Well I finally did it and ordered a B-Stock Outlaw 7700 amp and the bundle of 7 balanced interconnects.

Also went to Magnolia's yesterday and got a B&K 200.7 clearance item, so I have something to audition the Outlaw against.

They had to get the 200.7 from another store so sent me home with a 200.5.

Interestingly the slight high frequency hiss (you have to put your head right next to the speakers to hear it) that is coming from all speakers is still there, which leads me to believe that it's an issue with the preamp and not the amp as I first thought.

So far the B&K is a small improvement over the old Kenwood. Even though wattage is rated at twice the Kenwood, it doesn't push out more DB (then again it's loud enough to be unbearable at reference level which is probably loud enough, methinks). It does seem to be less pinched, have higher bandwidth when played wide open.

Anyhow, better end this before my better half chops my head off.

More to come.

Cool beans, the amp is coming from California and is scheduled to arrive on Thursday the 8th and the PCB balanced cables are set to arrive on Saturday.

Can't wait.

I also pick up the B&K 200.7 tonight.

Going to be fun to compare the two amps.

please keep a post.i just bought a 7500 and was seriosly lookin at the b&k 200.5.i would greatly appreciate your feedback.i just hooked up the 7500 and didn't have much time to listen to it.im using my onkyo 805 as a preamp w/polk lsi15 and center w/ads surrounds(i cant afford the matching rears for awhile)thanks and have fun. Brian

Will do. I saw that it made it to Portland so I should definitely have the amp tomorrow barring some issue.

Well the amp came in around 3:00pm here today.

My girlfriend remarked that she's guessing that I'll be keeping the Outlaw as she has no idea how we'd ship it back as it's so heavy.

First impressions so far...it's heavy. It's put together very well. The pictures on the website don't do it justice. I think for contrast sake they make the units looks gray on the website so you can see the various details of the unit.

It's not gray however, but basic black, which is fine by me. I'd classify the looks of the piece as understated...Kind of like a secret service agent in a dark suit packing a concealed submachine gun is understated, hehe.

Oh and for all those worried about getting B stock items from the Outlaws, you don't have to worry. This item arrived fully boxed and as far as I can tell is in perfect "like new" condition. No scratches, nothing. No issues.

Terminals are top notch. My banana plugs and RCA connectors fit on them well. No complaints there.

The thing is heavy, so if you have to mount it on a shelf other than very bottom, you will need help to lift it. I just put it on the bottom right of my Salamander Triple Thirty and it fit perfectly into the space previously occupied by my old Kenwood amp.

One other thing about the appearance of the unit. Those big feet aren't just there for show. The amp has air openings on the top and bottom to allow for good airflow to cool the thing. Haven't seen how hot it gets yet, but you'd probably need a fan or something to move air around it if you put it in an enclosed rack or cabinet.

When I calibrated my preamp with the B&K 200.5, I didn't have to make huge changes to the levels on any of the channels. With the Outlaw 7700, I had to readjust all channels down like 6 or 7 db. I think this is just a matter of the gain they have the amp's input set to.

Noise floor with this amp seems to be comparable to the B&K. With preamp full on (+18db) and and a null input selected (input with nothing selected) both amps output about 67-68db of noise when measured from an inch away from the tweeter of all speakers.

I have the Radio Shack digital SPL meter and it doesn't go below 50, so I had to do the measurements that way. This is fine though as it is used for my own personal comparisons and the measurements are taken in a consistent way.

For reference, the Kenwood 6 x 100watt amp measures about 65 db using the same method.

At reference level all 3 amps measure below 50 so more detailed info there cannot be given.

As for how each amp sounds, all three are pretty much transparent as far as I can tell. They all pretty much present the sound as it's delivered to them, although I think the Outlaw and the B&K are better able to keep up when played at or near reference level when watching stuff like the Matrix lobby shooting spree scene.

Music wise I haven't really noticed much of a difference between either amps, although both of the new amps seem to have a bit better steering and separation of channels than the Kenwood, which is pretty much what you'd expect.

