Now before everyone laughs and says..."you always need a bigger sub".

How do I test my existing sub to tell if it's producing enough bass? Do I just use the test tones in my 950 and an spl meter?

I have my sub sitting on a hard wood floor and about 6" from my side wall and 30" from the rear wall so it is getting a good boost from all those smooth surfaces.

I have calibrated my system at 90db and I had to turn my sub way down to get it to 90db with the other speakers. I still somehow feel that it is not delivering the needed kick during peak periods. When I turn up the sub to where I like it for movies it really overpowers music and normal television.

What configuration and size enclosure is it? Is it a small sealed sub or is it a large ported (or passive radiator) sub? Sealed ones are good for blending with music but has limits on getting down real low such as during an explosion scene in a movie. Also, what is the power rating of it's dedicated amp? Stronger amp can push the driver through during demanding situations even on a sealed sub. Bigger sub isn't always the answer. You may want to try a different location first and see if it improves. Or try different crossover frequency. It is possible that the crossover is set too high and drowns out the mid. Without knowing more details of your sub, I can only give a rough guess.

I am unclear how the sub works with my 950. As everyone knows, you can select the crossover frequency on the 950. In my mind, the sub should only receive stuff below 80h, 100hz or 120hz. So, how does adjusting the crossover on my sub affect things. I would think I should turn is all the way up so the sub plays whatever it receives (letting the 950 handle the crossover duties).

My sub is an Acoustic Research with a 12" driver, 250 watt buit-in amp and the enclosure is sealed. It's a bit funny to hook up to my 950 since it has L and R low level inputs (not a single input as I would expect), so I used a splitter to connect the output from the 950 to both inputs of the sub.

I put the sub in a nook next to the new entertainment center where it had smooth surfaces on four sides and the bass was very boomy. Moving it about 2 feet cleared up the boominess.

Ok, you are correct about the crossover dial on your sub. Location is one of the biggest factors on subwoofer performance. You may just have to do a series of trial and error. I don't know if they do, but if AR has 30 day money back guarantee, you may want to switch to a different sub. Not necessarily a bigger sub but a better one. By the way, I'm surprised that a new sub does not have a LEF input these days.

I heard that VTF-2 by HSU is good for both music and HT and the price is reasonable at $499. Aperion Audio, SVS and Adire Audio subs are also said to be good for both and reasonably priced. Nothing against AR but if you are using Outlaw pre-amp and presumably amp as well, you may want to up a notch or two on your sub selection just to get more out of your investment. Its just my opinion. But then, if you find the location in your room that works, great. Keep the sub.

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Wayne, with price tag under $500, do you know of any sealed subwoofer that can go lower than ported ones? I'd like to look it up if there is. Not everyone can afford M&K, REL or Krell subs. For those with limited budget, ported sub can meet their needs more efficiently.

I'll toss my .02 in on speaker placement playing a big part as well. I was never happy with what I got out of my sub (Paradigm) - it was either to boomy or I felt I never heard it. Then when I received my new tv and had to rearrange the setup my sub ended up on the other side of the tv and everything just fell into place - now it's a great balance for me.

Wayne: Thanks for the detailed reply. I just removed the "Y" splitter and I'm only sending my signal to the left. I need to re-calibrate, so I'll let you know how it sounds.

Spiker: My sub is rather old, so it only has a pair of low level inputs and pair of jacks for the speaker wires when used in a system where the receiver does not have a sub output.

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I agree with Wayne Charlton.

MANY years ago I would replace a piece of equipment with another piece that was not significantly better, just different. When the novelty wore off, I was dissatisfied again.

I have since changed my purchasing philosophy: I do not upgrade untill I can get something that will be significantly better and that will satisfy my for many years, even if it means saving up for a while longer than I would otherwise like.

My speakers and turntable are going on 18+ years and I am as happy now with them as when I first bought them. I only recently replaced my 16 year old CD player because I though there had been meaningful improvements in CD playback technology (plus I wanted to try SACD).

Overall, my system, while not anywhere near state of the art, is good enough that I can enjoy the music (or movie) and not be concerned about the equipment.

Think long term: go for quality even if it costs a little more.

