Well, It is almost the end of Febuary and still no signs of the Outlaw 997.
We need a scout.

I volunteer Gonk.

I've taken to following the Sherwood R-972 thread at AVS in light of the platform relationship, and the R-972 remains MIA (although there have been hints of progress). The 997 will by necessity follow after the R-972 by at least a little time. That being said, I'd happily try a little after-hours recon of the Outlaw offices to see if I could find sample hardware, but you're closer...

I volunteer. I'm only 15 minutes away!!!

Please let us know what you find...haha The 997 and the Oppo BDP-83 are the final peices to my HT puzzle. It is very hard waiting....

I'm waiting to the same two items! :rolleyes:

The Cardinals finally made it to the Super Bowl so hell must be close to freezing over. Maybe the 997 and BDp-83 will be available soon!

Hell freezing over will be when the Lions are in the superbowl...

I think many are waiting on the Oppo and 997, I am also on that list. Those are 2 of the 3 items on my list to complete my HT.

I'm looking forward to the arrival of both - the 997 because I think it looks like it should be a really nice piece of gear, and the BDP-83 because I want to see people's reaction to it (I think it's going to do well). If I had to guess right now, I think we'll see the BDP-83 first.

Everyone,

Since the Outlaw 997 is based upon the platform of the Newcastle Model 972 receiver, there is nothing we can finalize until that product is completed and in production. We are anxiously awaiting for them to work out all of the development issues. They have made significant headway. However, there are still some modifications that have to be tested and wrung out. Until Newcastle works these things through, we cannot finalize our own unit.

Please continue to monitor the Newcastle threads at AVS Forum and you will know what progress has occurred on the 972. Pending a relatively trouble-free launch of that product, our intention is to be in production of the 997 sixty days later.

Peter

Sounds awesome Peter, I just hope THEY work fast! (But get it right )

Ted

Well Peter that is sommmmmee optimistic
news.
Sixty days plus production of the Sherwood 972 receiver (that is not on the market) we are looking at a June,July venue for the 997.

Okay plenty of time to stash some loot.
Remind you I don't like waiting.

However Gonk and Hullguy stay alert!!
Gonk...let your fingers do the walkin' on the internet.
Hullguy....Take that ride.....don't get caught.

Frank

Just was on the Sherwood website. I did not see any balanced inputs on the 972.

Does anyone know if the 997 will have balanced inputs?
I purchased balanced cables from Outlaw three years ago

As I recall, the 997 will have balanced outputs (which the R-972 receiver will not) but not any balanced inputs.

My Mistake Gonk I meant outputs.

Thanks

Just ordered a 7500 to go with the 997 when it comes out. Couldn't pass up the deal at $1299, now where is that 997?

Unfortunatly, it sounds like June/July range now... :-(

Thanks for the info, Peter.

In the meantime, you guys can start taking a collection to buy me a 997.

Thanks in advance.

On the plus side, I just got an e-mail from Oppo that the BDP-83 beta program starts today.

The EAP, you mean? Yep, it's getting real close...

Fast forward one month...

From what I can tell, the closest Outlaw equivalent setup (in price) to the Sherwood Newcastle R-972 will be the Outlaw Model 997 + Model 7075 amplifier. I am anxious to compare the value proposition (cost, features, performance) between the Outlaw solution and the Sherwood solution. But right off the bat, we're talking less amplifier power (for a similar amount of money) with the 997/7075.

Is the fact that you'll have a choice of power amplifier options with the 997 the ONLY advantage it will have over the R-972, or will there be other advantages as well? (I mean, other than the obvious regarding Outlaw being an excellent company with very high quality products.)

BTW: I am also on that Oppo BDP-83 waiting list as well. It's interesting that people who have done a lot of research (like myself) have zeroed in on the same products as the ONES TO GET.

What I've read about Sherwood's receivers amps is pretty positive (particularly at the R-965/R-972 level in their product line), but a separate power amp like the 7075 still offers the opportunity to provide better sound quality - and unless you have speakers that need some power behind them, the 75+ watts of power from the 7075 may be more than you'll ever use anyway. Certainly a 997/7125 combo will cost more while offering similar power on paper, but the 7125 will likely beat the onboard amp section of just about any receiver's amps unless you get into the megabuck receivers (the ones that Denon, Yamaha, and Pioneer Elite charge $5k for). At least, I hope those receivers can match the 7125's sound quality...

