mstmorse et al., let me try this one more time.
(Can you tell I am a new user to forums?)

Anyway, I used to work for the company that makes the DSP that is in the 950, 970, 990 and 1070, so I have a little bit of insight as to what might be going on here.

I have yet to upgrade my unit which was purchased in early February and have only once experienced an audio drop out issue on the Scientific Atlanta Digital STB using the optical TOSLINK connector into Optical 1 on the 970. To correct this, I simply changed the HDTV channel and then changed back and audio came back. (Polling was enabled).

When you reloaded the FW, you say that the audio drop outs seem to have dissapeared, which is consistant with what the beta site testers have all reported. I assume that you have not changed any of the user adjustable initial factory DSP mode settings for each input and audio type, right?

To this I mean, you did not go into the menu and re-assign your preferred DSP modes per audio input type (e.g. when a stream is Dolby Digital 2/0.0, 2/0.1, 2/2.0, 2/2.1, 3/2.0, 3/2.1 (no EX encoding), the factory defaults should be Dolby Digital + Dolby Pro Logic IIx - Cinema) after the unit was upgraded.

I plan to upgrade my 970 this week and have a look at this issue in more detail.

Also, has anyone had this issue using solely analog inputs (which deliver Linear PCM to the DSP) when switching from one source to another source?

Next, has anyone had any issue changing from one source (which has a digital input) to another source (which has a digital input) where the audio data type is identical? This means, if you have a Roku Soundbridge (or some other type of digital audio source), it should be outputting linear PCM. If you have a DVD player and play a CD it will also be sending linear PCM to the 970. Do you experience and audio drop out in this scenario?

Next test is to change channels on a the digital STB (Cable or Satellite) which is sending out Dolby Digital 2/0.0 or Dolby Digital 3/2.1, staying with the same source and digital input (either Optical 1/2/3/4 or Coaxial 1/2/3/4). Do you experience and audio drop out in this scenario?

Lastly, please connect a DVD player that allows you to change the audio stream in real-time (some players allow this, some don't). What I mean by this, is put in a DVD that carries say two or three different audio types (a type is AC-3 (a.k.a Dolby Digital), DTS, or Linear PCM). Does not matter the channel config of the stream type or extension. Change the stream type on the DVD player so that it selects a Dolby Digital stream, then a DTS stream, then a Linear PCM stream. Not all DVDs offer all three (if fact it is rare), but most have at least 1 Dolby Digital track (DVD forum mandate) and DTS track (Steven Speilberg mandate...just kidding).

By changing these audio input types WITHOUT changing the source input, please let me know if you get an audio drop out.

To anyone on the forum wishing to help debug this issue:

Please indicate if you have the new FW or the old FW.

Please indicate if you have Auto Poll enabled or not.

Please indicate which source you are using and which digital input.

Please indicate the audio type and associated DSP mode that the unit was in when the "no-audio" issue happens.

Please indicate if you have changed ANY of the factory settings and if you have, please indicate which settings you changed.

With this detailed information, the Outlaws should be able to get to the bottom of this problem and issue a new FW fix in no time.

The main catch with these types of sticky FW issues is that for some people the repeatability of this problem is 100%, for others, it has taken them weeks to find this issue (in fact 8 people Beta tested this code for 3 weeks and no one found the issue, in addition to the extensive QA test that it went through at the factory).

The more repeatable the problem, the easier it is to find, replicate and repair. If the problem is not easily repeatable by all parties, reporting this kind of feedback is critical.

Thank you all for your feedback.

Find the problem, give me the solution. I'm tired of being a beta tester. It might sound harsh, but I did pay 700 dollars for the unit which shouldn't have a "no audio" bug. Not audio drop out, but no audio.

They'll find it, iardon. Oracle's point is much the same as mine (albeit with much greater detail since he's apparently spent some quality time under the hood of the Cirrus 49300 and 49400 chips) - this bug is not necessarily easily reproduced (if it were, it would be happening to everybody), so details on how it is reproduced for the folks who do experience it is key to fixing it.

Oracle, it's not entirely clear from your post, but I take it you aren't directly associated with Outlaw or the 970 development itself (aside from owning one yourself) - you're just offering your suggestions for zeroing in on the problem based on experience with the Cirrus DSP's. Am I right? Either way, that's a great test procedure you've outlined.

I also have the no audio problem with a couple of twists.

