Ok, I am semi new to HT I and making a HT out of my garage because I want one and thats whats available the space is small 11 x 17 I am thinking of a BenQ 8700 Projector.. that leaves me around $5000 for reciever/speakers... Before I started this project I thought I knew a lil bit about this stuff.. I now know I know SQUATT! Pre vs reciever and so on... Bose who at the begining was the bad boy on the block IMO now I know their for old people I would like to have 7.1 surround in this room... I looked at PSB and Polk LSI speakers... I really need some assistance here... Any of you that can give input to my project would be more than welcome PLEASE!!! I think I am going with the 950/7100 but not sure what i can get with whats left.. should I buy better electronics and less speakers or even it out... and if anyone is good at design the room is 11 wide and 17 deep with the door in the middle of the back wall... I will have a wall screen in the front at 100" dig. .. oh well please any input is welcome!! zstat@getmuddy.net .. thnx

Glad to have you here, Zdog. Don't underestimate the potential of your small space -- this recent article might interest you (a 10'x11' dedicated theater).

So you have a $5000 budget for electronics and speakers? Does that include a DVD player? I would suggest not skimping on the speakers -- they are a critical piece of the signal path, and cutting corners there can negate a lot of investments upstream. There are a number of good, reasonably priced brands available: Energy, Boston Acoustics, and Axiom all are well-represented here in the forum, just to name a few, and PSB and Polk are also certainly worth listening to. As much as possible, demo some of the speakers using your own listening material before deciding, because speakers can often boil down to a matter of personal taste. The 950/7100 combo will take $1675 including shipping, leaving you over $3000 for speakers, DVD player, and cabling. That budget should very easily cover a good 7.1 speaker set, a good player, some sort of power conditioner/surge protector (Brickwall, TrippLite, and Panamax are all regularly mentioned around here), a big batch of 12ga speaker cable to run through your walls, and the cabling needed to hook it all up (video to the BenQ, digital audio from DVD to pre/pro, analog audio for pre/pro to amp and for any other sources like DVD-Audio, SACD, or what-not).

Some other thoughts...
Pre/pro vs. receiver -- the pre/pro and amp separates route will allow you more flexibility in any future upgrades, which can be a very good thing.
DVD players -- there are a number of universal (DVD/DVD-Audio/SACD) players popping up. Pioneer has their entry-level universal player (the DV-563) priced under $200, Denon has a very nice-looking player (the DVD-2200) priced under $600, and Yamaha has a new entry coming in March (the DVD-S1500) that will retail for around $400. I'm contemplating the Yamaha myself, but will wait to see what initial reactions are.
Interconnects: Outlaw's PCA's and PSC's (and the new PSSV) are quite nice cables. The PDO optical (if you need one) is a no-brainer in my opinion -- a 1.8-meter optical cable as well built as their is tough to beat at two or three times the $20 they sell 'em for.
Speakers: I am still very happy with my Paradigm Reference speakers; after almost three years, they've become something of a fixture in my system. Recently, I used some Axiom speakers to expand to 7.1 without breaking the bank, and I feel that Axiom has some speakers that compare very favorably to the Paradigm Reference stuff at a price that would easily fit your budget. Both are somewhat typical Canadian speakers -- if when demoing speakers, you find that you like Paradigm and some of the other Canadian speakers, you might consider looking closely at Axiom. Since they only sell online, it is hard to get to listen to them before you buy.

------------------
gonk -- Saloon Links | Pre/Pro Comparison Chart | 950 Review

Zdog:
If I may add to what gonk has outlined here, it will be DIY projects. If you don’t mind some soldering and light assembling, you can get yourself some high quality speakers and IC cables at average price or even lower.
http://www.madisound.com/
http://ubb.outlawaudio.com/ubb/Forum14/HTML/000069.html
I have the above two (and other DIY stuff) and I’d highly recommend them especially for the budget you are working with.

Good luck and keep us posted.

You are in a perfect position to avoid a lot of mistakes and in the right place for advice IMHO. There are people here with a lot of knowledge to share. I’m no expert but I’ll take a shot at helping you out. The first thing I’d recommend would be that whatever brand of speakers you choose make them identical. In other words don’t put big towers up front (a lot of people do this for the look) and then put smaller surrounds in the back. Even if they are voice matched to each other you will notice a difference when the sound pans around the room. You may want to make an exception for the center because of size issues(I did) but the rest should be the same speakers. I would also recommend 2 subwoofers instead of 1. This serves to cancel the standing wave effect and makes the sound a lot less directional. So far I’ve heard nothing but good things about the LFM 1 Outlaw sub and the price is hard to beat. Hope this helps

