Here is what I said in my last post:

"I'm talking only about the audio performance of a pre/pro: how it sounds."

lanion, with respect to your post, I will address it paragraph by paragraph:

"I am one to avoid snake oil and things being over-hyped myself, but different CD players sound different. Saying that digital signals have been 'mastered' is rather naive.... just like analog signals."

Are you saying that these different CD players sound different because of the pre/pro? Could you take two CD players that sound different, connect them to two different pre/pros, and through a blind listening test tell which pre/pro they are connected to? In a statistically significant way? I don't think I could.

Next paragraph.

"Dealing with analog signals may be mastered, but any turntable maker knows you have to put a ton of money into analog to make everything sensitive enough to pick up the information on the record."

I assume you meant cartridge manufacturer - and not turntable maker. If so let's say we have two pre/pros with but minute differences in any of the three sound properties that I listed (frequency response, noise, distortion), and assuming our cartridge manufacturer has spent his ton of money, are we likely to hear differences between those two pre/pros? Very minute - perhaps? Akin to wrapping a bunch of blankets around one's speakers (getting back to my original comment)?

Last paragraph.

"In digital you can easily have sloppy amplification, regardless of up-sampling. Converting digital to analog can be very noise if there is a cheap OPAMP anywhere in the circuit."

Again talking about pre/pros, can you name a single one that you have listened to, that was to your ears "very noisy" and which you knew was a result of a "cheap OPAMP." How was it "noisy?" Actual noise? Distortion? Inaccurate frequency response? Was it in a $1000 pre/pro (the bottom of the range that I used above) or in a $10,000 pre/pro?

It seems to me that with but the very rare exceptions, with all properly designed pre/pros, how it sounds, in terms of noise, distortion, and frequency response, should not be a concern. There can be screw-ups (take the hiss problems with the original Outlaw Model 950 as a good case in point) but I trust that any credible designer / manufacturer nowadays will be able to at least get the basic sound right. Yes I'm going to listen first to what I buy to make sure (and in the case of Outlaw at least get some form trial period / free return if I can't hear it before buying), but I'd be very surprised if what I heard from any pre/pro was anything but clean sound (or rather the lack of noticeable noise, distortion, or frequency irregularities) in comparison to any other pre/pro. There's many other things that could go wrong. Not to pick on such an obvious target, but the 950's DTS-ES bug is a good example.

And for the record, my Model 950 sounds great - which is what I would expect.

Mr. Mackwood, I have to ask if your comments about cartridges, and ignoring of differences among turntables, are based on personal listening experience. As for pre-pros, my personal experience has only been with different analogue preamplifiers (Dynakit PAS-3X, Adcom GTP500, and Outlaw 990). The Dyna unit was used with the Dyna Stereo 70 (no surprise there) but both solidstate units have been used with the Adcom GFA535 power amp, and the Outlaw is now driving a pair of nOrh Le Amp II monoblocks via a Yaqin tube buffer.

It certainly seems to me that I have heard differences in the sound, though I know perfectly well that it is impossible to rule out suggestion effects, short of a double-blind A/B comparison which virtually nobody is in a position to arrange - nor I think do most people really want to.

Once again, allow me to repeat: my comments were only relating to the sound of pre/pros. I was not at all commenting on turntables, or cartridges, or whatever else. That's another discussion altogether.

To summarize: regardless of the source (analogue or digital) getting the basic sound right in a pre/pro (ie. no noticeable noise, distortion, and flat frequency response over the audible range) should not be a challenge to today's designers and manufacturers of pre/pros, and this should hold true at all price points.

Yes they can sometimes mess up. But then it becomes very obvious - and obviously a design or manufacturing fault or defect which almost always gets quickly corrected (a la Model 950 hiss problem.)

There is much more that can go wrong (eg. firmware) or that distinguishes between models (eg. features) than the basic sound properties of a pre/pro.

As someone who will be purchasing a new (not made-in-China) unit within weeks to replace my Model 950, I'm looking first to its feature set. Because the unit at the top of my list right now is relatively new, I am seeking out comments and reviews about its functionality etc. (For example how does its implementation of room correction software compare to other units.) I have a lot of trouble accepting (and in fact don't accept) that there exists a huge differences in "sound" between these units. In fact I don't believe that I could hear any difference at all. And certainly not something as dramatic as what my speakers would sound like if I wrapped them in several blankets!

Does anyone else want to comment on their experiences hearing a difference in the sound of a pre/pro (as opposed to the source material, room acoustics, speakers, etc.)?

I absolutely agree with you Mr. Mackwood. By far the biggest factor in how a system sounds is the moving part - the speakers. The placement of these fine pieces of art is the magic of room correction and no electronic gizmo properly designed is going to outweigh the actual producer of the sound.

AVS Forum is saying June 6th arrival from China to Sherwood for first batch. Not sure how long quality control testing will take, but it sounds like they're looking at mid-July to be fully up to speed in terms of meeting demand. September delivery for the 997?

Of course, we've heard dates before, and who knows if anything will show up in the QC testing, but hopefully we'll start hearing something tangible real soon.

Good news over at the AVS Forums . According to Jeff, the first units are expected June 5th and a large shipment is expected at the end of June and he expects to be caught up with the R-972 demand by mid-July!

There's still some talk of ongoing QC testing to do. It's possible that they're doing something similar to what OPPO has done in the past: build a first batch once you feel sure you have the hardware locked in and get it shipped over from Asia, then sit on it while finalizing the firmware. You can then load the final firmware manually onto that first batch. It's tedious and takes some stateside labor, but it is still faster than waiting on final firmware to start building the batch and then waiting for it to sail across the Pacific.

Agreed! But it seems they have a "fast track" in mind if all back orders are expected to be filled by mid-July.

I'm afraid I couldn't wait and bought an Onkyo Pro 885 with the Audyssey room EQ set-up. Simply incredible performance difference from my old Sony ES set-up. Kal R. from Stereophile told me this would happen, but I didn't believe him until I installed the 885 in my HT. Loudspeakers and room acoustics are no longer the big drivers they used to be - the processor can easily level out differences between rooms AND the loudspeakers !!!

I didn't believe it either, but I will tell you it is true. Mr. Mackwood - the world has indeed changed - digital signal processing, applied intelligently, trumps everything else.

I am hopeful the Model 997 will do well - The Outlaws are a great company, but Onkyo is also putting out a great product at a very competitive price - I got my 885 for less than $ 1000 and the new 886 / Integra 9.9 has a street price of less than $ 1500.00 Trinnov will have to be significantly better than Audyssey to win many of these sales back.

Congrats again.

And again for the record, I have no doubt that the Audyssey system had a huge effect, and that there will exist very noticeable differences between it and other systems - like Trinnov. Other features (and proprietary surround modes etc.) can and will alter the sound considerably and very noticeably as well. However my comment that the basic sound properties (noise, distortion, and frequency response) should be identically-excellent for any properly-designed pre/pro, across all price points, stands.