Oh one last thing. The Outlaw seems to have a bit softer of a startup than the B&K, although the Outlaw does make a buzzing noise for maybe the first 30 seconds that it is turned on. It's not very loud and as I said goes away. It also might have a slight hum when it is turned on, but it's very slight.

The B&K does not exhibit either issue but does start up a lot harder making the lights in the house dim a bit as a result.

I think that's it for now. Will have more to report when I get the balanced cable bundle on Saturday.

Cheers!

One more thing to report.

The hum coming from the amp (this is not being imparted to the speakers but is humming noise coming from the amp itself) is a bit louder than the B&K and is always there, even when the system has warmed up a bit.

How loud is it? You can hear the hum even with the XBox 360 on (with no disk spinning).

Is it noticeable when the system is playing music or a movie? Not really, but it is there nonetheless.

Anyone else have a 7500 or 7700 that makes a noticeable humming noise?

My 7500 is in an enclosed cabinet, but I've not noticed it making any noise when I've got the cabinet door open. I'll give a closer listen this weekend.

Thanks Gonk.

Unfortunately, I do not have the budget at the moment to add the doors, sides and extended backs to my Salamander to enclose it.

Plus considering how much heat my prepro, amp and XBox 360 generates, I'm not sure it would be a good idea.

I have my 7700 in an open Salamander rack too. I haven't noticed any sound coming from it either. I'll check it out closer too.

Rick

Edit: I have balanced interconnects between the 990 & 7700 (if it matters).

Many times transformer buzz can be caused by a dirty AC power voltage. In many cases a filter (to remove DC components) can resolve this issue.

Yup, I sent a support request to the Outlaws and they recommended running an extension cord to a different outlet to see if that helps the issue.

So I have to make a trip to Target to do this.

Will let you all know how that works out.

I just opened the cabinet and took a listen to my 7500, which has been on for almost half an hour. When I laid my ear onto the top of the cabinet, I could hear a faint transformer hum, but my ear had to be essentially touching the cabinet for it to be audible at all.

Yeah, I'm either going to have to get with Outlaw support to get a unit or just return the one I have for a refund.

I haven't heard any difference between the Outlaw and the B&K 200.7 so the annoying hum is currently the only real big differentiator between the two.

Thanks for checking your amps to see how much the power supplies were buzzing.

I agree that either there's a power issue (voltage too high/low, etc.) or a problem with your unit's transformer. See what Outlaw can offer and let us know what amp you end up with.

Yeah, going to work through Outlaw support to get a replacement unit and see how that works out.

I seriously doubt that it's a voltage issue as my Panamax Max 1000's voltage meter is reading solid green and none of the other amps in my system are exhibiting the same issue, but I could be wrong.

Well the Outlaw support guys (thanks Edward) have shown why their support is highly talked about in the community.

They are sending me out a new unit. Now I just need to wait for the return ship label to send the amp I have back to them. Ought to be fun making that walk to the Fedex depot, hehe...not.

Too bad that to do an A/B amp right you have to do it heavy.

Just got the "invoice" for the new amp.

What's really cool about all this is that they didn't charge me shipping either way.

That's what I call good service.

Now I just hope that the new amp doesn't have the same issue.

Got the new amp on Monday. I let it equalize temperature/humidity for half a day as it was sitting in Fed Ex truck in cold & wet Beaverton area for most of the day.

Was well packed just like the previous amp.

Unfortunately, just like the previous amp the transformers are humming noticeably. I do notice that it gets better or worse depending on what else in the HT is on, but it never goes away and is always loud enough to be heard from my sitting position.

This isn't one of those "have to put ear up to the amp to hear it" kind of hums.

I guess the big question is if it's worth having an electrician come out and run a couple of dedicated circuits for the home theater. I'd be pretty annoyed if this didn't resolve the humming issue entirely.

So I'm left with choosing the B&K 200.7 which doesn't make any noise, but perhaps isn't as rock solid of a design and puts out more heat or choosing the Outlaw 7700 that is a heavier design but has issues with humming transformers.