Lasher

so your question is better speakers or better electronics? that is always tough as they typically go hand in hand. if either is poor the overall performance will suffer. typically a speaker has the most impact on how something sounds, while a processor must have the desirable inputs/outputs and processing capabilities. that is not to say that two processors with the same specs/electronics will put out the same sound... but if you pick two processors to compare with very similar specs they will sound more similar than two speakers with same specs... i guess that is a round-a-about way of saying that i would make sure i get speakers that i like, as long as my processor has at least the minimum features that i want. (features including all electronic components!) then your decision is pre/pro and amp or receiver. gonk points out that a pre/pro and amp is more easily upgraded, and he is correct in the sense that you can retain your amp, but keep in mind that a new pre/pro is not cheap. if you are into a high end system (and cost) then pre/pro with amp is best because you can afford to spend the bucks on a new processor, if not then receivers may be better because you can usually sell them more easily and then purchase a new one. however receivers are usually never upgradeable while some processors are (so they can outlast a receiver). getting a pre/pro and amp requires more cabling. having said that most discriminating people would not choose a receiver. id buy speakers, processor/amp, source (dvd, etc.), power conditioning, cabling, furniture for your equipment, and then extras like remotes, room acoustics, etc. in that order of importance usually. if you put a bigger investment in your speakers you can feel safer because they are not as technologically driven as a processor; therefore, they wont need to be replaced for a long time. i hope this helps prioritize your buying, i didnt give any specific brands (buy what you like), but you are at least on the right path (being here) and good luck. be sure to demo as much as you can before you buy it or get a good return policy.

[This message has been edited by curegeorg (edited January 21, 2004).]

I would disagree with that, towers are good for the front because they handle music for movies and need to be full range. The rears can be smaller because they are effects which are not typically as musical. The most important speaker in your system is your center (dialog), then your sub (bass :-)), then fronts, then rears. i also disagree that two subs is always better than one (as i have talked about in other threads), but i do agree that every speaker except for the sub should be made by one company (for timbre matching, etc.) a lot of times companies that make good speakers make bad subs, polk who you were thinking about is one that has good speakers but their subs should only be used as coffee tables.

Zdog:
One more thing, the quality of subwoofer plays a big role in home theater. Again, with little bit of assembling, you can get yourself a very good subwoofer for less than $600 here http://www.acoustic-visions.com/~acoustic/products/subwoofers/complete_kits/ I have a Shiva subwoofer and I couldn’t be happier.

I guess my statement came out wrong. I never said don’t use towers. If you like towers then use all towers and if you like bookshelf speakers then use all bookshelf speakers. It just makes for a more smooth transition from one speaker to the next if all the speakers are the same IMHO. As far as the use of 2 subs I will agree that you can make one very good sub sound great but finding that perfect placement in a room to achieve that result can be very hard (extra hard for someone new to the hobby).I will have to disagree with your order of importance list though. Acoustic treatment should always come first. Most people don’t give a thought to the acoustics of there room and just set there equipment up in what ever room is available (typically the living room.) People try to make a dead room sound great by using high priced gear and end up spending and upgrading constantly looking for that perfect sound. Most of them could solve there problem just by small adjustments to the design and shape of the room. 2x4s and sheetrock are a lot cheaper than equipment.

Lasher

Here's how I would start with this project:

1) Design the layout for the room. Since you're basically starting from scratch, I would look around the net at other's home theaters and decide which look (and/or looks) you like the best. Then, figure out seating, lighting, HVAC, and acoustical treatments first. You might also want to look into creating an equipment closet to try to isolate equipment sounds from the room. Once this stuff is in place, you can move onto the actual purchasing of electronics, speakers, and the like.

2) Figure out your budget. Here's one possible breakdown of your 5 grand:

950/7100 = $1700
DVD player = $500
Speaker Set-up = $1500
Room materials = $1100
Cables and the like = $200


3) Now that you have your basic room design and budget in place, you can start looking at speakers. Look at what type of speakers, be it bookshelf monitor, floor standers, in-walls work best in your room design. The above advice about trying to stay within the same manufacturer of speakers is very good advice. That will give you a very coherent soundstage across the entire room. If you can fit 5 full range speakers into the design, by all means go for it. However, this usually isn't all that pratical. I would stick with floor standers for the mains, a good center channel, bookshelf monitors for the surrounds, and, if possible, bipolar surrounds for the rears. This combination should give you the best mix for your budget. The only upgrade from that is to replace the surround bookshelf speakers with another pair of floor standers.

My opinion with the great stereo subwoofer debate is to go WITH stereo subs. Low bass is a little more directional that most will say and the stereo subs will fill out your mains very nicely. A sub is for more than just the rumble. A good 10" sub will more than adequately add to almost any floor standing speaker. If you want rumble, you might want to look into tactile transducers for that job.

