in a few days, I'm very tempted to get the Integra 9.8. It would be nice to hear some kind of communication from the powers that be at Outlaw. We all understand the Sherwood Newcastle issues, but the silence is deafening. Are we looking at summer, fall, winter, or totally unknown?

I always thought the 997 would come out before the Oppo.

It's been quite some time since I thought the 997 could arrive before the BDP-83. After all, the BDP-83 started beta testing near the end of last year (although it was a long-running beta test conducted in parallel with the firmware development, as beta testers didn't have the full feature set operating until around the time the EAP started).

The last rumors on AVS put the 972 hitting the street soon (late April to mid May). Outlaw may be waiting to say anything until they have word about initial shipments - or for their partner (Sherwood) to have a chance to say something publicly. It'd probably be in poor taste to steal their thunder about a product announcement like that.

You likely won't see a 997 on the street until the end of summer at the earliest. Figure the 972 won't hit the streets for at least 2 weeks and when you delay the 997 by at least 60 more days you are at the beginning of August. With all the interest in the 997 it is going to be hard to get one at first. I hope someone like Gonk is already testing the beta version since it sounds like the platform is semi-solid. With all the changes in firmware factored in, it may be Xmas before the machine is ready to just buy off the shelf. I don't mind the delay since I want one for Xmas anyway.

I am looking at the Maggies 1.6 for a second HT setup. Any advice?? I would likely use my 990 and 7500 as the pre/pro and amp. I would really like to f=hear your impressions of the surrond capabilities of the maggies. I have read a lot of reviews but I would rather hear from an owner. I would probably use them in a smallish room 1600 ft3. I also have a huge room (8000 ft3)I could set them up in for music. Any input would be appreciated.

I feel like the Penguin in the bud ice commercials only waiting for the 997. Dooby dooby do.

Well, a mid-July or early August release on the 997 would fit my wallet a bit better. I just dished out the $$ for the BDP-83.

I seriously doubt that we will be seeing a street date any earlier than that.

XenonMan, I have a pair of Maggie 1.6QR's which are driven by a 990. The power amp was an Adcom GFA535 (100 watts/channel into 4 ohms and very good sound) but is now a pair of nOrh Le Amp II monoblocks (rated at 400w into 4 ohms) with a Yaqin tube buffer between the 990 and the amps. I think the sound is marvelous. Currently there is no surround gear and the 990 runs in stereo. But a couple of years ago we played the DVD of "Monsters Inc" (using the Adcom amp at the time and no buffer) and there was unmistakable surround sound, with both effects and voices coming from behind us, where there were no speakers. Illusion certainly, but a pretty convincing one to both my wife and me. There have been similar experiences with other material, but none as surprising as that.
So do the Maggies have surround capability? Yes indeed, even all by themselves.

I didn't know the BDP-83 was for sale.

To XenonMan:

The Maggies are a long story. When I first listened to them, I loved the "wall of sound," but they seemed dark and cut off at the top. I was planning to get some Martin Logans when I walked into "Stereo Unlimited" in Walnut Creek, CA, and heard a mod of the 1.6. The owner is a very eccentric guy, but he has a fantastic proprietary "super tweeter" that he wires into almost every speaker he sells.

With this addition, the Maggies become an airy, alive, transformed duo. For music, I wouldn't trade them for anything I've ever heard. I like them better than unmodified Maggy 3.6's. I don't know if you can find a way to get a similar treatment in Miami. The tweeter is mounted on top of the speakers, and it's delicate, so shipping from CA seems out of the question.

I do use the subwoofer with the Maggies for music, because the 1.6's don't go much below 50 Hz. And I would strongly urge you to use tubes for the Maggies - they weren't the same with solid state. My room is about 6500 cubic feet (14'W x 21'L x 23'H), and they can get pretty loud, but they did bad things with my old NAD AVR at high volumes. No problem with the Jolida, though. Now I just need a good turntable to hook in to the Jolida.

