audiogon in about 20 years.

Hey, you gotta plan ahead, right?

On the China front, let's not forget that Oppo makes most (if not all) of their transports there and they are some of the best media transports in the world at any price.

To say that you can't get good quality out of China is just BS.

Just try to get a speaker these days that isn't made from Chinese components. Focal is about the only company I can think of (although I have no idea where their caps, etc. are from) since they build their own tweeters and midrange drivers, but you pay a hefty price for getting a French made speaker.

Most of the European speaker component makers now build the bulk of their components in China.

It's nearly impossible to get American made electronics these days, even if they have McIntosh on the front.

ATI, B&K Components, Krell, Martin Logan, Legacy Audio are not impossible to get these days. Hard to find, though, in some parts.

I agree with you that there are many high quality components being made in China alongside the junk. I think the real issue is that China has a rather spotty record in worker's rights, safety, and standards (ie, lead paint on toys), which is going to make a lot of folks wary of their products in general, and a legitimate reason to avoid them.

While the social conditions are deplorable in a lot of these factories, I have seen first hand how quality can vary wildly...even within the same plant. There really is no sense of "pride in your work" in a lot of these assembly factories and there is a systemic and rampant corruption issue country-wide.

And for any of you that have actually lived and worked in China for any length of time (as I have), you'll note that Chinese workers get an almost gleeful feeling from sticking it to the man (ESPECIALLY if "the man" is a foreign boss/company...double secret bonus points if the man is of Japanese origin).

Real life example:

A global brand name (perhaps named after a particular fruit) engages with a company in China to assemble a particular electronic gadget. They are allowed to choose local subcomponent suppliers (say....capacitors) by themselves as long as those components meet specific test criteria. Component manufacturer X sends their sales guy to the plant manager where the gadgets are assembled. He tells the plant manager that due to some "mishap" they can't meet either the price or volume requirements of a particular part, but they've got some "B stock" that will pass the requisite tests (because the tests are rigged). The change will actually result in a savings of 10 cents per device. The sales guy says:

"Tell you what, we'll bill Orange.com the original price. After they pay, our company and YOU PERSONALLY will split the difference. We'll send the proceeds to a foreign bank account of your choice."

The plant manager agrees because he wants to send his kids to school in Canada and that's...well...expensive.

9 months later, Orange.com starts noticing an excessive failure rate on a particular device. After a long investigation (long because the plant manager thwarts it at every opportunity) it is determined that capacitors from a specific supplier have a substantially higher failure rate than expected. Orange.com contacts the authorities. After a flurry of phone calls, orange.com realizes that both the salesman at the supplier and the plant manager seem to have relatives in high places (cuz kickbacks in China have a way of flowing uphill post haste). They are told that this would cause their province to lose face to global manufacturers. Unless they want their expansion plans for their assembly facility to be unexpectedly delayed, they should just fire the plant manager and forget about the whole thing. Meanwhile, they get to eat the costs of any returns during the warranty period. Failures outside of warranty are eaten by the hapless consumer.

I have seen similar things happen a number of times in China, first hand. I don't mean to imply that it is impossible to get quality goods from China as that is clearly not true, but it is very difficult to ensure consistent quality even if you're a "big fish" in the global economy. This fact combined with the stomach churning (for me, at least) policies of the Chinese government have brought me to the place that I'm at now...I avoid Chinese products when I can.

Best,

I own both Outlaw and Emotiva products. I have experienced cosmetic flaws on products from both companies. Although, I must say the customer service on taking care of the problem was far better with Emotiva than with Outlaw. I am very pleased with the performance of equipment from both firms. I still recommend both companies to my friends.

That said, I will continue to buy products made in China. Obviously, the main advantage is the price/performance value. My Outlaw sub is visually beautiful and sounds great at an excellent price. My Emotiva amp and speakers are an exceptionally amazing value. I understand that the quality control issues can be a hassle for anyone doing their product manufacturing in China. Staying on top of the QC issue is a top priority.

The last prime lens I bought under the Nikon brand was assembled in China (although I understand the optics were made in Japan). My Chinese made Benro tripod, a copy of Gitzo, is an very excellent piece of equipment at 1/3 the price of the Gitzo. My Oppo DMP-83 universal player was assembled in China.

I am aware of the ideological and ethical objections to Chinese operations and politics. Our own country has not been devoid of such problems in the past.