Advantages of the 997 over the R-972 (based on limited information currently available):

• balanced pre-amp outputs
• cost savings for someone who already owns separate amplification
• different support channel (unless you have a good local dealer who will take care of you, Outlaw's structure will typically be better for us average joes)

I'm one of a number of folks around here who has already invested in separate amplification (a Model 7500 and two Model 200's), so staying with a processor is very appealing for me. And folks who are just starting can buy a 997 with an amp like the 7075, 7125, or 7700 and expect the amp to last for many years - meaning that when they get the itch to upgrade the processor in a few years, they can keep the amp and just buy a new processor.

Yup..power amps stay current far longer than items like surround processors. I invested in a batch of Threshold power amps years ago and they are still going strong. Their sound is still as good as it gets as well.

I'm trying to recall how many surround processors I have gone through in the last 25 years...everything from an advent soundspace control, to a yamaha dsp 1, a Lexicon CP3, a marantz 870 dolby digital thing, plus some HK signature 2.0's... Down to my current Outlaw 990 and Integra 9.9 I think I'm forgetting one or two in that list as well.

Power amp technology is fairly mature while a surround processor is basically a computer ..and we all know how quickly today's latest and greatest computer becomes outdated.

My neighbor recently replaced a B&K 125W/Ref 20 system with Yamaha RX-Z11 $5K receiver. All I can say is that is the BEST testimony ever for separates. WHAT A PIECE OF CRAP. The sound is $#!^. He is trying to make it work...working on set ups but it is the harshest most fatiguing sound I have heard.

He has desroyed the BEST HT I ever saw!

While we're waiting...
Perhaps it's a good time to bone up on HDMI. GONK has a great link but it's a bit dated and does not mention the physical layer, the actual cable.

I've found this link to be very helpful in understanding why the HDMI interface is sometimes tempermental.

http://www.bluejeanscable.com/articles/hdmi-cable-information.htm

That is a good page - the HDMI cable certification/rating mess has come about over the last couple years, and I've never updated my FAQ with information about it.

I still have questions on the capabilities and limitations of hdmi cables...that link to the bluejeans cable site was very helpful. I am currently using a pair of 50 foot hdmi cables that are working perfectly between my HD cable box, my integra 9.9 processor and a 61" samsung tv.

I don't have a blu ray player yet so have never tried them with native 1080p, but they work fine with upconverted 1080p. These are the cables I bought for 35 bucks a piece or so.

50 foot HDMI cables

It's been about 6 months now since we first heard of the 997 and it's still not out. Sounds a bit weird to me.

^^^Have you read any of the info in this and other posts about the 997? It can't get here until after the Sherwood...

While it was nice that Outlaw gave us some prelim info 6 months ago about the upcoming new product, 6 months in the electronics world is a long time. Even in regards to televisions, new models (product lines) come out every year.....

I am one frustrated (and still patiently waiting) Outlaw customer. The tease is starting to become a little annoying.

But you have to recall, when Outlaw broke that news last fall they had been told the R-972 was due to launch before the end of 2008. They hedged their bets at the time of announcement, since delays are hardly unheard of, but that was still the plan at the time. The fact that the R-972 has gotten hit with another 4-5 months of delay since then is frustrating, and likely at least as much so for Outlaw as for you and me.

Let's not forget what happened with the Xbox360 and Play Station 3 launches. They bowed to consumer and market pressure, released before the products were debugged. It cost them millions. I am sure Outlaw can't afford that kind of gamble, and the consequences associated with a problem plagued product. I went through 4 Xbox360's before getting one that didn't fail to the red rings of death (now touching hinger to head). I don't like waiting for the 997, but will. As long as it is tried, proven, and problem free, it should be worth the wait.

