Moved into our new house three months ago and I'm pecking away on the home theater. So here's where I am... So far I've got a Sony 40" XBR high-def TV and a Sony progressive scan DVD player. I just bought a Panamax 5100 line conditioner to feed my new electronics nice smooth power. The space I have to fill with sound is quite large, about 7'000 cubic feet in all. It it is a living room with the back wall open to the kitchen and dining area. The living room has a ceiling vaulted up to 12' and the dining & kitchen are 9' ceilings.

Next on my "list to purchase" are a receiver/amp and speakers. I think I have finally narrowed my receiver choice down to the Outlaw 950 though I have not choosen an amp. yet. I was looking at Sony or Denon all-in-one box but the price of the Outlaw makes it a strong contender.

The big problem are speakers. I've got a $3'000 budget in mind. Of course, the wife does not like big speakers so I am limited somewhat in size. My side surrounds MUST be in-wall and the front L & R can be bookshelf size. I put my foot down on the sub (gotta pick your battles) and can do about anything. So far I am leaning towards the M&K since they seem to have a speaker for each location that I like. What does everyone think I should do with my $3'000 speaker money.

Lots of advice would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks
Dane

This has got to be an exciting time for you.

Let me start backward by bringing up the sub first since that's what I'm most familiar with out of my 6 speakers. Adire Audio's Shiva is it when it comes to price & performance ratio. I wrote this in B & W subwoofer category in this chat room. Forget all the commercial stuff unless you spend over 1K. I've been using Shiva for 6 months and I couldn't be happier after spending about $400. It is both musical and dynamic (for home theater). I built my own enclosure which saved some money but you can find pre-finished enclosures at reasonable prices. Look up www.acoustic-visions.com. Also, see the reviews on this sub at www.audioreview.com.

As for the center and main, try Vifa A/V kit speaker from www.Madisound.com. I've been using them for a year now and it upsets my friends when they audition it. Why? They spent more on their name brand speakers but mine sounds better! The clarity and details are said to be equivalent to those costing up to $ 1,000 or more per pair and its only $ 216 each. See the review on this at audioreview. For the surrounds, ideally, you want to match the speaker parts with center and mains for harmonic surround sound. I would also recommend Vifa kit from Madisound. You can mount them above the head height while pointing them down a little. But if you must have in-wall speakers, try www.partsexpress.com I personally have not auditioned these in-wall stuff. Thiel audio makes some high-end in-wall speakers if you want to spend more.

Hope this helps.

M&K is a very solid company which makes very good speakers for home theater applications. You would not go wrong purchasing a system of their products powered by Outlaw Equipment. Another nice thing about their products is that they blend very nicely together. The only problem I could see would be the size of your room. That's a mighty large space to fill. Which model of M&Ks were you looking at for the front L/R channels? The surrounds would work fine with in-walls but I'm wondering about the amount of punch available from the mains.

Also, I would seriously consider twin subwoofers in a room that size. Actually, I believe you would be better off with two subwoofers in any size room!!

Just looking quickly at M&Ks website for pricing, your budget may be in trouble when you start to consider a system of the size you're looking at. I may be a M&K buff, but I'll add that many different speaker companies make speakers of different types that would fit your given set-up. You may also want to consider systems by PSB, Paradigm, Infinity, and more that are beyond my memory at this point. The point being, remember to listen to speakers by these various companies before deciding on installing them. It's not a small amount of money you're investing and you want to be happy with what you end up with. Let your ears decide for you.

M&K speakers are truly excellent, and I recommend them highly.

You might also want to check out Atlantic Technology: I know they make a variety of in-wall speakers including a darned impressive in-wall subwoofer!

Jeff

Keep the ideas coming...

From my old system I have a 250 watt Acoustic Research sub which I will use until I upgrade the last piece in my puzzle. So far I would like a pair of SVS, but I have not found anyone in the area with them.

My big problem, beside coming up with some $$$$ is that I live in the middle of nowhere NC. Listening to several different brands of speakers will involve a lot of driving and a bit of flying. At this point I am trying to slim down my search a bit. My room is huge, but I am not going to try and push it to THX volumes. The sytem will spend 80% of it's time playing normal television shows and the remaining will be split between music and movies.

