Folks,

Thought I'd post this thread here since the SMS-1 does not yet have it's own section at least not when I first started typing this yesterday.

First off, I apologize for being a dose of cold water.

I read the latest announcement on the SMS-1 with great interest. Of particular appeal was the following:

"It also handles up to three different subs simultaneously, making it a piece of cake to squeeze every last bit of performance from any subwoofer configuration you could throw at it, including our LFM double sub combos."

I have multiple subs. Got my attention!

Then I downloaded the owner's manual and found out that the SMS-1's LFE outputs all send the same signal to each sub. In order to properly EQ multiple subs you will need to buy one SMS-1 per sub since, in my opinion, it would be next to impossible to place two (or three) subs, identical or not, in two (or three) different locations in the same room and expect that they would each need the same optimized signal to perform their best. A single SMS-1 with multiple subs is a compromise at best.

Having thrown cold water on the multiple sub issue, it still looks like a single SMS-1 unit should make a great addition in a single sub situation.

Anyone else see it differently?

Jeff Mackwood

It is going to give you a flat level bass response regradless. However, in doing so it is possible that it will not do it in the most efficient way possible. It's up to you how much that is worth for you. You could get 1 SMS-1, configure it, and then unplug subs sequentally and retest the room frequency response to see how well it did its job. If it did it well, no worries, if not, you could get another one or a differeint equalizer.

It struck me that the main point of the SMS-1 was more convenience rather than advanced functionality. I havn't checked around, but your can probobly get cheaper equalizers that do the same thing but require run your own frequency response curve with your own spl meter.

Hello Jeff,

As much as we'd love to sell you more than one of these for your subs, it's really not necessary. Here's why:

You're going to position the microphone in your favorite listening position at which point you'll run either the "auto" or "manual" EQ software. The SMS-1 will then begin to address the signal it is recording/hearing in that position. Please note that I didn't say it would address your subs. Instead, it's looking at the bass output from each sub as a whole as if it were coming from one sub.

This of course would be an entirely different situation if you were running "stereo" subs. However, in our experience, that's a relatively uncommon practice. Most people run dual mono subs, and in a dual mono sub configuration a single SMS-1 does a great job, and yes...I've experienced this first hand

Scott

Scott,

That is as I suspected - and I agree that it should work very well.

However "squeezing every last bit of performance" to me would mean setting an optimum curve for each sub individually, and then treating them globally.

I realize that for most people who are running a pair of the same subs, located most likely in "morror" positions to each other, that there would likely be very little difference. However in my case I am running four subs - three different types, and three distinct positions accoustically. I'm willing to take one sub out of the equation if the rest can be properly EQ'd.

In any case I'll likely order a unit in the new year, when I am again travelling to the US, and will give it a try in my set-up. If it does not work out I can always use your excellent 30 day return policy.

And before I forget, thanks to Outlaw for continuing to bring such products to the market.

All the best.

Jeff Mackwood

As with any product, process or system, a balance is struck between what is possible, what is practical, and what something costs – at least this is true for those of us with less than multiple millions to spend on our audio gear.

I have no problem with something like the SMS-1 or built in auto-EQ except: I always want more. I want the whole central area of my room to sound good, not just a ‘sweet spot,’ not to mention how the sound carries to adjacent rooms. I run ‘stereo’ subs, not just dual mono, that are set up near-mirror – intentionally shifted in an attempt to let the room nulls of one sub be somewhat filled in by the positive nodes of the other and this does happen to some degree – so I would “need” two SMS-1 units for individual correction. Some people run a ‘musical’ sub, or multiple subs that carry main program material below the crossover point selected, plus a separate LFE-only sub. I suppose that there are a few other hybrid subwoofer schemes out there that would also require multiple SMS-1 units.

In any case, I had to deal with subwoofer in-room-response issues before the SMS-1 became available and therefore, with careful placement and adjustment, I have obtained a certain amount of ‘sub satisfaction’ without the SMS-1. Might two SMS-1’s help my situation? Perhaps. I’m just not sure that there’s enough ‘bang for the buck,’ or ‘two bucks,’ in my situation.

Still, I’m glad that Outlaw is offering an increasing stable of products to meet a variety of needs and that many people may derive benefit from an SMS-1. Perhaps a bit further down the trail I’ll try one.

There had been a lot of discussion about multiple sub configurations and use of the SMS-1 pre and post release here:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=495331&page=12&pp=30

I've given you the link to go close to the release date when people started actually using one (or more.)

There was a spokesperson from Velodyne speaking to them before the actual release date, but I did not see anything else from him after that.