For home theater applications, they will give you a huge room of sound. Not as much punch as a box speaker, but I never really notice. The Maggies give you that "being there" quality, which is what I was after.

The clincher for me was when I took my wife to listen to the Martin Logan vs the Maggies. Women are thought to have a better ability to hear the harmonics of music, and in addition she has "perfect pitch." She saw the ML's, and immediately said they were cute. She saw the 1.6's, and said they couldn't go in the living room. But when the music played, she couldn't do without the Maggies. No contest.

I made a little website on shutterfly with pictures of my set-up. I keep my speakers in an unorthodox position - recommended by the Stereo Unlimited people. It creates a beautiful sound stage.
Link

Now I'll need new pictures with my Oppo (and hopefully 997).

It is currently being offered to those who got on the waiting list. It will probably be available for sale to everyone in early July - given that shipments till end-May is already sold-out.

Also, I am beginning to think that the 997 will arrive AFTER the BD-83 Lite arrives - no or minimal analog section - basically a digital transport/decoder . Oppo is supposedly exploring something like that. Such an unit, with < $300 price tag - if it arrives by Sep 2009 - would be a perfect complement to the new processors.

What "bad things" did they do if you don't mind divulging. I will power them with my 7500 which is good for 300w to 4 ohms. I have heard they sometimes flutter when driven hard, doesn't really hurt them but but I guess it can be annoying.

I doubt that it will take them six weeks to re-stock after the interest list buyers get theirs. They already have the stock on hand for those initial buyers, and I think it's safe to presume they have additional units in production to replenish that stock. I'd guess closer to early June or mid June.

I seriously doubt we'll see a little brother to the BDP-83 by September. They've been heavily focused on the BDP-83 so far, and I'm not sure they've even fixed in on a specific feature set for such a player yet. They'll need to develop at least some new board designs, then test it. The quickest turnaround they've had between player releases was going from the 970HD (released in May 2006) to the 981HD (released in December 2006) - and the 981HD had a lot of its architecture carried over from the 971H.

You'll probably be safe with the 7500, but the NAD definitely caused some distortion at higher volume. The tubes produce a liquid midrange I doubt you could duplicate with a SS amp.

If you like the liquid midrange of tubes try a tube buffer between your preamp and power amp, or the disc player and preamp. I haven't regretted buying my Yaqin, or if you want to avoid Chinese-made eqpt the Musical Fidelity units are good.

What NAD amp were you using? What power output? I am somewhat concerned about overdriving the maggies since I have heard about the distortion at high levels before. As inefficient as they are, it should take a lot of power to overdrive them. I have seen some reviews which suggest the 7500 will put out significantly more than 300 watts rated before it gets to its THD rated level and even more before it clips.

The NAD was a T761, which turned out to be very poorly built. It was universally hated by its owners. I believe it had about 100 wpc. But all watts are not created equal. My Jolida puts out 70 wpc, yet it plays louder, with far less distortion, and much more bass authority and control.

A well built SS amp should not be an issue. It's better to run an amp well within its parameters than to push it to its limits. You can always ask the store to hook the maggies up to your amp and see what you think. If they won't, see if you can do a home trial. And do yourself a favor and listen to what they can do with a quality tube amp while you're at the store.

Thanks akiddoc,
Problem is, I am in Miami and believe it or not there is not a Magnepan dealer near here. Deerfield beach is as close as it gets. It sounds like the NAD wasn't up the the challenge. I don't normally listen to music that loud and I am sure the Outlaw would do well with the Maggies but without being able to audition them I may have to wait a bit before I decide.

That NAD amp was very generously rated at 100wpc @4ohms. Small wonder it got sloppy trying to drive the Maggies at higher volumes. The 1.6QR needs a LOT of power. I have no problems driving mine with the Outlaw 755 (the predecessor to the 7500). The sound is quite luscious.

