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#81137 - 06/02/09 03:02 AM 997 Obsolete before release?
Saturn5 Offline
Gunslinger

Registered: 03/04/09
Posts: 16
Loc: Raleigh NC
HDMI 1.4 is due out on June 30, 2009.
http://tech.blorge.com/Structure:%20/2009/05/30/new-hdmi-14-spec-could-lead-to-consumer-confusion/

After reading the article, it really doesn't look like the new features of HDMI 1.4 will be all that important for a while, unless you want 3D or 4k x 2k resolution. So, no I'm not saying the 997 will be obsolete. I'm still excited about it's release. But I do think it's funny that they waited for HDMI 1.3 to be standardized for release, and 1.4 will be out before they get to market.

It's the nature of the gadget world, I suppose.
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#81138 - 06/02/09 05:12 AM Re: 997 Obsolete before release?
gonk Offline
Desperado

Registered: 03/21/01
Posts: 14054
Loc: Memphis, TN USA
Is it obsolete? I'll say NO! (Then I'll explain why I'm yelling...)

I recently updated my HDMI FAQ for HDMI v1.4, shortly before the June publication date was announced. Personally, I find v1.4 more insulting than anything else. Support for 3D and for 2k resolutions is nice, but using either of those will entail replacing my display and my source components before it justifies replacing my surround processor. It also would be helpful for there to be actual standards in the consumer marketplace that can make use of those two, as without those it's not possible to replace my display or sources to make use of technology that would justify the inclusion of v1.4. I'd really rather that they wait to revise the HDMI spec until an industry-adopted consumer 3D spec exists, since past experience with HDMI tells us they'll have to revise it again later to get it right (see HDMI v1.1, v1.2, and v1.3 and lossless audio formats). I've seen some reports suggesting that we may see the first consumer-oriented 3D standard published within the next year or so, which means we could see hardware that supports it at soon as mid- to late-2011 (with an "early adopter" price tag). The bandwidth for 2k is largely a side-effect of planning for 3D, I think, but again we are even farther away from sources offering that sort of resolution in the first place. Displays will likely get there first, but they'll require video scaling of lower-res (1080p and below) sources - which existing HDMI versions can already do just fine - and they'll be rare and very expensive for a good while to come. The rest of the update is (at least in my opinion) pure screw-the-consumer marketing maneuvering.

First, they've revised the "small" HDMI connector that they created in v1.3, before anyone's really had a chance to use the first one. Not only does that hurt manufacturers who might have a use for it, it penalizes any consumers who might have tried to buy into the v1.3 connector. What was wrong with the first one that you had to immediately re-design it? Why not wait and get it right the first time? And if you're going to re-design connectors, why not provide a locking solution for the standard HDMI connector? It's been hands-down the most poorly-designed connector in the marketplace for almost a decade now, it would seem like a better place to focus attention.

Also, integrating Ethernet into HDMI? Why? To truly phase out network cables, we need to replace every network-enabled device with v1.4 components, and we still need to connect one of those devices to our network somehow. I'm also unclear on how the network will work, as the press releases to date have not made any effort to provide details. Ethernet is not a daisy-chain architecture. It's a star topography. That means to enable Ethernet across a group of HDMI devices we either need to sacrifice some of the benefits of the star topography (speed and simpler troubleshooting) for something similar to a daisy-chain (anybody out there remember 10base2 networks?) or identify a "hub" HDMI component that will need to incorporate a network switch (increasing cost of that component and requiring the consumer to properly identify that component, which could easily be either a TV or a surround receiver depending on the application). All that complexity saves us what, exactly? A couple of ethernet cables? We replace all that expensive gear to get rid of two or three inexpensive cables (as long as you don't buy from Denon) that have reliable locking connectors? We still have to set up networking on each component, and we still need to have some way to get a network connection to the equipment rack. This doesn't make life easier for consumers - it just creates confusion by "blurring" the wiring when they try to figure out how to make Ethernet work in their system. And manufacturers don't save anything. They still need to provide an Ethernet interface to use this ability, and they need to provide an Ethernet jack to allow for the inevitable situation of a consumer not having a fully v1.4 system. The only winner I see here is HDMI's licensing income.

The automotive bit is obviously unrelated to home theater. I wonder if it couldn't have been handled using the existing v1.3 small connector or a new automotive connector as a "v1.3c" revision.