I have listened to the Klipsch which sounded OK, but they only had one in-wall speaker that I really like. A store about 35 miles away sells B&W so I'll be making a trip there next, but I think they will be too expensive (though the wife thought the Nautilus towers ($8'000 each) would look good in the living room). One of the biggest things going for the M&K so far is that they seem to have some decent speakers in smaller sizes (gotta keep the wife happy). I am a bit worried that some reviews say that the M&K I like (150THX) has a narrow sweet spot.

I knew I forgot to mention Atlantic Tech. I got their literature, and they have an in-wall that looks good but it looked like they only sell it as a part of their total in-wall system. I am making things difficult by splitting between in-wall and standard freestanding/bookshelf speakers. My wife like the idea of in-walls to make them invisible, but I am not conviced that an in-wall could provide enough oomph for my front channels in my huge room.

Well, Gonk and I are Paradigm men. Given the WAF, the studio 20's and Paradigms inwall speakers may be just up your alley.
They come in black, a natural cherry, and a red cherry finish (I've got the natural cherry finish in my apartment right now, and the look great with my hardwood floors.) You can check out the Paradigm website at www.paradigm.ca.

For the sub, I know SVS are the best bang for your buck...especialy since you may need 2 subs to realy make that large room sing. However getting the Mrs' acceptance on 2 black water heaters may be a little hard to do. Check out the PW2200, and just tell her to decorate them as end tables. I've demoed the PW2200 and it's an excellent sub that can be had for around $600. Not quite the performer as a SVS 16-46PCi that I've got sitting in my system right now...but it's very close. The nice thing about the PW2200 is that it's available in the same finishes as the Studio 20's, so having her "coordinate the furniture" may be a decent selling point/comprimise for some very fine audio gear.

Jason

speaking of gonk...

I have had very good luck with my Paradigm Reference speakers, and they do have in-wall speakers available. A Studio/CC, Studio/20 or Studio/40 mains, and some SA in-walls would be a nice system. The Studio/40's are bookshelf speakers, but they are on the large side for a bookshelf -- the Studio/20 is a bit smaller. Atlantic Tech would also be worth checking out, as already mentioned. According to something in their online FAQ , you may be able to "mix and match" a bit between their different speaker systems:



Another possibility is B&W - the Nautilus 805's would put a dent in your budget, but they are reportedly great bookshelf speakers.

As for the SVS (which I have and have been very pleased with), have you checked out Audio Envy yet to look for nearby SVS owners willing to demo their gear?

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gonk -- Saloon Links | Pre/Pro Comparison Chart | 950 Review

I didn't hear the AT in-wall sub, but I saw it at CES last year and the year before, and it looked like it could produce quite a lot of oomph! Perhaps you can arrange to hear a demo somewhere?

Jeff

M&K may be a good choice for subwoofer if you have a higher budget. When it comes to subwoofers, Adire Audio can slay other brand names at it's price range without even breaking a sweat. In a side by side comparison, Adire's Shiva will have other brands like Paradigm, Polk, Infinity and JBL run away like a dog with it's tale tugged between the legs.

I've listened to my friend's Klipsch subwoofer costing $1,000 and my Adire's Shiva out performs it. I spent less than half of that. Its tight, loud, musical and the ability to move the air is incredible. Check out www.adireaudio.com for more detailed spec on their drivers. Shiva has Xmax distance of 15.8 mm one way! That's the amount of air it can move/vibrate. I doubt you'll find drivers like that from $500 subwoofer if they even list it in their spec. 1 Adire's Shiva may do the job for your large room. Why spend more on getting two? What about the square footage that you are giving up by having two? If you think Shiva may not be enough then you may want to try Adire's 15" Tempest or the ultimate Tumult (Xmax = 34 mm one way). These products can be delivered to your door and dollar for dollar, the quality is outstanding. I'm not their salesman. I'm just a fortunate user of their product.

I didn't see anyone mention Defintive and their subs. They have small, very affordable ones and then you move up to the newer Supercubes.

I have a pf15TL+, for $650.00, and the Spercube 1 for $1,200.00

The 3 10" woofers in the Supercube, coupled with the 1,500 watt amp kills the 15" 500 watt 15TL+.

