I went and listened to the Paradigm. The dealer did not have their full line available to demo, but had a good setup in my price range. I listened to the Reference Studio 60 front towers, Servo 15 subwoofer and a pair of their lower end Performance ADP surrounds. I did not have time to "tweek" their system to my prefs., but they sounded pretty good. A nice warm sound for music. I would like more highs and a bit more punch in bass for HT, but that may just be the setup at that store. I looked at Klipsch at another store and never listened to B&W which they also carried. I think the B&W may get a bit pricey, but I'll try and give them a listen this coming week.

Man, listening to speakers is a slow process when everyone is an hour + away.

Keep that speaker advice coming. I think I'm getting closer.

Speaker ideas:

1. European speakers (B&W Nautilus 804, KEF 203, Sonus Faber Grand Pianos, Vienna Acoustics Beethovens, Monitor Audio Gold Ref 60) all sound great and can be found for around $2-$2.5k/pr slightly used on audiogon.com compared to about $3.5/pr at the stores.

2. The Onyx Rockets (av123.com) are similar to those above but much cheaper being manufacturer to consumer direct.

3. I heard the RF7 vs Paradigm Studio 100 and Monitor Silver in an A/B/C test. The RF7's are more efficient, brighter, and more dynamic. The Monitor Audio Silvers were richer sounding than the Paradigms. I thought all three were very different.

4. The used Klipschorns will provide a sound much different than all the speakers above...much more bass, detailed highs, and can run on 3 watt tube amps. If you don't have the corners for the KHorns (~$2k/pr) then the LaScala, Belles, Cornwalls are other options for this sound although less bass. You can compare a Klipsch RF7 at the store to the speakers in 1 to see if you like the horn sound.

5. The Martin Logan electrostatic hybrids provide awesome detail but there seems to be less midbass and the off-axis imaging isn't very good.

6. http://www.axiomaudio.com/ seem like another popular value brand.

7. There are many sub $1500 monitor/bookshelf speakers with a great neutral audiophile sound.

8. It is unbelievable how many options there are in speakers.

I've found buying slightly used speakers--especially those models that have long lifes provide a great value. You can buy a pair on audiogon and then sell them later for the same price if you want to change.

I tried finding a dealer for Definitive Tech. The closest one is about two hours away. I called the factory and they went through the list of who is authorized to sell what. Boy, if you want to keep your warantee they sure don't make it easy. This dealer can only sell the 350. This dealer can only sell these models....

The wife was not crazy about the looks of the Onyx speakers. In her words "what do you mean they only come in red wood or black wood "

I went to Audio Envy to see if there was anybody in my area willing to demo their SVS subwoofers. Well, I stopped checking out to 200 miles and there was still nobody.

Man it really stinks living out in the boonies sometimes...

Dane, I'm tellin ya, go with Adire Audio's Shiva for subwoofer. You will not regret it! Just log onto http://www.acoustic-visions.com and order a kit and they'll ship it to you. Not having much luck with the looks? There, you can get yourself a custom finished sub and it won't empty out your budget. Ok, what about the performance? I'd say its awesome. It will fill your room with rich and tight bass when you put music through it. It blends in well with my other speakers. Mine is tuned to around 18 HZ which you won't hear at that point but you will feel it. I watched Star Wars Episode II on DVD and at the beginning of this movie there is an explosion scene. I had an alarm clock sitting on top of my sub and it got tossed over the edge. The pictures on the wall got tilted from the shake. My sub weighs around 150 lbs. You can imagine the strength of the driver. Now I keep the volume low. You won't get that kind of performance from a sub unless you pay over $1,200 (may be more) nowadays. Mine coasted just over $400.

Why bother traveling to dealers for a sub? Save your time and spend it with your wife instead.

All this has been good reading. Question of my own: just received the 950/7100 combo and need to find rear surrounds for the "6th and 7th" of the "7.1"

Placement of the rears is tricky: back "wall" is the stairs of an open stairwell. Only 2 choices present themselves to me. One, hang the speakers from the ceiling or two, place 'em on the floor (with/without stands??). Either choice will still screw up symetrical placement due to the banister location( for floor) or the stairwell opening in the ceiling for the stairs (can't place it past the stairwell ceiling opening or some tall Hollander would bean themselves). Either placement will put the speakers approx. 5 feet behind my listening position.