Perhaps the Outlaws can get some input/help for us from Velodyne. (hint, hint)

Thanks Jeff Mackwood for posting this. I was in fact considering using the SMS-1 for stereo subs.

-Regards

I am using two subs as well and am hoping for an SMS1 this Christmas. I don't understand the stereo sub issue. Not sure how you get a true stereo LFE signal from a source to begin with and what advantage there is in a stereo sub 80Hz frequency anway? I would think that what you would be attenpting to do with the SMS1 is reduce the LFE stereo affect (double bass?). In the end you want the listener to find it hard to determine where the LFE signal is coming from, starting out with two seperate LFE signals would seem to make that harder. I guess it would be more fun to dial in each sub seperatly, but the biggest LFE problem in my room is loose dry wall nails. :-)

That's why I use sheetrock screws. Now, if I could just get the suspended ceiling to stop vibrating. The SMS-1 is on my short list of pieces to acquire. I think it shouldn't matter if you use one SMS-1 for multiple subs. I would actually think this would even be better. If you equalize individual subs, what assurance do you have they will act properly when the signals are blended? Of course, I only care about a single listening position as I built my HT room for myself. Other people in the room are still blown away anyhow and probably don't notice as much as I do when things are slightly out of whack.

"I only care about a single listening position as I built my HT room for myself. Other people in the room are still blown away anyhow and probably don't notice as much as I do when things are slightly out of whack."

ditto,doug!

and nothing to do with the sms-1.

whenever i'm allowed to do 2 subs,they will be stereo.(probably have to learn to do active x-overs pretty soon.)

That's the part I don't understand. Where does one get a stereo LFE signal? Are there DVD's and Pre/Pro's that support this? Or is the stereo term being used to describe a single discrete signal that is split and then managed separately?

i didn't say anything about LFE.i'm 99.9999% music.

The cases I've seen where stereo subs are used apply to tying left and right subs to the left and right channels (effectively creating true full range mains). In some cases LFE is mixed in (as can be done with the ICBM), and in others it goes to a third sub.

I'm buying CD's now that have stereo on one side of the disc and 5.1 on the other and I enjoy them both. If it's just a regular CD I kick the 950 into 5 channel stereo for full benefit of the subs. But regardless of the media, if you have two subs, you'll be sending a single-split bass frenquency to each of them. To me that's not stereo subs, maybe ProLogic Subs if they are 180 out of phase with each other.

i bought fionna apple's new cd fri.it was the same way.i took it back before i opened it because it stated that the 2-ch side did not conform to cd specifications.i got the regular 'ole 2-ch disc instead.i was worried it wouldn't play in the CAL.that transport is the greatest,though a bit finicky.

and i was basically talking about stereo subs as gonk stated,but you lose flexibility(can't control the bass from the couch)

Ah, I get the picture now.

Just an observation, but I have full range rear speakers and find that they are not always used to their potential because most of the sound that goes to them has been adjusted to fit the most common surround systems which use smaller speakers for the rears and the signals commonaly sent to them do not require a full range speaker. Just debating in my own mind how useful stereo subs might be.

You need to read Soundhound's posts on stereo subs.

Even if you don't have stereo subs, but do have multiple subs, and even if you are sitting in one spot only (just for yourself) you will still most likely not be getting the best performance possible from your subs when using one SMS-1 - as I have explained above.

While I have not used one, I have no doubt that the SMS-1 will work well in multiple non-stereo sub applications, but because it will be sending the same signal to each sub, rather than an optimized signal for each sub, it will be a compromise.

If it did not come through in my original post, my issue is with Outlaw's statement that a single SMS-1 will "squeeze every last bit of performance from any subwoofer configuration you could throw at it". I simply can't see how this can be true. "improve" or even "dramatically improve" I can believe. But "squeeze every last bit of performance" I can't - not from one SMS-1 as configured, and multiple subs.

This is not a matter of semantics.

Jeff Mackwood

Jeff,

I can understand your point of not sending the same signal to each of the subs, thus the subs not having identical frequency response. However if the sum of both mono subs at a given frequency reach the listener at the the appropriate dB level, does it really matter if one sub is doing more/less work than the other since bass in non-directional anyhow? Also please post a link to the post you are refering to. I'll give it a read and see if there is anything there to sway my opinion on the matter.

Cheers!

That's "squeeze every last bit of performance" for $599.00 not $5999.00. You must have mis-read the price.

Doug917,

If you do a Saloon search for "stereo subs" limited to just "Soundhound" you will turn up several threads / posts.

One of the best is http://ubb.outlawaudio.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?/ubb/get_topic/f/4/t/000250.html#000002

What if you had two subs, and the result was that only one of them was working at all? An extreme example I know, but it would defeat the purpose of having two (or more) subs - and would certainly not be a case of "squeezing every last bit of performance" out of them.