Both are actually quite musical, with the Supercube being the better of the 2 in that regard.

I auditioned the smaller SuperCube 2, and that little thing kicks some ass as well. I guess we all have our brands we latch onto, and mine is Def Tech.

If you want excellent low frequency response, the Supercube is rated down to 13Hz. I have run the 20Hz test tone several times and it picks it up without breaking a sweat

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Play it LoUd!!

But remember, there's a difference between good bass and loud and deep bass. There aren't that many subwoofers out there that can do both, at least not compared to the garbage that's out there.

I'd say M&K is probably your best bet for subwoofers. I'd also consider the Sunfire and the Sunfire Junior, Atlantic Technology, B&W, and if your budget's high enough, Aerial.

Some day ... not today, but someday ... I'm moving up to an Aerial 20t system!

Jeff

The advice is helping. I surfed the Paradigm site and their speakers look good. The dealer locator on their webpage was not working when I tried, but they replied promptly to my e-mail and have located a couple local (40 & 80 miles away) dealers. The one I spoke to seemed knowledgable. From what I saw on their website I like the Reference Studio 40 for my front left & right, and possibly the SA-25 in-walls for my side surrounds. One of the big benefits is that the wife is happy so far with the appearance and size of the Paradigms. She gave me the "where in the %$&* are you going to put that" when I showed her how big the SVS subs were. Apparently women don't appreciate the benefits of bone shaking bass.

PS: Just finished watching Jackie Chan in Tuxedo. I bet James Brown would sound better in 5.1 or 7.1 surround. Man, am I getting tired of my olde stereo.

If you think that's bad, show her this sub (http://music.bizrate.com/Harman%20Kardon%20subwoofer,mpoi__cat_id--11560000,prod_id--5006407,rf--wgg.html) and then tell her that I have two of those, and am in the process of getting yet another subwoofer from Rutledge Audio Design.

Jeff

If you could afford them, the M&K 150s would kick some serious butt! I've heard them before and for movies it's a very impressive set-up. Like most speakers, M&K's do sound the best when you're in the sweet spot. However, they do have very good off-axis response also. It's mostly because of the crossover they use and the dispersion pattern of the speakers themselves.

Think about this one. You could get a decent, small subwoofer to provide nice bass for the system. M&K, Sunfire, plus many others make subs that, while not neccesarily shaking the room, they do provide a nice solid bass response. Then, you could add a tactile sound transducer for under your seating and presto, earth-shaking bass that you can't tell where it's coming from.

Yeah, TTs are an investment I'm definitely planning on making at some point soon. Talk about "bang for your buck".

Jeff

I still say if she likes the looks of the studios, it shouldn't be to hard to sneak one of the PW2200 or the Servo 15's into the house. The PW2200 does go about 6hz lower the the servo (I was able to demo the two at my dealer using the B&K Ref 30's Hz generator. The servo 15 was able to drop down to about 26hz before we got noticable distortion. The PW2200 hit 19hz before it started to distort. Both seemed pretty accurate for the demo material I was listening to. In fact the PW2200 pretty much beat ever subwoofer with the exception of the SVS that I tested at home. (It went head to head with the top offerings from M&K, and Velodine but was half the price. (The demo was based partialy off of the B&KHz tones to find the "absolute bottom" of the sub, and material from episode I, the matrix, and Titan AE DVD's, the Organ Blaster CD and Koyaanisqatsi DVD-A's for response and overall sound.)

I'm telling you man, Find out what finish she likes for the paradigm's and then sell here on two "end tables" or matching "foot rests".

Jason

I like the look of the M&K and their set of bookshelf and in-walls look like they would be a natural. I am having trouble making contact with a retailer. I called the closest but there was never an answer. I also contacted the factory rep. in Georgia, but have not received a reply as yet. Because of the reports I have heard about the M&K 150s being so focused I would like hear them for myself and see how large the sweet spot is.

I'm not too worried about the subwoofer with the wife unless I go with SVS. She has grown accustomed to seing my 12" 250watt Acoustic Research sub sitting in the corner, so a box of any reasonable size will not be too much problem. The wife does like the look of the SVS SS which they can match the wood to our floors and cabinetry, but at $5'000 that's a fair bit more than I want to sink in a sub.