I'm a little unclear on the utility of a "tube buffer," but whatever floats your boat. I used to have a pair of VTL Compact 100 mono blocks. And while the sound was good, I think even the best tube amps available have a higher noise floor and lower S/N than our Outlaw amps. Glad it turned out OK for ya.

Best,

Pop quiz: what do the Oppo BDP-83 and Outlaw 997 have most in common?

Answer: they are both made in China.

Which is really too bad - and the reason why I declined Oppo's offer to buy one - and why I won't be buying the 997.

How much equipment is really built in the US and is it REALLY any better or just more expensive?

US-made stuff I've used: Dynakits (assembled by me); AR turntable bought in 1962 and still in use with upgraded Mayware unipivot arm made in Japan; Grado Red phono cartridge; and Magneplanar 1.6QR speakers, which are better at their price level - in my opinion and that of a lot of others reading this - than practically anything else made anywhere.

Sorry if I was misunderstood.

I'm not advocating buy-in-America, or buy-Canadian, or buy-anywhere-else. I'm advocating never-buy-from-China.

For reasons that have nothing to do with price (or even quality) I refuse to buy anything that's made in China - if I can find a similar product that's made elsewhere - even if I have to pay more.

So if it comes down to the Outlaw 997 (at say $1400 less my $100 credit as a Model 950 owner) that's made in China, or the Onkyo PR-SC886 (for the $1600 that I can get it for) then I will gladly pay $300 more for the 886. Both products, while different in some of their specifics, are as "similar" as you can get in the marketplace - as far as features and functionality goes. But the difference is simple: the 886 is made in Malaysia. Done deal. No surprise to Outlaw since Peter T and I had a great conversation about this a couple of years ago when they launched their subs - and we pretty much agreed to disagree on the subject.

Same deal with BD players. No I will not be able to find an all-in-one BD/SACD/DVD-A etc. comparable product, but I can stick with my current slate of SACD and DVD-A devices and simply buy a great BD player for the same price as the Oppo which does everything with BD that the Oppo does - and just as well. Reason for not buying the Oppo: it's made in China.

I have a conscience that trumps my needs as a raw consumer. I refuse to MallWartize my conscience by buying made-in-China. And the world will be a much better place in future if others did the same.

Like that's going to happen!

I believe that Outlaw has its electronic products made in Taiwan. At least at this time in history, that is not China.

It depends on their products. The multichannel amps are all built in California. The BLS and LCR are also built domestically (east coast, as I recall). The 970 (and the 1070, 950, and 1050) is built in Malaysia by Eastech. I think the Model 2200 is built in Taiwan. I'm not sure where the RR2150 is built (they moved factories several years ago, but I don't know where either the old or current facilities are located). The Model 990 entered production in Korea, where Etronics/Inkel is based, but based on what Jeff's noted about R-972 pictures it seems they may have moved some of their manufacturing to China. The subs are built in the same facility that builds for HSU Research, which I believe is in China.

I'm running an all maggie surround system as well. 1.6s in the front (phantom center for now), MMG sides and MGMC1 rears. I have a 4 channel Exodus (hypex class D based) amp running the surrounds, but the 1.6s are actively crossed at 100Hz each to its own dipole dual 15" woofer cabinet so the setup is flat down to about 25, wih some more in room response as well. Then I have a sub as well The 1.6s and woofers are all run by two Crown macrotech 2400s (about 8-900 wpc into 4 ohms). My house is a very open floor plan, and I run things at full reference often, with very minimal distortion.

In other words, I think one of the secrets to using maggies for HT is to unload the low end from them and have plenty of power to spare if you are going for full theater like sound levels. As for the effect of the dipole design on surround character, I think the issue there is placement. I have a enthusiastic and supporting wife, so big black cloth covered panels all over the family room is OK. My speakers are all placed right where they should be, but the room itself has uneven architecture. Once I applied my Onkyo 885's room correction, I noticed a pretty definite improvement in the channel steering, so the 997 would be a definite asset in a similar situation.