And perhaps I should get dedicated circuits run to the HT anyhow, but it's an expense that I didn't want to deal with right now.

Question still remains whether or not that would resolve the issue.

Any thoughts?

Ordinarily, I'd be embarrassed to admit how many electronic devices I have sharing a single circuit. However, since it may help you, my 7500 is absolutely quiet and it's sharing a single 15A circuit with a LOT of equipment in two rooms.

I'd have an electrician look at the circuit or do some DIY testing if you're confident you won't kill yourself. Determine if you have a good ground. Check the polarity of the outlet. Check for high enough (or too high) voltage. Some equipment is more sensitive to voltage irregularities, miswire conditions, etc.

A simple voltage meter may tell you a lot.

- Jason

How do you determine if you have a good ground? If I had a bad ground wouldn't my UPS note this as a ground fault?

How do you check polarity of the outlets?

Also according to the voltage display on my Panamax Max 1000+ line conditioner wattage is just under 120.

This whole thing kind of makes me think that they had to compromise on the quality of the transformers they used in the 7700 to keep the build cost down. Shows why a lot of amp companies use one very well shielded transformer instead of two less shielded ones. Also shows why Lexicon builds power conditioning circuits right into their amps and why they are so expensive.

Unfortunately, there is no noticeable performance difference between the B&K and the Outlaw, in which case I'm leaning towards returning the Outlaw and keeping the B&K.

Since the B&K does not have this issue.

I have a few questions and comments about this...
Did you try another outlet (without the panamax)?
Is the unit in close proximity to anything else?

If you are serious about the sound, a dedicated circuit is a GREAT investment. I put one in myself before I got my units, so I do not know what they sound like without it. I do not use a power conditioner, just an inexpensive surge protector (read power strip). I had thoughts of buying one before I heard the system, but it is dead silent, so I didn't want to mess that up.

The reason that I asked the first question is because there is one circuit (room) in my house that buzzes any equipment I plug in (guitar amp, stereo). I suspect a bad ground, but have not fully investigated. This is isolated only to that room.

Also, your panamax should not report a ground fault for a faulty ground.

The amp is on the same circuit as several lights, and all the HT stuff.

It makes a noticeable hum regardless of where I plug it in. Currently have it plugged in through 20' extension cord to a plug near to the kitchen, unfortunately there is no well isolated circuit within reach of the amp.

It's just disappointing really. I've been wanting the Outlaw amp for quite a while and now that I've gotten it and a replacement, both with humming transformers where a "brick and mortar" amp doesn't.

Once again the Outlaw support team continues to shine.

They are sending me out a DC power filter to help troubleshoot the issue.

Also have an electrician coming out on Monday to give me a quote on adding a couple of discrete circuits for the HT.

For some reason, whether rational or irrational, I'm willing to work a bit to keep the Outlaw amp.

I had the same issue with my 7500. I never could get it fixed. I now live in a different apartment and it no longer makes that hum

I had the transformer hum problem with an Aragon 8008X3 amp. The diagnosis: DC coming in over the cable connection. A Jensen isolation transformer provided the fix.
If you haven't tried it, disconnect all inputs to the amp and see if the hum persists.

I'm using balanced cables to go between the prepro and the amp.

Doesn't this theoretically protect me from power issues coming from the inputs?

We'll see what happens when I get the DC filter they are sending me.

Blogging ITGuy,
Balanced XLR connectors have three pins: signal+, signal- and shield. The shield is probably a ground from your preamp which is connected to the ground from everything connected to the preamp. Simple test: turn off the amp, disconnect the XLR's, turn on the amp and see if the transformer is quiet.

Interesting...so with no inputs/outputs plugged into the Outlaw it's more quiet but still giving out an audible hum...until I turn on the 360 which is on the same power circuit and then it starts humming quite a bit more loudly.

But it never quiets down to where you can't hear it at listening position when the room is quiet...which quite frankly is not what I expect from a a piece at this price point.

Will have to wait and see what difference, if any, the DC filter makes.