Paul

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the 1derful1

I too am asking myself the sub replacement question. I have an older 10" klipsch sub with a passive radiator. My problem is a firecracker loud pop during explosions on recent high energy dvds. After removing the y-splitter which is part of monster's dedicated sub cable the problem diminished. Klipsch tech support suggested looking for physical damage to the active and passive cones. They also stated that subs built during the dolby pro-logic era may not be capable of handling the excursion of modern DD and DTS sound tracks. I am now trying their suggestion of reducing the 955's channel trim on the sub to -15db maximum and using the sub's own power level controls for adjustment. They mentioned the R.S. db meter as being unsatisfactory for sub level adjustment, that I should calibrate "by ear" for the most pleasing level.
My system includes the 950,755, and B&W CDM-NT's all around. Their dedicated center channel (a large and heavyweight monster) and the wall hanging surrounds are awesome!
Any comments or suggestions?

.

Wayne,
your point is well taken. If my budget allows, I would get myself a completely separate systems for HT and music. I would've gotten myself a sub that is specifically designed for HT. For music, I would get a pair of Maxx by Wilson Audio for speakers and X600 amp by Pass Lab hooked up to a pre-amp of same caliber. You won't even need a sub when you have Maxx. And how about those silver lace speaker cables by Homegrown Audio Company? Now imagine the sound you'll get from that. Exactly. For many people (including myself), especially those who would opt for Outlaw products, imagining is what they may end up doing. We all have to draw a line somewhere. There is no question that people have different priorities. The idea is to get the most out of the least amount of means.

The old axioms "you get what you pay for", generally, yes. Other old axioms "there are exceptions to every rule" and "some things are too good not to share".

The reason I mentioned the price range of $500 is after noticing which sub Dane has. Let me share something that's too good not to and an exception to an axiom "you get what you pay for". Adire Audio is one of few cases where you don't have to pay a lot to get a lot of quality. Another case being Outlaw Audio. I own a subwoofer by Adire and its the best $450 I've spent. It outperforms others costing two to three times as much. Adire comes in different sizes and configurations - sealed, ported and passive radiator. Hard not to get it once you see the value that Adire carries. Its just unfortunate that not many products are exceptions to that general rule. Nevertheless, they are out there.

I keep scratching my head. I have a 6'000+ cubic foot room (really big). I can't figure out how my 12" 250 watt sub is filling the room or at least according to my SPL meter. I do have it located so it is getting good boost from a wall and floor, but it still doesn't make sense. Everyone seems to say that a sub this size way too small for my size room, but the SPL meter does not agree. My ears say it is barely adequate.

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Spiker,

I have never heard the Adire Subs but have heard great things about them. I have been swapping emails with them and thinking about getting the new model Daeva which uses the Tempest 15" woofer and DT 300 plate amp in a 22" sealed cube. AT $599 it looks good. I am also considering letting RAD build me one. They have a good reputation and can use the same driver. They are close enough I can drive over and pick it up. They cost a few more dollars but they look like furniture and can match my Speakers finish.

OFCCM, go for it.
Adire's Tempest combined with DT 300 will kick some serious butt. For those have not yet visited www.adireaudio.com , here's a quote from them.

"With over 2.5L of displacement capability, Tempest can reach over 103 dB SPL at 20 Hz, in a sealed box. It can reach 108 dB SPL @ 25 Hz, in a sealed box. That's above home theater reference levels! And placed in a vented box, it can reach even higher SPLs (easily above 115 dB SPL anechoic from 20 Hz and up. In room, expect peak levels well in excess of 120 dB SPL)"

How much would you have to pay to get that kind of sub from other brands? Now that you've been told about Adire, it will be too much.

If you listen to music 80% of time or more, get a sealed enclosure. If its 50 / 50 between HT and music, I'd say ported enclosure or a large sealed one like 5 cubic feet or more (if you have room for it).

I could go on and repeat the comments written by happy consumers of Adire products but my time is limited so I'll recommend this site in case you haven't been there. This is where I first heard about Adire Audio: http://www.audioreview.com/pscSpeakers/Subwoofers/Adire,Audio,Tempest/PRD_125237_ 2741crx.aspx

Adire and Outlaw Audio have something in common. They are both small companies that provide incredible value.

OFCCM, one more thing, I'm not sure if this is Adire's sister website or not but they carry some fine looking Adire subs if you are concerned about the finishes.
http://www.acoustic-visions.com/

Happy feeling (the bass).

[This message has been edited by Spiker (edited June 11, 2003).]

Hey Spiker,

I am going ot be placing my order for the Daeva from Adire Monday.

OFCCM,
once you set it up and ran a few CDs or DVDs through it, don't forget to let us know what you think of it.

Crazy... I start wondering if I need a new sub and the Outlaws announce their new sub.

Hmmmmmm. I wonder if I need a new recliner with a remote built into one armrest and a beer tap in the other. Oh, and a high speed internet connection.