Additionally, I'd argue that a maggie setup can have just as much punch as box speakers if you augment the low end as I have. IMO magnepan is way too generous with their quoted lowend capability, but then that the practical side of marketing needs I guess. I personally found my 1.6s o be pretty weak from 70-80 Hz on down before I built the woofer cabinets.

I drive my maggie 1.6's with a Threshol s500e, which puts out 500 watts per channel into their 4 ohm load. They can get REALLY loud with no distotion or over driving problems.

For anyone who cares, I have been enjoying my Oppo 83 for several days now, and the picture is beautiful on blu-ray, as one would expect. But the shocker is that regular DVD's look astoundingly good. I was upconverting my DVD's before, but this is a new order of magnitude. My son watched Star Wars 3 tonight, and it was like watching a new movie, with the all new picture.

The sound on the various new blu-ray audio formats is fun as well. The sound is really low in distortion, which allows you to turn the Maggie 1.6's up to ridiculous volume levels (which my wife did not appreciate) (I bought the Outlaw interconnects to pass the multiple channels.). It works okay as a CD player as well, although it seems tilted up a little. It should sound good through unmodified Maggies, since they're a little lacking upstairs.

I.m not as worried about getting a new processor right now. I'm having fun with this new toy. It IS a bit of a pain without HDMI thoroughfare, though. On the 990, I've got SACD and BD through the 7.1 channel, DVD through the DVD channel, and stereo CD's bypassing the 990 and going directly into the Jolida.

So how is that dhc 9.9, Strindl?

I'm loving it. I bought it from a local high end store in february, the week before I ordered a 990 from Outlaw. I've been able to compare things between the two extensively.

Sound quality wise, I put it as a wash...they each sound superb. Same for the ergonomics...both are set up nicely. The integra does run warmer than the Outlaw though.

Where the Integra has a distinct advantage is it's HDMI and video upscaling capabilities. I just got my Oppo BDP-83 last week and was able to get rid of all of these cables from my old DVD player..which had no HDMI capability, and replace them with one single HDMI cable.



I also only need one HDMI cable from my integra to my samsung TV. The 9.9 allows me to set each video input individually..I can upscale any input to whatever resolution I want and adjust a myriad of picture enhancements separatly for each input.

I upscale my HD cable box to 1080P and the picture looks even better than it does natively with either HD or SD programing. For the Oppo..I let that handle the upconverting and video processing and have the Integra just pass the picture it receives through to the TV. It works great.

A number of folks have found that the results are quite good when using 7.1 input for DVD, as well. Might be worth a little experimenting to see which you prefer.

There are good reasons and bad reasons for not buying stuff made in China. Oppo seems to be doing things right, their quality is not suffering because they must be watching the factory like a hawk. Companies that go to China just to save money will find out they must spend more on QC. But the fact is that China DOES have some of the best equipped factories for this stuff. Going elsewhere might cost you in start up time.

Since I don't expect a company to actually possess a conscience, I am not at all surprised that so many have moved their production to China.

However individuals who have one can decide to listen to their conscience, and not just their wallets, and choose to buy from elsewhere.

I really don't consider "listening to my wallet" as a reason for purchasing the BDP-83. The Oppo replaced a Sony BDP-S550 in my main system that was about 1/2 the price of the Oppo. Both perform well, but the additional features made the Oppo a no brainer for me.

While I will agree that I try not to purchase products manufactured in China, there are a few exceptions that I will make, and the 997 will be one of those exceptions.

Trying not to buy from China is becoming increasingly hard to do. Where the finished product is built hardly accounts for origin of all the component pieces. With more and more of the piece parts being built in China, it's becoming almost impossible not to buy a product that doesn't have some Chinese content. Having a budget for higher priced items could reduce Chinese content, but there's a strong likelihood that at least some of the electronic devices are from China, as that's fast becoming the only source. So, unless you only own vintage stuff, or you do without, you're likely to have something made in China. In my case, and I'm sure this applies to others, staying within budget requires accepting Chinese products whether we like it or not or doing without.