The XLR should help against ground loops, but this is different than DC on AC. Since electric companies don't worry about the quality of the electricity you can have this problem. It is also less obvious since most electronics like computers, etc... use a switching power supply that doesn't care about that issue.

Analog power supplies can have an issue with it though. I've seen the scope view of DC spikes on a AC power line, and I've heard about it being fixed by a basic capacitor filter box.

Had an electrician over today to give me quote on getting dedicated circuits run.

He quoted me $350 for running two separately grounded 20 amp circuits from the panel to the home theater.

Seems like a decent price.

Probably a good idea to do it regardless of which amp I choose.

I have a 7700 and it's dead silent! In fact that is one of the reasons I went with Outlaw, no fan. I did have a bad ground-loop hum problem that was caused by my overhead lights but that problem disapeared when I moved it to another circut.

That is really strange, the 7700 is a quality amp and it should not be doing that. I am curious to see what those dedicated lines do, I have been thinking about doing that myself, would be great to have regardless.

Yeah, I'm having it done. The electrician had some free time come up tomorrow morning so he's doing the job then.

So we'll know soon enough if dedicated circuits fix the problem of the humming transformers or not.

Here's one question that I have...should the 7700 be by itself on one circuit, or can the Monster sub towers that I have go on the same circuit?

The 7700 would do well to be on a single circuit by itself, as in theory it could consume all of the current available in the circuit. In reality, I would be stunned to see a real-world case where the 7700 were driven to a point where that actually happened - you could most likely put the sub towers on the same circuit and be fine.

Thanks Gonk. I was more concerned about noise coming into play when putting them on the same circuit.

Yeah, I can't see a situation where the 7700 would go to full load for even the smallest moment, at least not with my speakers.

Thinking of leaving the Xbox 360 on the same lamp circuit that it's on now though. If it's dumping enough noise or whatever into the circuit to make the 7700 hum louder, wonder how it's affecting the other equipment as well.

Electrician came and installed the two circuits today. Yep, the Outlaw hum is barely audible now when I'm right next to it...at least for now.

Odd thing is that it still complains a bit when the SXRD TV comes on even though they are no longer on the same circuit. Wonder what that's all about.

It also appears that my total system distortion levels have dropped 1 or 2 db now that the HT is on separate circuits from everything else.

Glad to hear that the circuits are in and working well for you.

Keep in mind that those circuits all terminate at the same point (the electrical panel). You can see the effects of a slight, brief dip in current when a device on a different circuit draws a large inrush current on start-up (mostly if the circuits in question share a common leg). That's likely why you noticed that little "complaint" when the TV started up.

It appears now that the amp only hums significantly when everything else is off but it is on.

I'm still waiting for them to ship me out the DC filter.

Got the DC filter (actually a PS Audio Humbuster) and hooked it up to the amp with nothing else on that circuit.

The 7700 still was making a hum audible from my listening position.

So after all that, I decided to just return the Outlaw and keep the B&K.

For those who can put the 7700 in a closed cabinet, the transformer noise isn't an issue, but I don't see myself ever doing that with my Salamander rack, particularly since I have my vertical center channel in the rack.

At this point I was just too sensitive to the hum of the amp (although my girlfriend also hears it, so it is there) whereas the B&K is dead quiet from the listening position.

Since there was very little difference in price (about $150 less for the Outlaw since it was B-Stock) as the B&K is a demo clearance model (with full 5 year warranty, same as the Outlaw) and otherwise no real difference in performance, I'm keeping the B&K.

Would I live with the hum of the Outlaw if I couldn't get a quieter amp for the same price? Not sure, but I don't think it's something that we should have to live with in a piece at this price point.

I grudgingly accept that the Xbox 360 is noisy at the $400 price point, however, I'd gladly pay another $400 for a quieter 360, but at $2000, mechanical noise is not something I was prepared to put up with.

Oh and Outlaw support in general and Edward specifically has been great through all this.

Thanks for everything guys.

At least now I have a nice set of Outlaw balanced cables. Absolutely no complaints there!