In your less extreme example, having one sub working harder than the others is likewise a compromise, and would also patially defeat part of the purpose of having multiple subs: smoothing out the room response.

MeanGene,

I guess my math ability does not match yours!

As previously noted, an alternative, although not a very attractive one, would be to use one SMS-1 for each sub. Two subs equals $1198. Three subs equals... Never heard of anyone operating a ten sub system like you appear to be doing!

I would have thought that a change in the system's software that would see it cycle through each sub individually and then treat them all globally, along with any very minor hardware mods (if any) would not have added significantly to the cost. The SMS-1 at $599. The SS-1 Pro for $699? I'd buy that.

Jeff Mackwood

I personally have a BFD but only one subwoofer. I do know, however, of several folks who also have a BFD and 2 subs connected to it; since the BFD has 2 independent engines (for the right and left channel), they have DIFFERENT presets/filters for each sub in order to maximize the frequency response...

OK, I was throughly humbled by SoundHounds "Article" on stereo subs. But, after reading it I found that there was a limited amount of source material that would benefit by such a configuration. A bass or drum closer to one mike than another, analog content only, etc. Not sure if it's worth it, but it sounds like a good way to spend a couple of weeks setting it up. Opps, forgot, I'm not retired yet. Anyway, Jeff, I was wrong about the price. I found a component that would do just what you want, but it's more like $30,000.00. I had a link to it but lost it along the way, sorry about that. Anyway looking at the spec's of your system, it looks pretty good, I don't know why you need to do anything.

My complaint about the SMS-1 is that it filters out frequencies below 15Hz. I think my two subs can drop down to 10Hz without to much of a problem and would like, at least, the opportunity to explore that possibility.

Ok. Here is a silly question.. For the pre-sets- when I EQ the sub manually do I have to adjust the pre-sets also or is there some magic formulae that the SMS-1 applies to these based on my core settings?

When you EQ the sub, use "setup" as the preset that you are adjusting. This will apply the EQ settings to all of the presets, giving you the flat response you want as the baseline for each preset. The System Setting options of contour (which acts as a ninth EQ channel with adjustable frequency and level) and volume will them differentiate between the presets.

When you are in the System Response screen (where the EQ's are), you have the option of manually adjusting the EQ's for each preset separately by changing which preset is being modified at the top left corner of the screen. The only reason I'd do that would be to quickly compare two different set of EQ adjustments; setting the preset to "setup" (the default) will make sure that all the work you put into getting a flat response is available to all five presets (the sixth preset being a bypass of the EQ).

Thanks Gonk. I know you also talked of stacking but is it ok to lower say 20hz and 24hz. Are they far enough apart? I have a severe peak and they are lowered by about 9 to 10 db or so.

Stacking is mainly a concern if you are applying boost to the two EQ's. If you were applying boost at 20 and 24Hz, I'd suggest increasing the Q (which narrows the area affected by the EQ), but if you are pulling down a peak I wouldn't worry about it.

Thanks again :p

I found that when I moved the mic around the room I had results that were in correlation to the standing waves that are found in that room. If I moved the mic a foot or two closer or further from the center I would be able to get the flat responce I was looking for. When you get to the point where you think you need to stack frequencies try moving the mic around a little and see if it makes a difference for you.

Standing Waves in Room

Trivia: I belch at around 125 Hz

Gonk,

When you hooked up the SMS-1 with the 990, is your 990 set up to send bass to just the sub or to the sub+L/R? Currently, I have the 990 sending low bass to sub+L/R. However, I was thinking once I get the SMS-1 and hook it up I will probably look at sending it to just the sub. I'm just thinking if I still send lows to the L/R they will not be equalized, but if I send everything under 80Hz to the sub only it should provide better response down low. Please advise of your finding on this matter.

Thanks!

All of my speakers are set to small, with my sub set to on (no sub+L/R). With an SMS-1, this is probably the best way to approach it - in fact, it would be almost essential if you wanted to really see what the sub was doing by itself.

We were watching a couple movies this afternoon while doing other things in the den, and in teh middle of Italian Job my wife remarked that the system sounded better and asked if it was because of the SMS-1 (the only thing that has changed in the system since last May or so).

Folks,

Just wanted to BUMP this thread to let people know that I meant what I said back on November 28th: that I would eventually order an SMS-1 the next time I was travelling to the US to try it out.

I placed my order with Steve today and expect to see it arrive at my hotel next week.