I thought of building a tactile transducer (TT) into the floor during construction. It would be perfect. I've got hardwood floors and my main seating area is about mid span on the 24 foot long floor trusses so the floor should move quite nicely. I left it out to keep the house budget on track. It can still be added later since I just have a garage down below. If you have ever seen the EFX show at the MGM out in Vegas you know how much fun a TT can be. There is nothing like a thousand TT's working in addition to the speakers (oh, the tall drink with a 151 floater didn't hurt either).

Why do I keep thinking of the scene from Howard Stern's Private Parts? Ya know, the one where Howard encourages one of his female listeners to lay her floorstanding speakers down on the floor....


Bad Jason, Wicked, Bad, Naughty Evil Jason.

Sorry Gonk....didn't mean to put words in your mouth.

Jason

I went and listened to the Paradigm. The dealer did not have their full line available to demo, but had a good setup in my price range. I listened to the Reference Studio 60 front towers, Servo 15 subwoofer and a pair of their lower end Performance ADP surrounds. I did not have time to "tweek" their system to my prefs., but they sounded pretty good. A nice warm sound for music. I would like more highs and a bit more punch in bass for HT, but that may just be the setup at that store. I looked at Klipsch at another store and never listened to B&W which they also carried. I think the B&W may get a bit pricey, but I'll try and give them a listen this coming week.

Man, listening to speakers is a slow process when everyone is an hour + away.

Keep that speaker advice coming. I think I'm getting closer.

Speaker ideas:

1. European speakers (B&W Nautilus 804, KEF 203, Sonus Faber Grand Pianos, Vienna Acoustics Beethovens, Monitor Audio Gold Ref 60) all sound great and can be found for around $2-$2.5k/pr slightly used on audiogon.com compared to about $3.5/pr at the stores.

2. The Onyx Rockets (av123.com) are similar to those above but much cheaper being manufacturer to consumer direct.

3. I heard the RF7 vs Paradigm Studio 100 and Monitor Silver in an A/B/C test. The RF7's are more efficient, brighter, and more dynamic. The Monitor Audio Silvers were richer sounding than the Paradigms. I thought all three were very different.

4. The used Klipschorns will provide a sound much different than all the speakers above...much more bass, detailed highs, and can run on 3 watt tube amps. If you don't have the corners for the KHorns (~$2k/pr) then the LaScala, Belles, Cornwalls are other options for this sound although less bass. You can compare a Klipsch RF7 at the store to the speakers in 1 to see if you like the horn sound.

5. The Martin Logan electrostatic hybrids provide awesome detail but there seems to be less midbass and the off-axis imaging isn't very good.

6. http://www.axiomaudio.com/ seem like another popular value brand.

7. There are many sub $1500 monitor/bookshelf speakers with a great neutral audiophile sound.

8. It is unbelievable how many options there are in speakers.

I've found buying slightly used speakers--especially those models that have long lifes provide a great value. You can buy a pair on audiogon and then sell them later for the same price if you want to change.

I tried finding a dealer for Definitive Tech. The closest one is about two hours away. I called the factory and they went through the list of who is authorized to sell what. Boy, if you want to keep your warantee they sure don't make it easy. This dealer can only sell the 350. This dealer can only sell these models....

The wife was not crazy about the looks of the Onyx speakers. In her words "what do you mean they only come in red wood or black wood "

I went to Audio Envy to see if there was anybody in my area willing to demo their SVS subwoofers. Well, I stopped checking out to 200 miles and there was still nobody.

Man it really stinks living out in the boonies sometimes...

Dane, I'm tellin ya, go with Adire Audio's Shiva for subwoofer. You will not regret it! Just log onto http://www.acoustic-visions.com and order a kit and they'll ship it to you. Not having much luck with the looks? There, you can get yourself a custom finished sub and it won't empty out your budget. Ok, what about the performance? I'd say its awesome. It will fill your room with rich and tight bass when you put music through it. It blends in well with my other speakers. Mine is tuned to around 18 HZ which you won't hear at that point but you will feel it. I watched Star Wars Episode II on DVD and at the beginning of this movie there is an explosion scene. I had an alarm clock sitting on top of my sub and it got tossed over the edge. The pictures on the wall got tilted from the shake. My sub weighs around 150 lbs. You can imagine the strength of the driver. Now I keep the volume low. You won't get that kind of performance from a sub unless you pay over $1,200 (may be more) nowadays. Mine coasted just over $400.