As a reminder, the stability of the basic Newcastle 972 platform controls our release of the 997. The 972 will break new ground with Trinnov processing and we are all going to be sensitive to any glitches Newcastle might encounter. Such things are unavoidable. Actually, we are not aware of any processor (or for that matte A/V receiver) that has entered the market without encountering some teething issues.

So in a way, going second has its advantages. This was made clear to us when we launched the 990. While it was based on the Newcastle P-965, we were able to address a few shortcomings in their software operation. Some of our improvements were subsequently incorporated into the 965 production. So while we are all anxious to launch the 997, waiting for Newcastle 972 field results will only help to make our product better on launch.

Peter

Since the R972 still hasn't been released, I think we've still got a very long wait ahead of us for the 997.

I guess I need to stop driving myself crazy by checking the Sherwood and Outlaw (and Oppo) forums every day. Note to self: log off and don't check back again for at least six more months.

You may not need to stay away that long - if I were to make a SWAG today, I'd put it at under a month for the OPPO and a minimum of three months for the Outlaw.

Thanks for the update, Peter. My sympathies on the project. I'm sure you would have preferred to launch the new pre/pro before the daily news was filled with economic doom and gloom that discourages any kind of luxury purchase.

FWIW, I think your strategy is right on. I don't think I ever remember such a wide-ranging paradigm shift in consumer electronics as we're currently experiencing with HDTV, HDMI, HD disc, and the new audio codecs. Take your time and save yourself the after-market support bucks.

Does the fact that the owner's manaual for the R-972 is out there (gonk has the pdf) imply we may be getting closer? I would think (or hope) so!

It is promising. I haven't had time to read through the manual yet (working late this week, some this weekend, and likely some more next week), but a quick glance makes me suspect it's a draft that hasn't gone to the printers yet - there's a rear panel diagram with numbers on it but no corresponding list. Still, even a draft is a good sign for the 972's progress...

I would think that if its only a draft an April release of the R-972 would be difficult. They would still need to go to print and have it packaged with the units before they could ship it. I would think that would take some time. Let's hope it is a dated draft and the final is still being protected in secrecy!

Printers can move pretty fast these days - we can kick out a couple dozen sets of plans and specs (including 200+ 42x30 sheets and spec books that run upward of 1000 pages) in half a day. Even if it's not final, they could have it final and printed pretty fast.

Sounds good. From my dealings with printers over a decade ago the turnaround time was weeks, not hours.

Depending on the quantities involved, it's very easy today to print manuals on demand through some of the upper end Xerox copiers/printers. Virtually no turn around time involved at all using this method.

Remember all - patience is a virtue. I recall my impatience when waiting on the 950. At the time I had completed my “theater” including a big ol’ CRT projector. Not a rant
I could not wait the last month or so an ended up getting a receiver. That was in 2002. My, how home theater has changed since then. Folks be patient, I am sure the new processor will be a great unit.

I do not remember any mention of any type of integration with an Ipod. That would be nice also.

Does the Sherwood platform have that?

The rear panel diagram for the R-972 doesn't show anything that would seem to fit with an iPod dock.

Of course, there's also the universal dock, which costs $50 (comparable what most add-on docks cost for receivers that include support for a proprietary dock) and comes with a remote. All it needs is a free AV input...

There's a post from Alan Lofft over in the Axiom Forums that indicates a mid-May release for the Newcastle R-972.

Add 60 days and hopefully we'll see the 997 around mid-July?

Interesting. They must have run into some issues as I have email directly from Sherwood Newcastle's US sales guy that says "some time in April." I guess folks shouldn't be holding their breath waiting.

Best,

There's also the possibility that there's a difference between when Sherwood has them ready and when they reach specific distributors like Axiom.

Wow, I came back to this forum after being gone for the last several months and STILL no 997?? What are you kids waiting for. I sprang for a B & K Reference 70 which totally floored me. Sound leaves me speechless. It has its glitches yes but for those that can afford this mother...go for it. It's like taking 5-6 blankets wrapped tightly around your speakers with this compared to anything else on the market and of course including the Outlaw product to date. The Integra 9.9 is laughable. Please do yourselves a favor and test drive the b & K....what a difference. All the rest are toys.

The same thing they've been waiting for since they first mentioned the 997 back in October: the Sherwood R-972.