My 7700 is on the bottom shelf of my two shelf high rack. I listened again last night. With my ear as close to the front of the amp as I could get, I could not hear any noise (hum or otherwise). I have 2 dedicated circuits but I don't remember exactly which way I plugged everything in. I think the subs are on one circuit (1000 watts rms each) and everything else is on the other. The satellite receiver and/or the PSP3 may be on the sub amp circuit - I don't think it matters for this discussion.

Definitely odd, as my 7500 is also silent, and I don't have it on a dedicated circuit. At least BloggingITGuy had a good option to fall back on...

Yep, I don't know if ATI has started to use lower quality transformers or has a bad batch or it was why these were B-Stock amps in the first place or what.

I really wanted to like the Outlaw more than the B&K, but was, in the end, unable to live with the "mechanical" noise produced by it.

Transformer noise can be a problem. I have two 2200 m-blocks and one of them hums when it gets warm but foutunatly it is not bad. My 7500 is dead quiet, knock on wood. One thing that aggravates the problem with the 7500/7700 amps is both transformers are located directly behind the front panel.
Too bad you had that problem because the 7500/7700 are great pieces of equipment.

butchgo, we have almost the exact system. Do you bi amp your mains or do you have separates for all your speakers? I am considering letting my pre/pro powering my rears and letting the 7500 power my outdoor speakers.

Well, now that I look again, not so much the same. Oh well.

I have my mains and center channel bi-wired.
The 2200's are driving the mains and the 7500 is driving the center channel and all of the surrounds. I have it set up this way so when I am listening to two channel music the 7500 is not being used. Can I ask why you would use the 7500 for outdoors speakers? It seems that an amp of this quality should be used for your home theater system and use a smaller less expensive amp for the outdoor speakers. I bought an Audio Source AMP100, 50W per channel, for my deck speakers but haven't hooked it up yet. This was like $90.00 with the shipping. I am going to use zone two for the deck.

Yeah, I have not decided on the outdoor speakers and the 7500. It is a long speaker run, so I had hoped the extra power would help. I do like the 7500 powering all of my speakers though...it too cold outside any way. Dont have to make that call yet. I would like to find a less expensive two channel amp, but I have not had alot of luck. Thanks for the info on what you use.

What sort of outdoor speakers are you using? There are some inexpensive stereo amplifier options around that might be a good fit for outdoor speakers if they aren't too difficult a load to drive or you don't want too high a volume.

Meat,
The AudioSource AMP 100 I got off of Amazon.com.
Parts Express also sells them.
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/pshowdetl.cfm?&Partnumber=302-601
It's been to cold up here to mess with the outdoors speakers too.

If you just want a simple amp for outdoor speakers then just find a used receiver. I personally have a few laying around, but I'm sure many people do, or they could be gotten for about $50 or so and that gives you input choices also. Or use a T amp if you have efficient speakers.

On the original thread, it was interesting to note the poster got to try the PS Audio Humbucker unit, although it didn't completely fix the issue enough.

I use Polk Artium 55 speakers on the patio. I think they are pretty easy to drive. Thanks for some of the contact info.

Hey, I think there is a guy on the Polk Audio forum from McKinney Tx like you. His name is Russ

Thats funny, I am always on that one too.

I just posted a review of my experiences trying out both amps on my blog at http://itmanager.blogs.com/notes/2007/12/200-watt-home-t.html

I was as positive about the Outlaw as I could be without watering down the humming transformer issue.

Alex, did you work with Andy, at Beaverton Magnolia, when you purchased your B&K? He's quite knowledgeable and a good guy. I've picked up several items (ML speakers, 2 channel B&K amp, M&K surrounds) over the years from him.

Rob

No, I worked with another sales guy named Joe. He was helpful, albeit not all that knowledgeable about speakers (didn't know what a D'Appolito array is for instance), but that's ok. I knew what I was looking for anyhow and it's not like they had a lot of choice in amps.

It was either the B&K or a McIntosh which was on sale for $8k, hehe.