Why bother traveling to dealers for a sub? Save your time and spend it with your wife instead.

All this has been good reading. Question of my own: just received the 950/7100 combo and need to find rear surrounds for the "6th and 7th" of the "7.1"

Placement of the rears is tricky: back "wall" is the stairs of an open stairwell. Only 2 choices present themselves to me. One, hang the speakers from the ceiling or two, place 'em on the floor (with/without stands??). Either choice will still screw up symetrical placement due to the banister location( for floor) or the stairwell opening in the ceiling for the stairs (can't place it past the stairwell ceiling opening or some tall Hollander would bean themselves). Either placement will put the speakers approx. 5 feet behind my listening position.

Kevin B. et al on another thread suggested monopole speakers which I will do. Current speakers are all Cambridge Audio (Ensembles for the front stereo pair). Cambridge told me that they no longer make these but could substitute a pair of Movieworks that were quite similar sonically to the Ensembles.

Question: do I take Cambridge(these, like the Outlaw's are returnable for up to 45 days no questions asked) up on these or can I/should I look for other brand speakers? I have heard the Paradigm Cinema ADP's which are similar spec and size-wise to my front speakers except for the low freq. cut-off (mine-80 Hz, Para's- 100Hz) and they sound nice in the showroom. Also, I've read specs and reviews about Rockets and they sound interesting - probably the RS150's. These would be different from my fronts: ported, freq. resp. down to 48Hz (which I could adjust with the 950), 4X the volume and not workable in my situation to mounting from the ceiling--have to be on the floor (stands??) and very asymmetrical to my listening position (one would be 30 degrees off axis to my position and 5 feet away while the other would be 60 degrees off and 8 feet away).

Need suggestions--HELP-- since I've never worked with a 7.1 set-up's rear surrounds.


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OK goAVP, I'll check out Adire Audio's Shiva as soon as I finish typing this post.

I went and listened to B&W today. I listened to their Nautilus 802 tower, Nautilus 805 bookshelf, and their CMT 7NT towers. In general I like their higher frequencies while keeping a warmish mid-tone. The lower frequencies were a bit dissapointing on all but the very expensive 802 and that's not much of an issue since I will be using a sub.

One thing that did impress me was the sound of the B&W in-wall speakers. Yes, I know "in-walls suck" yadda, yadda, yadda... The dealer had a pair of their little CWM500 as main left & right and a CWM800 for the center channel with a sub. At very low volume there was nothing special but once it started to get up to normal TV volume it got better and by the time it was up to home theater volumes it was doing surprisingly well. When I mentioned this to the wife she was very excited that she would not have to decorate around tower speakers.

The wife wanted to have an entertainment center built and now I'm thinking of building in the in-wall speakers for the center and L & R. I thinking of the B&W Signature 7NT for the front left & right. The CWM Cinema for the center and then a pair of CWM 800 or CWM 650 for the side surrounds, and possibly a CWM Cinema for a single rear speaker in a 6.1 system. Anybody have thoughts on my all in-wall system??? Do you think the Outlaw 100 watt amp would be enough to drive them in a large room, or should I spend the other $1'000 for 200 watts per channel?

Oooh. I got a stiffie looking at the Acoustic Visions website. I'll try and give them a call tomorrow to price a sub package.

Thanks for the tip.

I wouldn't worry too much about in-walls "sucking". My mains and surrounds are M&K inwalls SW-95s and SW-85s, respectively. I tried like hell to audition the B&W Signature 7s but couldn't find them anywhere. They were on my short list with the M&Ks and Triads (which I couldn't find) based on this article:

http://www.keithyates.com/inwall3article.htm

Inwalls are inflexible and you can't really play with them in terms of placement. Otherwise, they aren't as lame as they used to be. My setup exceeded my expectations when construction was complete.