The best advice for which speaker company is to go out and listen to everything you possibly can that hopefully fits into your budget. Pick out your favorite CD and try to play it on everything. Listen also on the high-end systems as they can tell you what you may or may not be missing from any of the lower end gear. Internet speaker companies are nice for price and most do give trial periods. If you willing to put up with the speaker shuffle, they're definitely an option especially in your price range. If you are of the creative type, there are some really nice DIY kits out there also.

4) Set-up everything and enjoy!

Hope this helps. As mentioned before, this is just one way of doing things. Good luck!!

Thanks for all the good advice... Ok new questions Taking Gonk's advice I am looking at Axion spealers. They have a theater builder there http://www.axiomaudio.com .. I am gonna go with the Outlaw Comb... 950/7100 and heres the speaker lay out they recomend... What do u think? Front M60 ,Center VP150 , Surround QS8 , Sub EP350 , Rear Surround QS8 ... anything you would change here? My problem is that I live 2 miles past BFE and there are no real HT dealers around other than places like Best Buy and Circut City.. So I am goin with you folks recomendations No Presure... Thanx again Z

I think you'll do pretty well with the Axioms. They do offer the in-home trial period so you can try them out. Remember to leave some space between your mains and your front wall as they are rear ported speakers. If you don't, you end up with a real boomy sound. (I tried out one of the Axiom bookshelf models and that was its only downfall. I didn't have the space in the room to get it out from the wall far enough) Those QS8 surrounds have gotten some really great reviews. The only change would be that you might want to try out different subs before going with the Axiom version. It's a good sub, but more highly recommended ones do exist for about the same money. If you can do the package without the sub, you should be pretty well off. Look forward to hearing about your experiences....

Note: Don't forget about the room!! It's really that important to your overall experience. For example, if your room is nice and rectangular as you described it, watch out for those standing waves!!

Zdog:
I looked at the spec of Axiom’s subwoofers. They seem kind of weak compare to Adire Audio’s subwoofers like Shiva and Tempest which the kits can be bought for just about the same price. You may get all Axiom speakers but I’d recommend getting Adire’s sub and timbre match is not an issue for subwoofers. Check out the difference in the weight. It tells the quality of the enclosure which matters a lot for subwoofers.
http://www.adireaudio.com/home_audio/loudspeakers/exact_series/rava.htm

Standing Waves?? Oh damn another chapter to the sega... I see I need to attened room prep 101 Lil better idea of the room.. It is 11 x 17 with the door in the back right of the room. These screen will be on the other 11' wall there is no light in the room.. As it is a former 1 car garage... It has dry wall walls and popcorn ceiling ... Also, What other Subs would you recomend? Thanx Z

I use two Infinity subs as stereo in my setup. The IL100 and IL120 (10" and 12") have held their own in sound and vision testing against the other subs of similar price and they are available as refurbs with full warranties as new on ebay sold direct by Harman Audio, the manufacturer, here is one example:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3073399485&category=3275

They end up going for $300-$450 when the bidding is done.

Zdog,

Welcome and just wanted to throw my 2 cents in. I am currently running the polk LSi 15's in front, and the LSi C for the center. These are great speakers, and I would Highly recomend them. The problem, they will set you back a little and may bust your budget. The other down side to the LSi series, is that they can be a little tough to find a place to audition them. If you can hear them near you, you should really go hear them. With speakers, you need to buy what sounds good to you, in your listening environment.

If you do end up going with the LSi's make sure that you get an amp / processor that will drive them. They are 4 ohm speakers. so....the 7100 or 770 will be more than enough.



[This message has been edited by Nemos2 (edited January 21, 2004).]

Your paralell walls will cause certain frequencies to compound themselves causing "standing waves." If nothing is done to treat them, it will sound either boomy or glaring or both in your room to the excess of these frequencies. The best way to treat this would be to put some type of material on your walls to either absorb or diffuse these "waves." Two pro companies that sell this type of product and also can give you much more information about acoustics are:

www.auralex.com
www.realtraps.com

Both these websites offer very useful information about setting up good listening rooms.

One other question on a semi-related topic. Have you thought about a screen for your projector? Good home theater screens can be really expensive. You can try the DIY route to save some money. Do a search on this website for more info and projects:

www.avsforum.com

Good luck!

Just thought I'd chime in on the discussion. Jason J threw out some budget numbers and the only thing I'd offer a differing opinion with is spending $500 on a DVD player right now.

The Pioneer all format player that Gonk mentioned earlier seems like a great choice to start out with, especially with Hi-Def DVD being about 2 years away. (Click HERE to read a good article about the competing formats.) The Pioneer is going for around $180 and then he can put the extra $320 into speakers. Actually, he may need to budget more than $200 for cables and such if he's going to have a projector, he may need longer runs of Component cables.