As for products that are announced well before they're actually available for sale, I believe this is the result of the fierce competition in consumer technology products. Companies announce the latest new technology "coming soon" to distract consumers from buying already available products from competitors. And once one company makes a "coming soon" announcement, the others risk customers jumping to another brand that seems to be moving forward to the next generation first unless they also announce. Personally, I've learned to be patient and never expect the new technology anytime close to when the announcements say it will be available. And, those products that are the first releases are usually not everything the later releases turn out to be. So, many that jump on the first new technology product on the market find they made a bad choice and are back in line for the later product when it finally does come to market. I've found patience pays off in only having to buy once and getting the better performing and/or better value product in the long run.

In all this discussion of whether to avoid Chinese-made products and whether that's even possible, I have not yet seen any mention of working conditions in Chinese factories. I also haven't seen very much anywhere to suggest that such conditions are acceptable by western standards.

It just occurred to me to wonder how our (including mine with my Yaqin tube buffer) moral position in this area differs from that of happy 19th-century wearers of cotton clothing they could afford because the cotton for it was produced by slave labor.

Casuistry time!

Concerning not buying products from China there is a very interesting book, "A Year Without "MADE IN CHINA": One Family's True Life Adventure in the Global Economy" by Sara Bongiorni. She and her family had an extremely difficult time doint that. Here is a link to an article she wrote:

Not Buying from China

Interesting article. My personal choice is to avoid products made in China, but as the article's author pointed out that is becoming almost impossible. I am in the market for some casual shoes and I've found that most of the major brands I've bought from in the past are now made in China. It's becoming pervasive with almost all consumer goods.

Another factor is content. I had a conference call this morning to discuss a potential LEED project (the USGBC's certification system for sustainable buildings). Part of the materials & resources aspect of LEED looks are regional content, or building materials that are completely sourced from within 500 miles of the jobsite. That doesn't just mean where it's "made" - that means where the constituent parts come from. For concrete, that means documenting where the sand, gravel, and cement all come from. For wood, that means where the tree came from and where it was processed. They exclude mechanical and electrical systems from these credits because it is simply impossible to document all the hundreds of pieces of steel, copper, plastic, and electronics that go into our systems. If you did succeed in such a documentation process, though, I bet it would be an interesting read. How much steel was recycled content and how far the steel traveled from recycling bin to jobsite; how much steel was new material and how far it traveled from the ground to the site; same for copper tubing and wiring; and even where all the various printed circuit boards, components, and miscellaneous bits and pieces came from...

So, if they every were to unionize the labor force in China, we'd be SOL if they went on strike.

International unions . . . an idea whose time has come - again. But I fear we're moving away from the entertainment hardware world and perilously close to the - dare I write the word? - real world.

Major American and European hardware manufacturers have made a big deal out of ensuring that their manufacturing facilities in China treat their employees well, and because of the media coverage, the plants try to comply and we're told things are "peachy". The problem is, it ends there - all of the subcontracting manufacturers that make the ICs, boards, etc (not to mention every other thing made in China) are free from scrutiny and the abuse is rampant. Amazing how cheaply things can be made with slave labor (see Dubai as well).

Another problem with China is that to expand their industrial output, they are building coal fired power plants at a rapid pace. In a few years China's CO2 output could exceed the rest of the world combined. While Europe and America are now trying to deal with the carbon footprint of their power use, the Chinese are destroying our effort. At some point the rest of the world will have to boycott China if they don't rein in their use of coal (why don't they go nuke like France, provided they don't use Russian Cheynobl type reactors?). It would be a good excuse to start building our own automated assembly plants and build our high tech stuff at home.