I gave a call to B&W technical support and they did not laugh when I told them my plan so at least that much is encouraging. I have a cabinet shop quoting on the entertainment center. The biggest problem I see is that B&W says the in-walls are designed to work with a 1'000 to 2'500 cubic inch enclosure size (and they recommended adding some fiberglass or rock wool to help dampen a bit). So far all my cabinet designes have much larger volumes (10'000 cubic inch (24"wide X 18" high X 18" deep approx). Does anybody know what effect it will have? I can have a rear baffle built built in to cut the volume if needed, but I'd like to know if it's needed before I go to the trouble.

Speaker enclosure size plays a very important role for woofers. Each brand and size of driver has it's own physical properties and depends on the size of enclosure (air volume), it will either bring out the optimum sound or a junky sound. I'd recommend these two sites for info on speaker design.
http://www.speakerbuilder.net/web_files/
http://home.earthlink.net/~etunstal/diy.htm

Speaker design is a very complex work, in my opinion. I've built 2 so far. I'd say get the ones that are already designed (or built) and tested. If you don't get the enclosure volume precisely for that particular driver and the crossover, you may end up with a big disappointment. Its not worth while to mess with it. Let the pros handle it.

Well, I've gone with the in-wall speakers, much to my wifes pleasure. I've got B&W Signature 7NT's for the front left & right, a CWM Cinema for the center, CWM 800 for side surrounds and CWM 650 for the rears. My new Outlaw 950 pre, and 770 amp arrived a couple days ago.

The first night, like a kid at Christmas, I took the speakers out of their box and wired them up directly. Big mistake. Nothing worse than spending gobs-o-money and having it sound like %&#$. I took a deep breath and finally went to sleep. The next morning I installed the side and rear surrounds. I have the rear ones in a vertical section of our vaulted ceiling so they back up into the attic (not a closed wall cavity). I built some speaker boxes (1'650 cu/in) out of scrap 3/4" OSB. The side surrounds were easier since they went into standard wall cavities. The only "gotcha" is that one wall is an interior (hollow) and the other is exterior (filled with fiberglass). I stuffed some insulation in the hollow wall above and below the speaker and they both sound reasonable balanced. I'll have to come back to that later and do some fine tweeking.

I'm having an entertainment center built (I can build anything out of metal but can't do much with wood) to hold the front L & R and center channels. Each speaker enclosure has a volume of about 9'500 cu/in (which I may have to reduce). I'm still waiting for the cabinetry, so I can't get too serious about sound yet. The center channel speaker is magnetically sheiled so I'm not to nervous there, but the left & right are not sheilded. I am keeping my fingers crossed that I have them far enough away from the TV (rainbows are pretty but not on my monitor).

I'll keep everyone posted. Right now I'm figuring out the 950 and it's remote. My initial gut feeling is that I'm happy I went with the bigger amp. The speakers seem to love (and require) lots of power.

Dane, any updates on subwoofer?

Well, I've got the entertainment center in the house and installed all the in-wall speakers, and hooked up my new 950 & 970.

It sounds pretty bad at all but monster sound levels. Most of my testing is on music where the problem is more pronounced than with a movie. Everything appears to be functioning, but is lacking in the middle tones (almost like a 3 way speaker missing it's middle speaker). I have spoken with the B&W tech support and have reviewed all the enclosure volumes for my speakers. I have run the system with and without the sub. I've tried running each pair of speakers on their own to isolate any problems. Now I am trying to break the speakers in quickly by running it while I'm away at work. Heck, I've even started reading the manual for my 950!!!

The speakers have about 10 hours of moderate use on them and the highs have softened a bit. I almost think there is something I'm doing wrong with the 950. I've adjusted the trebble and bass through the onscreen menus, but I'm still missing the middle. The sound is similar across all the surround modes.

Oh, the wife is happy. She loves the in-walls since there are no speakers around the room.

Hi Dane-- earlier you said: If your mains are the B&W CDM 7NT series and you have put them in a cabinet, that will definately contribute to your problem. These are a vented box design that is ported front and rear. These types of speakers are designed to be installed at least 18'-24" away from the nearest reflective surfaces, like walls, etc. My guess is you have an abundance of muddy (boomy) base which is smothering the midrange. You need to get them out in the open so they can "breathe"! (My apologies if I have misunderstood where you have located your mains or if they are a model I am not familiar with.) Best wishes, and good luck!