You can also go HERE and then click the link to 'Home Theater Design Guides' for some more info you may find useful.

My two cents for what they're worth.

[This message has been edited by kugumby (edited January 23, 2004).]

i do not like 5.25in woofers in my speakers, i notice that the center (and almost all the other speakers) is 5.25in. for the life of me i cannot understand why they put 5.25in in anything instead of just using 6.5in. i do not mind 5.25 in combo with 6.5, but still its pretty much a waste. the only sub i would buy is a velodyne, but i think they may be too much for your budget. i would not recommend those qs8s as the rear surround, those speakers should be a traditional bookshelf style instead of multi-polar, the sides are perfect for that though. those axioms are going to be a huge part of your budget (probably too much) if you dont get a package price, but that includes that sub. i havent shopped for speakers in a while, but those axioms are not the most impressive. however i cant offer any insight as to what would be better :-), i dont understand why so many websites do not show pricing...
oh, the best dvd player for the money is the denon dvd910, $300. however it does not offer sacd or dvd-audio support, so if you wanted that then youd have to get another model. denon seems to make about the best dvd players you can purchase these days. i would not spend too much on a dvd player as it will be obsolete pretty soon. that pioneer 563a is a piece of junk, and while i am a fan of pioneer elite they have NEVER made a good dvd player.

its exciting to put together a system, but its also nice to be content with what you have :-). like i said before i would not spend much of my inital $5000 on room decorating, you can always add stuff later and it is pretty overrated and overpriced anyway.

kugumby: Your suggestion sounds pretty good. I bought the cheapest SACD player of the day (Sony DVP-NS500V about $160) and it still serves my system very nicely. There are nicer players out there but it worked fine in my situation as a good intro to SACD plus a decent interlaced player.
The budget numbers I put out there were just a quick suggestion. There's no way that any of them shouldn't change at least a little bit one way or another.

cg: I continue to disagree with the way you state your opinions on room expenditures. Allotting some budget to acoustics should not be an afterthought, but really should be a priority. Especially in the room that was brought up to start this topic. Of course, the amount of money spent on room materials should correspond to the rest of the person's budget. If you read a little before jumping, you'll find that both sites I listed offer products that in the end won't break the budget and will certainly calm down a home theater. I would also love to hear the stories you have about overrated and overpriced acoustical treatments as I'm curious as to which products you speak of. Just like any marketable item, there are products out there that are more pychological than anything else. If it is these products you speak of, then I do agree with your comments.

Just one little aside. IMHO, I wouldn't put down any speaker system until I heard it with my own two ears. I've heard some amazing systems that down feature speakers with 6.5 inch drivers.

Ok, I had to recalculate the room size due to the SHEDEVIL and her laundery room... Actually its my fault but we will pretend its hers the room soze is only 11 x 15.5... Ok question number one... Will the 950 do everything that a, say High end Denon would do in regards to surround sound.. 2. Should i go with the 1st considered 7.1 config. ? And you say the SQ8 is no good for what I need? Sorry for all the questions but I really wanna do this right.. Cause sooner or later my wife is gonna relize I ain't worth it Thanks again Z

Answers:

1) Yes, the 950 will give you all the appropiate decoding needed for any home theater application. DD and DTS for regular 5.1, DD-EX and DTS-ES for 6.1, Cirrus Processing for 7.1, plus others I'm sure I'm forgetting. In other words, yes, it will work fine.

2) Since you have the ability to do so, run your wiring for future speakers now. That way if you want the upgrade, you don't have to worry about messy, exposed wiring runs or thinking about ripping open finished walls.

I think the above is what the questions was asking. If the question was asking wether the 950 can handle 7.1, the answer is yes! The two rear surrounds are preferred as compared to 6.1 sound.

3) If I'm remembering correct, I think the QS8 will work fine for your surround needs. They are considered dipolar speakers but also have some very direct tendencies. I think what curious was responding to was the fact that many people recommend a pair of direct radiating surround speakers as opposed to a dipolar pair. In reality, it truly depends on your usage of the system, speaker placement, and personal preference. I would say start with the package for now and then if you feel like upgrading or tweaking, try out some direct radiators at that point.

Hope this helps! If your wife is anything like my girlfriend, she'll realize the value of a good home theater system very quickly. Just make sure you listen to her input for movie selections.

i was talking about the sq8 or qs8 or whatever it is as the rear surround, they are fine for 4th and 5th channels, but as 6th and 7th a direct radiating is TYPICALLY better.

i will stick by my statement about 5.25in woofers, and why, because i dont like them!!! :-) that is not to say that they are junk, but if you had 5.25s and replaced them with 6.5s then youd not be disappointed.

its been a long time since i could remember what kind of room treatments i invested in, and room treatment is still at the bottom of my list.