I also understand the frustrations of buyers waiting for the long promised introduction of products from both Outlaw and Emotiva. To me, the cost savings and the excellent performance levels are well worth the wait. I'm sure the management from both firms gains a lot of maturity in the product introduction and delivery timeframe with each delay.

I am on the wait list for the XMC-1 pre/pro and I contiue to be patient. My wallet is in agreement.

I also have bought products from both Outlaw and Emotiva. I love the 990 I bought in march..it works and sounds great and the system I use it in is almost entirely for music...so the lack of HDMI switching is not an issue.

At the time I bought that I also wanted something WITH full hdmi capabilities for my main home theater system. Since neither Outlaw nor Emotiva had one available, I went with the Integra dhc 9.9 which WAS immediately available from a local high end dealer I have been dealing with for 30 years.

We all have and had the choice to buy something that was already available, or wait for Outlaw or Emotiva to bring their new generation processors to market.

I am totally comfortable buying from Outlaw as well as Emotiva. They both make fine products at great prices and are backed by excellent customer support.


My decision to buy the Integra 5 months ago was the correct one for me at that time. I needed something that worked well and that I could actually buy then. The Integra fulfilled both.

The 997 and the UMC1 are both real close to being available now. That's a good thing for consumers as there will now be more competition in the market. I like having more to choose from.

I'm sure software issues have been the holdup. I think software has been becoming more and more the heart of AV gear for years and my guess is that the developers lacked a software engineer team strong enough to handle the issues that came up.

Regardless of my frustration, if Trinnov is really all that and a bag of Fritos, I'm buying two anyway.

"...my guess is that the developers lacked a software engineer team strong enough to handle the issues that came up."
+1
Every new electronic projector we develop is late beyond original schedule due to software/firmware being late. It's almost always the software that's the most difficult.

At this point, I would agree that's pretty typical. Heck, I've had a beta production sample OPPO Digital BDP-83 in my den since last September, with just one hardware change around November, but the firmware took until May to be ready for consumer use - and that's with a pretty darn strong team of programmers that were closely coordinating with their chip vendors. Likewise, the R-972's design has been sufficiently hardware-locked that they manufactured one or two runs of them a month or more ago.

The design of analog and digital audio and video components is comparatively straightforward (manufacturers have been refining those design processes for decades), but these things are purpose-built computers now - and that's a whole different deal.

Well, they don't call them preamp/ processors for noything. The more features you attempt to to build into a processor for the customer (Hi-Def video processing, HDMI switching, Dolby Volume, Audessy/Trinnov room eq/ signal processing, full 2 and 3 zone control, I-pod connectivity, Firewire, fancy OSD's, etc., etc...), the more processing power is required to pull it off. Gone are the days of descrite componentry and simple, robust design archetectures. You're essentially buying a computer so software/ firmware implementation & compatability are major techological hurtles to overcome. It's amazing that the engineers are still able to pull it off IMHO.

Well said Bonjovi.

It’s not your "father’s preamp” anymore. The software and hardwareOn these components are so interconnected that any changes, no matter how minor, require a complete re-check of the entire operating system.

Because of the complexity of the on-board technologies we are not aware of any company offering preamps that has not encountered numerous delays and glitches. To make matters even more difficult, there are often major compatibility problems between otherwise well-designed source components. You just never know what you will get in that HDMI handshake (Sometimes it’s a “joy buzzer” instead.)

In any event, we and Sherwood Newcastle continue to move ahead through the minefield of software/firmware challenges. For the record, the 990 was a relative piece of cake to refine compared to the 997.We are getting there, but we are being extra cautious.

Peter

Any word on whether or not the R-972 has been officially released or not? It sounds like it has been a very limited release so far. Does that count? Has the 60 day count down to when Outlaw could release the 997 begun or not? We've been told to watch the AVS Forums on S/N, but it is unclear if the 60 day count down has begun or not.

Ummm...

Read PeterT's post again.

Outlaw is "being extra cautious."

Given that, do you really think that the "60 day count down" is anything more than a guesstimate that was made some time ago?

Based on what I've been seeing ever since the original announcement last fall, the 60 day timeline is the contractually-defined minimum duration between launch of the R-972 and the launch of the 997. That means that if Sherwood officially launched the R-972 tomorrow, Outlaw would have the option of releasing no sooner than September 30 - but they would also be able to wait longer if the firmware still had some "joy buzzer" issue (to use Peter's great comment) that Sherwood had gone to market with but that Outlaw wasn't willing to tolerate on launch day.

I thought that on AVS Jeff from SN claimed that 972's were now shipping and were trickling into the retail channel?