I agree with the speaker placement. Almost any speaker, ported or not, needs to be properly positioned (usually certain distances from surrounding walls and distance apart). At times this is not convenient and the sound becomes very compromised.

Hi Dane, With all your detail on your speaker choice TT’s and setup, I assume you’ve used an SPL meter to calibrate the speakers? If done already, - I’m sure Steve’s and MCH comments will help with what needs to be done.

If not you can get some really ‘flat’ sound out the system, until the speakers are calibrated. Which could contribute to the end result when combined with other needed adjustments such as enclosure or placement.

Here's what I've got from B&W:
center: CWM Cinema
Front Left & Right: Signature 7NT
Side Left & Right: CWM 800
Back Left & Right: CWM 650

All of the speakers are "in-walls" so they are intended to be mounted in an unported enclosure (your wall). Do you think a port in the rear would help clear up the bass and let the mid-range come through?

B&W tech support says that they are designed for an infinite case volume so the size of the enclosure should not matter. They also mentioned that a smaller enclosure will be tighter and more accurate while a larger volume will increase the bass but it will be less accurate. They also suggested filling (or at least partially) the enclosure to help dampen and negate the enclosures affect.

So far I have only tried filling my enclosure about 1/4 of the way with fiberglass. I'll try filling it more. It would be a pain, but I can install an internal baffle to cut their volume if the fiberglass does not help.

Thanks for the clarification Dane. I have not heard of the "Signature 7NT" in-wall speakers and thought perhaps you were referring to the standard 7NT model- hence my apologies in advance. I would guess they are not designed to be mounted in a ported enclosure (or wall) if they are true "in-walls". Take SLL's advice and calibrate using the Radio Shack meter-- it will make a big difference in performance. Keep working at it- hopefully it will all gel for you soon.

I have the system calibrated. I used the Avia CD and the Radio Shack audio meter. First, on the video side there was very little to do to the 40" Sony XBR TV. It was in very good calibration right out of the box, just a few tweeks.

I had a little more to do with the audio set-up. Side-to-side things were good, but I did have to add a couple db to the rear pairs. I also had to turn the sub way down.

I am having trouble getting good performance out of my sub now that I have changed everything (new: speakers, Outlaw pre & amp and put a big entertainment center right next to it). I am testing the B&W speakers with and without the sub to make sure it is not part of the problem. I am also starting to move the sub around looking for a better spot. It's hard surfaces on four sides, so it's coming through pretty strong.

Well, dampening the enclosures is working. I am now playing with varying amounts of fiberglass and different densities of foam to control the sound. It seems that the in-walls don't like having much of an enclosure behind them at all. Right now I've got the enclosure space about 60 filled with fiberglass (regular house insulation) and 15% open cell foam (used for upholstry). I need to get more materials to continue testing, but having a variety of materials (different densities) seems to give the best sound. At least it has improved to the point that I am no longer embarassed at having spent so much money. My wife is happy with the appearance, and finally I am getting happy with the sound. I had a dramatic improvement when I moved the sub about two feet. I still get the boost from the floor and wall, but getting it away from the back wall and entertainment center removed the boomieness.

If you need to seperate your sub from the floor, I can't recommend the Auralex GRAMMA strongly enough. For only $50, you will be amazed at the difference in the sound. Of course, it does add a small platform to your room which probably would not go well with the WAF. But part of it is purple!!

If you need more options on speaker damping material, you can check out this site:
www.partsexpress.com

Well, I'm still working on my B&W in walls. So, the saga continues....

The speakers are starting to sound good with movies. The biggest breakthrough came when I discovered a little setting on my dvd player that switches the optical output to allow an external device do the Dolby processing. I noticed that whatever dvd was in the player, I was never able to access the digital surround modes on my 950. I changed the setting, and all of a sudden my 950 has several other surround modes. Imagine that!!!

When the dvd player was doing the decoding the action in a movie was rather low while the music came through loud and clear. It had surround features, but not worth the money. When I switched the dvd player to let the 950 do the thinking everything came alive. The action sound are crisp and clear and the music is well defined and properly balanced with the other sounds.