I see it when I use my Directv HD DVR. About 20% of the time when I fast forward and stop I get no audio. I simply go to pause and try again and it works. Polling is off and the standard settings are used for DD. I also get two other alternatives. First, about 1 in 20 occurances of audio problems I will get a distorted audio. Second, in about the same interval, I'll get a white noise audio output (scares the hell out of you). This is the same sound you get when you try to play a DTS cd on a non DTS player. Basically no decoding of the signal.

The no audio problem is there all the time on live Directv as well. If I switch between DD channels and Pro logic channels, no audio will occur as well in about 20% of the time.

I have seen the no audio on the dvd player, but not as often (I usually don't stop and start the dvd player).

This problem is getting frustrating. I added the new FW with no improvement.

I've had the no audio problem occur via a analog input (XM Radio). I think I'm the only one that has happened to. I don't have "no audio" after it's working like some have experienced. My no audio problems occur only from start up. And it doesn't matter in which order I power up my equipment. Auto polling is always off and 99.9% of the time I'm able to fix the problem just by cycling through audio modes. At the end, I'll have to do a full circle to get the mode I powered up with but that's my solution. Once in a while the unit will totally lock up, not respond from the remote or front buttons but that's only happened a few times.

Btw, all this info has already been given to Outlaw a while ago. And maybe, just maybe, this is a hardware problem. Hmmm... what will Outlaw do then? Not to sound like a broken record but, my problems (no audio/popping/hiss) started when I swapped my Onkyo for the 970. So it's obvious the 970 has issues and it's frustrating to hear from fellow outlaws and employees of outlaw audio to try things like "a different outlet, or separate the cables or try a different digital input or test this and that". It's obvious the 970 has some issues and possibly hardware problems as well. Or maybe it's just built cheaply. I don't know, I'm not an expert in this field, just comparing to what I used to have.

Well, if the 970 has a hardware problem, I suspect you'll see them do what they did with the 950 - repair or replace the defective units. I still suspect that the problem is software related, though.

Gonk et al., it is time that I come clean.

I got involved with Outlaw when I was at Cirrus when they were mid-way through the 950 platform in the firmware development at Eastech. I worked closely with Outlaw on such features as Triple-Crossover Bass Management, Cirrus Extra Surround, understanding of the various DSP modes, autodetection, microcontroller interaction, etc.

During my time at Cirrus, I debugged problems like this for a living.

After choosing to advance my career, I left Cirrus to become Director of Product Development for the CHED (Commercial and High-End Division) of Eastech/ATLM Taiwan.

The 970 is based on a platform that I co-designed with the Director of Engineering using an almost all-Cirrus IC solution.

I currently do not work for Eastech any longer as I moved back to Austin, Texas for personal reasons. Living in Taiwan for 2 years and not being able to pick up Mandarin Chinese in itself was quite a challenge. However, if you every have the ability to work overseas, I highly recommend it as it is an invaluable life experience. I am very thankful for the opportunity that was given to me.

Unfortunately, I was not able to see the 1070 or 970 to firmware completion, beta testing then production, but while I was there I did manage the firmware engineer that developed the firmware for both the 970 and 1070, on other projects. He is very smart and very capable.

I was contacted by the Outlaws and asked if I might be able to spend some "free" time to look into this issue.

Iardon, I can sincerely sympathize with your frustration. Believe it or not, I am in the exact same boat. I purchased my 970, and want nothing more than to see this issue brought to closure, because I do agree with you. Regardless of the dollar amount you paid, Outlaw products stand for both quality and value. While this particular bug is not easily repeatable, even for a major Japanese brand (believe me), I can assure you that we will get to the bottom of this.

AVR/Audio Processor designs are amazingly complicated and take even the most proficient company anywhere from 1 ~ 1.5 years to design a platform from the ground up, which this platform was.

Even though I did not write a single line of microcontroller code for this system, from the HIGHLY valuable feedback that the Outlaw Saloon members: pjcrs and iardon have given, I am 100% convinced, what you are experiencing, in terms of the "no audio" issue is definately NOT related to a hardware problem.

This is definately a software problem. Which, as my favorite ex-Outlaw Martha Stewart says, "is a good thing", because it means that this can be fixed (hence the inclusion of the RS-232 port and flash memory capability on this platform).

It appears to be related to the system microcontroller interaction with the DSP autodetection mechanism.