I've read one source that suggested the only reason they added Ethernet was to differentiate their feature set from DisplayPort . The same source that suggested the effort to keep some distance on DisplayPort suggested that the automotive aspect of v1.4 was aimed at getting into that sector before IEEE-1394 (AKA Firewire or iLink) does. Those are the only features in the revised spec that are truly new and can be used without waiting for future video formats to be developed and adopted as standards. If both truly were driven by a desire to compete with other standards rather than provide an actual benefit to the user, I'm not interested in pushing for the standard's adoption in the marketplace. Heck, I could still be quite happy with HDMI v1.1 or v1.2.
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#81139 - 06/02/09 03:02 PM Re: 997 Obsolete before release?
Ritz2 Offline
Desperado

Registered: 01/27/09
Posts: 414
Loc: Virginia
I agree with Gonk. The 1.4 spec is a bit irrelevant for the time being and I'm not even aware of any shipping chipsets supporting it.

The gaffe for the 997 and the Sherwood equivalent is not that it's obsolete when it eventually ships, but that it has missed a substantial window of opportunity when it could have been sold at a premium over typical "prosumer" products that have now long since been available. So Sherwood and Outlaw will lose out on the opportunity to charge the premiums necessary to quickly recoup their development costs and will instead be forced to compete with more cut-rate pricing. I suspect they'd hoped to avoid that until quite a bit longer into the product's life cycle.
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#81140 - 06/02/09 03:13 PM Re: 997 Obsolete before release?
gonk Offline
Desperado

Registered: 03/21/01
Posts: 14054
Loc: Memphis, TN USA
Quote:
The 1.4 spec is a bit irrelevant for the time being and I'm not even aware of any shipping chipsets supporting it.
The spec isn't even real yet - it's due to be published in the next four weeks. There won't be supporting chipsets for months - they can't design the chipsets until they have the final spec. HDMI v1.3 was published in June and the PS3 used the first transmitter chipset that November, but receiver chipsets didn't arrive until the following year and those early transmitter chipsets didn't support all of the features because they were so heavily rushed through development to fit the PS3's schedule (that's why the PS3 can't bitstream the new formats even though it's a "v1.3" product). I'd expect a lag of at least a year between the arrival of the official spec and any shipping hardware that supports it, and it could easily be longer.
Quote:
The gaffe for the 997 and the Sherwood equivalent is not that it's obsolete when it eventually ships, but that it has missed a substantial window of opportunity when it could have been sold at a premium over typical "prosumer" products that have now long since been available.
There's no question that the R-972 is late, but I never believed that Sherwood could beat companies like Onkyo, Yamaha, and Denon to market - for that matter, even getting to market in the same general time frame was unlikely. Anthem, who rolled out HDMI v1.1 in a surround processor when nobody else would by building it into their existing AVM platform, has only had HDMI v1.3 in their processor for maybe six months. (One of the BDP-83 beta testers swapped out his Statement D2 for a D2v during the beta, and he was one of the first to get his hands on one.)
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#81141 - 06/03/09 03:48 AM Re: 997 Obsolete before release?
Saturn5 Offline
Gunslinger

Registered: 03/04/09
Posts: 16
Loc: Raleigh NC
I agree, Gonk.
I just thought it funny 1.4 is coming out before the 997.

Thanks for the great HDMI FAQ. It's more info in one place about HDMI than I've found just about anywhere.
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#81142 - 06/04/09 02:50 PM Re: 997 Obsolete before release?
dcleary Offline
Gunslinger

Registered: 09/29/08
Posts: 16
Loc: Robbinsville, NJ
I'd be happy if they could just provide a locking mechanism like Gonk suggested and make handshakes more reliable. Error correction for audio and video (ala ethernet) might be a good idea as well. HDMI has been poorly done...unless you are seller of over priced cables.

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#81143 - 06/04/09 03:07 PM Re: 997 Obsolete before release?
gonk Offline
Desperado

Registered: 03/21/01
Posts: 14054
Loc: Memphis, TN USA
Much of the blame for handshaking falls on HDCP, a standard that has not had a series of new versions released but could certainly benefit from some revision. HDCP over DVI is no better.
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#81144 - 06/04/09 11:56 PM Re: 997 Obsolete before release?
getech Offline
Gunslinger

Registered: 08/11/06
Posts: 38
Loc: Oakland, CA
No...say it ain;t true...no 997 yet?? My god, I leave for a few months come back and vaporware still?? My god my friends...this can't be.
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#81145 - 06/05/09 03:03 AM Re: 997 Obsolete before release?
gonk Offline
Desperado

Registered: 03/21/01
Posts: 14054
Loc: Memphis, TN USA
As has been said before, the 997 has to follow the 972. The 972 is reported to be getting a first production run stateside in early June (so potentially this week) with some final QC testing prior to release...
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