I bit the bullet and reduced the enclosure volume on my front L & R and center channel. They were previously about 5'000 to 6'000 cubic inches and I added an interior partition to bring the volume down to 2'000 cubic inches. I put fiberglass insulation (compressed to about double it's normal density) in half of the remaining enclosure volume. The bass is much tighter, the highs continue to be strong and the mid-tones are coming through stronger.

It is an improvement over the huge enclosure volume with lots of insulation and foam, but I am getting diminishing returns. I tested the Austin Powers Gold Member DVD and the sound was very good, especially considering my huge, odd shaped room. Music is also improved though not to true audiophile levels.

.

Wayne, It's funny you mentioned filling the enclosure completely, I'm slowly coming to that conclusion.

One of my side surrounds is in an exterior wall that is tightly filled with insulation and the other is in an empty interior wall. I cut out a pocket in the insulation the size of the speaker in the exterior wall I did put a "plug" of insulation above and below the speaker in the hollow interior wall (but I pushed the insulation up/down to create a cavity about 18" high). There is a noticable difference in the sound. I think some is due to the encosure volume and some is due to the sheetrock vibrating. The insulation seems to add support to the sheetrock and stiffen the enclosure, but I'm sure the smaller volume helps tighten the speaker's responce. I do notice that the side speaker with a larger enclosure can play lower bass, but it seems more loose. They have 8" woofers so they still play low enough, even with the minimal/no enclosure volume.

The funny thing about all of this is that when I spoke with B&W tech. support they said the speakers wanted to have an enclosure volume of about 2'500 cubic inches, but then went on to suggest "stuffing some insulation in there...".

Dane,...
How dod this all come out in the end? I'm dealing with an in wall delema. I would guess, you have it hammered out, or in the street by this time. Did the big amp help or hinder your in wall tuning so to speak? I'm on the fence about an amp, and you experience is good info. I would love to hear how you worked it all out,...
Thanks GRCRY,...>>>--->

First, let me say again that going in wall was a mediated settlement involving many lawyers.

I've grown to love the B&W in wall system. The wife is happy and the seven in wall speakers provide excellent surround sound. I have not upgraded my sub yet (bought a new pinball machine) but once I do that it will be perfect.

I live in the middle of nowhere so I had very limited chances to listen to speakers in person. The only ones I really got a chance to demo were the Paridigm and B&W. My buy decision was probably influenced by the B&W dealers better demo.

As for the 200 watts of Outlaw power... When I was breaking in the speakers I turned it up half way to 0db and left the house to work in the yard (the windows and doors were closed) the guys working on the heavy equipment logging a 1/4 mile away asked about the party Every time we watch a movie half the pictures in the house are crooked and every candle, flower pot, and decorative thingy has rubber feet. The sound is crisp, clear and un-distorted beyond the point of pain. I'm not sure if the 100w amp would have been enough, but the big monster (770) has shown no sign of weakness.

Feel free to e-mail me directly if you have any detailed questions.

dane.deal@worldnet.att.net

Hi Dane,

New to the forum here but I've enjoyed reading your saga. I'm glad you have made peace with in-walls. Halfway down the replies I was convinced you would never get happy with them as I, personally, have never met a set of in-walls that pleased me.

As to subs, take a look at VMPS if you think the WAF can be manipulated a bit. I use the "Larger" subwoofer which may be a bit too much bass for your taste and the cabinet will def be too much for your wife. But Brian makes two smaller models and even the smallest blows away virtually everything else on the market including SVS. If you are even a little bit handy, he sells a nice kit that you can assemble in an hour or so. Compared to many "HT" subs, the VMPS will also complement your pure audio system.

Good luck and good viewing/listening.

------------------
The Nice Guy with the Good Ears.
"The human capacity for self-delusion is nearly boundless."

My adventure with speakers was different. Since I'm a musician I had some Mackie powered monitors hooked up to my small studio. I've always been amazed at how great those black boxes sounded. To make a long story short, I now have five Mackies and the Outlaw lfm hooked directly to my 950. Audio bliss! From an absolutely silent, black background the music seems to float in and around the speakers, effortlessly and musically, the way the Cleveland Orchestra sounds in Severance Hall. Adding the Brick Wall two months ago really moved things up a notch or two, as well. Anyone else using powered monitors besides your lfm's?

Jay