PJSCRS, your descriptions of no-audio combined with "a white noise audio output (scares the hell out of you). This is the same sound you get when you try to play a DTS cd on a non DTS player" are a classic case of telling the DSP that the audio format is AC-3 (or PCM) when in fact it is PCM (or AC-3). What you are hearing is the DSP configured for PCM playback (as this is what the stream looks like to the DSP when you are fast forwarding as the typical stream "clues" are all chopped up, it assumes that what you are sending is PCM. Suddenly, when you start playing again, 20% of the time you are getting the "no audio" problem, which is what the DSP is SUPPOSED to do when it has been configured for PCM, but then detects the incoming stream as AC-3.

This would also account for the 970 "no-audio" output when people are initially turning on their units when a digital audio stream is already being sent to the unit.

When the input source or DSP mode is changed, the microcontroller (should) tell the DSP first look that the incoming stream and THEN upon report of this stream, load the appropriate default or user-preferred DSP mode.

Depending on when the DSP "looks" at the incoming stream, for a brief moment in time (X mS) it may report a compressed stream as a PCM stream, until it sees the correct IEC61937 header identifier and/or compressed stream sync word coming from the S/PDIF input (optical TOSlink or Coaxial), after which it will then report the proper stream to the microcontroller.

Iardon, what is puzzling is the reported "no audio" when the input selection is Analog. Is this highly repeatable? Is there another analog audio source that you might possibly use...i.e. one that is not subject to audio drop-outs of their own (I also own an XM tuner).

The the 970, when the input is analog, this means that the data can not be anything but Linear PCM being sent to the DSP, hence there is no need for the microcontroller to wait for the DSP to report that the incoming stream is PCM, however that does not mean that the DSP should not still be continuously running "autodetect" in the background (which is entirely different than Auto-Poll. It can just set the default, last or user-set DSP mode (which is appropriate for processing Linear PCM) and start processing data.

However, this may well be explained later on as you report "My no audio problems occur only from start up. And it doesn't matter in which order I power up my equipment." To me, this indicates that there is another issue going on where the microcontroller is setting the default DSP mode (or user-preffered DSP mode) without first looking at the audio stream type upon system initialization.

For those that might question the amount of QA that this product went through, I can assure you that thousands of man-hours went into the debugging of the system firmware over the design lifetime of this product just to get it where it is today.

I am at a disadvantage as I do not have access to the labs that I once had where this problem could be diagnosed in a day or two, with an I2C/SPI bus sniffer and scope, provided that the problem was repeatable with the proper source equipment.

If you gents and other members that would like to assist the Outlaws by donating your free time to bring this issue to close (just like me), I am certain that it would be greatly appreciated by the Outlaws.

The data that needs to be collected (in detail) is outline in my previous posting. The more data that is collected (please do not spare ANY detail, including: audio source make and model, digital or analog connection, (if digital) Optical or Coaxial and #, Source input, Source material (e.g. Blade Runner DVD, Dolby Digital 3/2.1 English track, 1 hour, 2 mins, 13 seconds into movie or HDNET channel), Auto-Poll On/Off, DSP mode that the unit is initially in when it is powered up, indicate if the unit starts from analog input and then switches to digital input when Auto-Poll is enabled (or even disabled), methods by which you are able to get the unit to recover from the "no-audio" issue, methods by which you are able to make the "no-audio" issue worse.

The Outlaws are trying their best to get to the bottom of this issue, and we could really use your help.

Thank you in advance.

At first I wasn't having this issue after the upgrade. Then when all of you started talking about it I started seeing this behavior. It happens to me when I power the unit off when it has been playing Audio through the Analog connection. When I power back up and immediately switch to a digital input (my cable box) I sometimes get the "no audio." personally I think part of the problem is these substandard cable boxes that the companies are putting out. I had an issue with this cable box model (Scientific Atlanta 3250HD) on my other Pre-Amp (B&K Ref 10). It was the only device that ever had a problem with locking the digital signal with my B&K. B&K's said that they had a fix, but I had to upgrade to the newer Codecs. Well I upgraded to a Outlaw 970! I feel confident that Outlaw will get this resolved, but I am also getting frustrated, like others. I haven't had tome to really troubleshoot this issue, but what I have detailed above is what I have noticed.

Good Luck,

Charlie

I have the 1070, but I also am having similar problems; the last time I observed it was with an analog signal as well, set to DPLII-M. It is a very intermittant problem for me, so its hard to keep track of.

I also have a 1070. No audio problem happens to me very seldom - about once every two weeks. Last time it happened I was running a SACD in 7.1 analog mode and when I switched back to an optical input there was no audio.