As described in the past I'm running a not-so-typical set-up with four subs in my main theatre. At present I run one cable from my 950's LFE output to a B&W sub, which has a pass-through connection that then heads to a pair of Velodynes. The signal is split just before them and they each see the same signal. The fourth sub is actually a homebuilt that takes the end result of a dbx 100 subharmonic synthesizer. I don't plan to include it in the SMS-1 set-up / loop, since I dial it in purely by/for "taste" depending on what I'm listening to.

(Here's where some comments / feedback would be appreciated.)

I'm planning to keep the other three subs hooked up exactly the same way as they are now - except with the SMS-1 inserted between the sub chain and the 950. Right now the three subs are pretty much perfectly level-balanced so my thinking is that all I need do is to pretend that that chain is just a single sub and let the auto-EQ funtion do its trick. (I'll likely try some manual adjustments in future, but right now the user's manual is not the clearest in that regard - so I'll stick to keeping it simple at first.) I still plan to leave all of my speakers set to "small" with a 40Hz crossover - since they truly are large full-range speakers. Anyone using an SMS-1, especially with multiple non-stereo configured subs, have any reason to believe that this whole set-up won't work well for me?

As reported over on the S&V Forums, I'm presently re-doing my main theatre and expect it to be completed in a couple of weeks. I'll post a link to fresh pics over here shortly thereafter. For now it seemed like a good time to add the SMS-1 to my system.

Regards.

I think you've got a good plan, Jeff - run all three subs from the trio of sub outputs on the SMS-1 and treat them as a single entity. You can start with the Auto-EQ, but I'd definitely recommend following up with a manual adjustment. We can walk you through it if the manual doesn't get you on track, but basically the manual allows you to have much more control (each EQ channel can be moved to a different frequency and its "Q" adjusted to control how widely its effects are felt, whereas the automatic mode leaves those settings at their defaults).

One other thing to consider is playing with the crossover - if you mute the SMS-1 (which effectively mutes your subs), you can vary the crossover on the mains and watch how they respond. Then you can un-mute the SMS-1 and see how the subs and mains interact. In my case, I had a dip near 60Hz that I resolved by raising the crossover so the sub was responsible for that frequency and then letting the SMS-1 flatten out the dip. It's worth keeping an eye out for.

Thanks Gonk.

I won't be changing the physical cabling between the three subs - for layout / cost reasons. That means all three will be driven from one output - as is now the case direct from the 950. My assumption is that this should make no difference whatsoever.

As to manual mode. I will give it a shot - eventually. Neat suggestion regarding the crossover point / your mains. In my case, I'm looking at three stacks of two speakers each, across the front, with response that's flat to below 30Hz (with a combined count of six 10" woofers - and tons of available power amp output.) Add a pair of matching surrounds and you can understand what a waste it would be to offload an octave (or so) of bass from them onto the three subs - whose three 12" drivers and internal amps are at best an equal match to the mains - in the 30-60Hz range. Having so many woofers, spread throughout the room, is likely the reason why the overall bass response in the room is already very smooth. In fact I'll probably experiment with setting all of the speaker outputs on the 950 to "large" and let the subs handle only the true LFE output. My guess is that "small" and "40 Hz" (as it is now) is still the best way to go, but using the SMS-1's display to confirm this or not is an excellent suggestion. (And I will experiment with higher crossover settings as well.)

I'm sure I'll have questions once I roll up the sleeves and get into it!

Regards.

There should be no problem with the cabling approach you describe, Jeff. And I think that once you get a chance to try some manual EQ adjustment, you'll be pleased with what the SMS-1 will let you do. Ask away as you start setting it up - several of us around here have spent some quality time with the SMS-1 now and can help you along.

Your crossover selection certainly does seem to be the best fit for your system. Since you'll be letting the subs handle all of the LFE track, you might want to temporarily bump your crossover up to 80 or even 120Hz when EQ'ing the subs - that way you can flatten the subs' response with LFE channel signals that extend beyond the 40Hz crossover point as well as with low-pass data under 40Hz that is redirected from your full-range channels. Afterward, you could pop the crossover back down to 40Hz. If you are looking for a quick approach to setup, the "Self EQ" approach (triggered by hitting "3-2-1" on the remote) will do something very similar to this because it adjusts the EQ by sending the test tone sweeps straight to the sub (bypassing the processor's bass management) - so it'll flatten your subs' response from 20Hz to 100Hz (the default positions for the EQ's).

Thanks again Gonk.

I'll start with the auto EQ and see how it works out. I really am looking forward to eventually playing with and getting the heck of the unit - it will be just a matter of finding the time. That's what's so appealing about the auto EQ funtion. It sounds like I can quite literally connect and apply it within minutes of opening the box.