We're waiting for a great sounding HDMI prepro for $1,400 that has been debugged.

The Ref70 is an impressive looking piece of gear, but it looks to be at least twice the price of the Model 997 (street prices I found in a quick search were around $3,150 and I think the MSRP is around $3,800) and judging by some searching I did this morning it had a similarly delayed launch (mention of a planned January 2008 release followed by folks wondering in late September when it would arrive). Plenty of inputs, some interesting control capabilities, a Reon-based video processor, and I would expect very good sound quality, but it's in a different price range that should be accompanied by some associated benefits in performance. At that price point, you are starting to compete with the AVM40 and AVM50 just as much as you are with the Integra 9.9/Onkyo 886. At the same time, it doesn't appear to have on-board decoding of the new audio formats or any form of room correction, both of which will be offered by the Model 997.

oops!!!

I always find it odd that someone comes to a manufactures site's user forum and pushes a competitors product. Personally I think it's in poor taste. I can totally understand doing this at place like sound on sound or avsforum. Now if someone specifically asks for an alternative, okay... maybe.

As Gonk said, the 997 is at a different price point and some of us are loyal customers and are willing to wait. For me, there's no rush and I've owned B&K (507), it has a different sound, that's not for me. I'm happy with my current setup with the 990 and will buy the 997 a few months after it arrives. In the meantime I patiently wait for the 997.

July would be great. My birthday is in September and I know exactly what I will give myself. :p

almost sounds like a troll.....

I pop in every month or so to get the latest too...

me ... willing to wait.
Timing should be good w/ the new oppo BR-universal player going thru 2nd round of testing.

Later,
_Mark

The B & K 70 will have a "free" card update available to all owners which will allow all decoding.

I too loved the 990, thought it was the best out there for the money. then I tried the Integra 9.8 & 9.9...sounded better and a step up. The B & K just floored me and continues to. I know it's tacky to post here I suppose but it really is that good of a pre/pro. Like has been said, it literally sounds like you are unwrapping your speakers that have been dampened by many layers of blankets. Sound is crisp, frighteningly clear. The glitches are frustrating but firmware updates are slowing fixing that too.

I'm sure the 997 will sound great knowing the Outlaw folks.

I'm always a bit worried about future hardware updates to add features - nothing against B&K, but there have been so many times when promises like that have yielded nothing. Personally, though, I'm not terribly hung up on decoding. Get a good player that can decode for you, and it's taken care of.

Something in the Ref70's price range should sound better than an Integra or a 990. If budget permitted, I'd be quite content to try out a Ref70 or an Anthem. Personally, I found the Onkyo 885's sound to be surprisingly comparable to the 990's (the higher list price and inclusion of Audyssey offered potential for more significant improvements than what I got), which combined with a lot of extra bells and whistles and an interface that left something to be desired. My wife actively hates the 885, but I've been able to minimize the factors that contribute to her dislike and it's been useful for testing lately. She's already asking when we can go back to using an Outlaw processor, though...

Flat, noiseless, distortion-free sound should be found in all gear at all price points. A $1000 pre/pro can (and should) sound nearly identical to a $10,000 pre/pro. Achieving this is probably the easiest thing a manufacturer can do.

"Like removing several layers of blankets from your speakers"? If I wrapped several blankets around my speakers it would cut off all of the highs and most of the mids. Are we to really believe that this statement is more than hyperbole at its worst?

As someone who is interested in knowing more about the real alternatives out there, a little more objectivity would be greatly appreciated.

You would think so, but I've often found it to not be as true as it could be.

If you take that thinking a step further to a baseline image quality for LCD TVs, (or plasma vs plasma, etc.) all should have a baseline picture that should match other displays of that category. But manufacturers tend to "tweak" their product to set it apart from others on a comparison shelf. I imagine the same can be said for audio equipment.

I personally judge how flat an audio system is by comparing to my old Forté stereo rig, and I'm continuously amazed on how colored some newer "high-end" equipment sounds in comparison. The Outlaw amps and pre/pros have come the closest to matching my old rig than anything I have been able to A/B test.

And that's the main reason I'm here!