I hadn't seen that post, but I was also out of town for a week and didn't keep a real close eye on the forums.

"I thought that on AVS Jeff from SN claimed that 972's were now shipping and were trickling into the retail channel?"

I've been following the threads at AVS and AFAIK Jeff said many weeks ago that by now they would be shipping, which is very different than what you said.

I guess I've been following them more closely as what he said is not different from what I said.

Here's what Jeff said earlier this month:

"We have now shipped a small number of R-972's to our reps, distributors and a handful of dealers. The number shipped so far is minute. In total, it is barely more than one per state. From my memory, 6 dealers received units. I suspect they are all sold..."

That sounds like they are trickling into dealers. So what I said is correct.

If you want to claim that Jeff is lying you can go right ahead. I for one, believe him.

Now I suppose you could quibble and claim that that doesn't count because they are not shipping in enough quantity that someone could go into a store and buy one. First, that is like claiming a Christmas or two ago that Nintendo Wii's weren't really shipping because you couldn't find one in a store because they weren't shipping in enough volume. But seriously, I didn't claim Jeff said they were shipping in volume and were in wide distribution. I said Jeff said they were trickling in, which is the gist of what he said -- and is very different from what you suggested. Yup, it does sound smarmy to me. :p

No doubt SN won't claim the receiver has "launched" until they have thousands of them to ship. For the handful of people who were able to buy one, however, I doubt they think their new toy is imaginary.

Moreover, it sounds like the early adopters aren't going to have every feature available.

Noah, are you Noah Katz?

I guess I misinterpreted.

The trickling part is right, but when to me "are shipping" means I can order one from a dealer's stock, and that's not the case but is supposed to have been.

Peter Tribeman saying "we and Sherwood Newcastle continue to move ahead through the minefield of software/firmware challenges" sure doesn't sound encouraging.

Yes, I'm Noah Katz.

Sherwood's launch approach does seem curious to me, but since they go through a dealer network instead of internet-direct I guess there are some inevitably different pressures on Sherwood compared to what I'm more used to seeing from Outlaw, OPPO Digital, or other online distribution approaches.
Just my opinion, but I'll go out on a limb and say that Peter's not going to do anything to generate unrealistic expectations on a release date. I'd expect a healthy dose of caution because he knows how easy it is for little things (much less big things) to interfere with a planned roll-out. Better to under-promise (and, barring major intervention by Mr. Murphy, over-deliver) than to over-promise or otherwise feed the anticipation (which will grow suitably intense all by itself, I suspect) and get burned by a last-minute snag that you have to stop and fix.

Every time I think about this, I'm reminded of the current state of affairs at AV123, where they started mentioning the mantra "under-promise and over-deliver" some time last year but continue to repeatedly set and miss deadlines for new products, product fixes, and delivery of pre-purchased products. It has led them to shut down their online forum for the last six months and counting to try to manage the negative reactions.

Well Noah, it sounds like we really aren't that far apart on this. There was another thread where people were bashing SN pretty roughly -- and I agree they deserve it.

Two years of [fill in the blank] nothing and even now more promising than delivering -- or at least that's my interpretation.

Out of the gates with a limp and a whimper.

I have been very very close numerous times to just go in another direction altogether because it is so hard to have faith in SN after such a debacle.

Still, the Trinnov option strikes me -- and I admit, not having heard it this remains a leap of faith on my part -- as one of the few products to really differentiate itself.

IMO they've been penny wise and pound foolish. The money should have been spent on a top shelf software/firmware team and gotten this out over a year ago and possibly stood alone as an option for some.

The receiver option would have been fine for me, but I am crossing my fingers and taking another leap of faith that the Outlaw implementation will be a better choice.

I am standing by, cash in hand, albeit reluctantly.

Finally coming to market now, in this economy, where people are going to be tight, is bound to be an uphill struggle. I hope this doesn't turn into a Pioneer plasma debacle for any party concerned.

Jeff from Sherwood posted yesterday at AVS: "We expect to have inventory available on the R-972 by the end of August, (2009)."

Just about every forum I've ever been on has a long running situation where at least one business is claiming "just two more weeks" for six to twelve months!

Jeff (assuming you mean Jeff Hipps, SN's SVP of Marketing) sent me an email in early March telling me that they'd have product in April. His past predictions haven't been particularly useful.

" His past predictions haven't been particularly useful. "

Yes, unless functioning units exist and it's just a transportation issue, it seems that we're back to square one.