But I was not taking that thinking further and would not want to such an obviously unrelated comparison.

I'm talking only about the audio performance of a pre/pro: how it sounds.

Manufacturers learned how to get near-perfect sound from analogue devices decades ago. Digital stereo soon after the CD's introduction. Multi-channel soon after it appeared. Differences in sound (distortion, noise, and frequency response) should, and for all intents are, negligible. Yes there can be noticeable differences between devices in how signals get decoded and processed (soundstage, presence, depth, etc.) - depending on the mode - but the basic "sound" should be nearly identical. And certainly not so different as to conjure images of multiple layers of blankets wrapped tightly around one's speakers!

I'm really surprised that more people don't challenge such remarks. Otherwise we degenerate into audio voodoo land.

I am one to avoid snake oil and things being over-hyped myself, but different CD players sound different. Saying that digital signals have been 'mastered' is rather naive.... just like analog signals.

Dealing with analog signals may be mastered, but any turntable maker knows you have to put a ton of money into analog to make everything sensitive enough to pick up the information on the record.

In digital you can easily have sloppy amplification, regardless of up-sampling. Converting digital to analog can be very noise if there is a cheap OPAMP anywhere in the circuit.

Here is what I said in my last post:

"I'm talking only about the audio performance of a pre/pro: how it sounds."

lanion, with respect to your post, I will address it paragraph by paragraph:

"I am one to avoid snake oil and things being over-hyped myself, but different CD players sound different. Saying that digital signals have been 'mastered' is rather naive.... just like analog signals."

Are you saying that these different CD players sound different because of the pre/pro? Could you take two CD players that sound different, connect them to two different pre/pros, and through a blind listening test tell which pre/pro they are connected to? In a statistically significant way? I don't think I could.

Next paragraph.

"Dealing with analog signals may be mastered, but any turntable maker knows you have to put a ton of money into analog to make everything sensitive enough to pick up the information on the record."

I assume you meant cartridge manufacturer - and not turntable maker. If so let's say we have two pre/pros with but minute differences in any of the three sound properties that I listed (frequency response, noise, distortion), and assuming our cartridge manufacturer has spent his ton of money, are we likely to hear differences between those two pre/pros? Very minute - perhaps? Akin to wrapping a bunch of blankets around one's speakers (getting back to my original comment)?

Last paragraph.

"In digital you can easily have sloppy amplification, regardless of up-sampling. Converting digital to analog can be very noise if there is a cheap OPAMP anywhere in the circuit."

Again talking about pre/pros, can you name a single one that you have listened to, that was to your ears "very noisy" and which you knew was a result of a "cheap OPAMP." How was it "noisy?" Actual noise? Distortion? Inaccurate frequency response? Was it in a $1000 pre/pro (the bottom of the range that I used above) or in a $10,000 pre/pro?

It seems to me that with but the very rare exceptions, with all properly designed pre/pros, how it sounds, in terms of noise, distortion, and frequency response, should not be a concern. There can be screw-ups (take the hiss problems with the original Outlaw Model 950 as a good case in point) but I trust that any credible designer / manufacturer nowadays will be able to at least get the basic sound right. Yes I'm going to listen first to what I buy to make sure (and in the case of Outlaw at least get some form trial period / free return if I can't hear it before buying), but I'd be very surprised if what I heard from any pre/pro was anything but clean sound (or rather the lack of noticeable noise, distortion, or frequency irregularities) in comparison to any other pre/pro. There's many other things that could go wrong. Not to pick on such an obvious target, but the 950's DTS-ES bug is a good example.

And for the record, my Model 950 sounds great - which is what I would expect.

Mr. Mackwood, I have to ask if your comments about cartridges, and ignoring of differences among turntables, are based on personal listening experience. As for pre-pros, my personal experience has only been with different analogue preamplifiers (Dynakit PAS-3X, Adcom GTP500, and Outlaw 990). The Dyna unit was used with the Dyna Stereo 70 (no surprise there) but both solidstate units have been used with the Adcom GFA535 power amp, and the Outlaw is now driving a pair of nOrh Le Amp II monoblocks via a Yaqin tube buffer.

It certainly seems to me that I have heard differences in the sound, though I know perfectly well that it is impossible to rule out suggestion effects, short of a double-blind A/B comparison which virtually nobody is in a position to arrange - nor I think do most people really want to.

Once again, allow me to repeat: my comments were only relating to the sound of pre/pros. I was not at all commenting on turntables, or cartridges, or whatever else. That's another discussion altogether.

To summarize: regardless of the source (analogue or digital) getting the basic sound right in a pre/pro (ie. no noticeable noise, distortion, and flat frequency response over the audible range) should not be a challenge to today's designers and manufacturers of pre/pros, and this should hold true at all price points.

Yes they can sometimes mess up. But then it becomes very obvious - and obviously a design or manufacturing fault or defect which almost always gets quickly corrected (a la Model 950 hiss problem.)

There is much more that can go wrong (eg. firmware) or that distinguishes between models (eg. features) than the basic sound properties of a pre/pro.

As someone who will be purchasing a new (not made-in-China) unit within weeks to replace my Model 950, I'm looking first to its feature set. Because the unit at the top of my list right now is relatively new, I am seeking out comments and reviews about its functionality etc. (For example how does its implementation of room correction software compare to other units.) I have a lot of trouble accepting (and in fact don't accept) that there exists a huge differences in "sound" between these units. In fact I don't believe that I could hear any difference at all. And certainly not something as dramatic as what my speakers would sound like if I wrapped them in several blankets!

Does anyone else want to comment on their experiences hearing a difference in the sound of a pre/pro (as opposed to the source material, room acoustics, speakers, etc.)?

I absolutely agree with you Mr. Mackwood. By far the biggest factor in how a system sounds is the moving part - the speakers. The placement of these fine pieces of art is the magic of room correction and no electronic gizmo properly designed is going to outweigh the actual producer of the sound.

AVS Forum is saying June 6th arrival from China to Sherwood for first batch. Not sure how long quality control testing will take, but it sounds like they're looking at mid-July to be fully up to speed in terms of meeting demand. September delivery for the 997?

Of course, we've heard dates before, and who knows if anything will show up in the QC testing, but hopefully we'll start hearing something tangible real soon.

Good news over at the AVS Forums . According to Jeff, the first units are expected June 5th and a large shipment is expected at the end of June and he expects to be caught up with the R-972 demand by mid-July!

There's still some talk of ongoing QC testing to do. It's possible that they're doing something similar to what OPPO has done in the past: build a first batch once you feel sure you have the hardware locked in and get it shipped over from Asia, then sit on it while finalizing the firmware. You can then load the final firmware manually onto that first batch. It's tedious and takes some stateside labor, but it is still faster than waiting on final firmware to start building the batch and then waiting for it to sail across the Pacific.

Agreed! But it seems they have a "fast track" in mind if all back orders are expected to be filled by mid-July.

I'm afraid I couldn't wait and bought an Onkyo Pro 885 with the Audyssey room EQ set-up. Simply incredible performance difference from my old Sony ES set-up. Kal R. from Stereophile told me this would happen, but I didn't believe him until I installed the 885 in my HT. Loudspeakers and room acoustics are no longer the big drivers they used to be - the processor can easily level out differences between rooms AND the loudspeakers !!!

I didn't believe it either, but I will tell you it is true. Mr. Mackwood - the world has indeed changed - digital signal processing, applied intelligently, trumps everything else.

I am hopeful the Model 997 will do well - The Outlaws are a great company, but Onkyo is also putting out a great product at a very competitive price - I got my 885 for less than $ 1000 and the new 886 / Integra 9.9 has a street price of less than $ 1500.00 Trinnov will have to be significantly better than Audyssey to win many of these sales back.

Congrats again.

And again for the record, I have no doubt that the Audyssey system had a huge effect, and that there will exist very noticeable differences between it and other systems - like Trinnov. Other features (and proprietary surround modes etc.) can and will alter the sound considerably and very noticeably as well. However my comment that the basic sound properties (noise, distortion, and frequency response) should be identically-excellent for any properly-designed pre/pro, across all price points, stands.

Oops! Sorry, this was a duplicate post.

Dave K