Kevin B. et al on another thread suggested monopole speakers which I will do. Current speakers are all Cambridge Audio (Ensembles for the front stereo pair). Cambridge told me that they no longer make these but could substitute a pair of Movieworks that were quite similar sonically to the Ensembles.

Question: do I take Cambridge(these, like the Outlaw's are returnable for up to 45 days no questions asked) up on these or can I/should I look for other brand speakers? I have heard the Paradigm Cinema ADP's which are similar spec and size-wise to my front speakers except for the low freq. cut-off (mine-80 Hz, Para's- 100Hz) and they sound nice in the showroom. Also, I've read specs and reviews about Rockets and they sound interesting - probably the RS150's. These would be different from my fronts: ported, freq. resp. down to 48Hz (which I could adjust with the 950), 4X the volume and not workable in my situation to mounting from the ceiling--have to be on the floor (stands??) and very asymmetrical to my listening position (one would be 30 degrees off axis to my position and 5 feet away while the other would be 60 degrees off and 8 feet away).

Need suggestions--HELP-- since I've never worked with a 7.1 set-up's rear surrounds.


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OK goAVP, I'll check out Adire Audio's Shiva as soon as I finish typing this post.

I went and listened to B&W today. I listened to their Nautilus 802 tower, Nautilus 805 bookshelf, and their CMT 7NT towers. In general I like their higher frequencies while keeping a warmish mid-tone. The lower frequencies were a bit dissapointing on all but the very expensive 802 and that's not much of an issue since I will be using a sub.

One thing that did impress me was the sound of the B&W in-wall speakers. Yes, I know "in-walls suck" yadda, yadda, yadda... The dealer had a pair of their little CWM500 as main left & right and a CWM800 for the center channel with a sub. At very low volume there was nothing special but once it started to get up to normal TV volume it got better and by the time it was up to home theater volumes it was doing surprisingly well. When I mentioned this to the wife she was very excited that she would not have to decorate around tower speakers.

The wife wanted to have an entertainment center built and now I'm thinking of building in the in-wall speakers for the center and L & R. I thinking of the B&W Signature 7NT for the front left & right. The CWM Cinema for the center and then a pair of CWM 800 or CWM 650 for the side surrounds, and possibly a CWM Cinema for a single rear speaker in a 6.1 system. Anybody have thoughts on my all in-wall system??? Do you think the Outlaw 100 watt amp would be enough to drive them in a large room, or should I spend the other $1'000 for 200 watts per channel?

Oooh. I got a stiffie looking at the Acoustic Visions website. I'll try and give them a call tomorrow to price a sub package.

Thanks for the tip.

I wouldn't worry too much about in-walls "sucking". My mains and surrounds are M&K inwalls SW-95s and SW-85s, respectively. I tried like hell to audition the B&W Signature 7s but couldn't find them anywhere. They were on my short list with the M&Ks and Triads (which I couldn't find) based on this article:

http://www.keithyates.com/inwall3article.htm

Inwalls are inflexible and you can't really play with them in terms of placement. Otherwise, they aren't as lame as they used to be. My setup exceeded my expectations when construction was complete.

I gave a call to B&W technical support and they did not laugh when I told them my plan so at least that much is encouraging. I have a cabinet shop quoting on the entertainment center. The biggest problem I see is that B&W says the in-walls are designed to work with a 1'000 to 2'500 cubic inch enclosure size (and they recommended adding some fiberglass or rock wool to help dampen a bit). So far all my cabinet designes have much larger volumes (10'000 cubic inch (24"wide X 18" high X 18" deep approx). Does anybody know what effect it will have? I can have a rear baffle built built in to cut the volume if needed, but I'd like to know if it's needed before I go to the trouble.

Speaker enclosure size plays a very important role for woofers. Each brand and size of driver has it's own physical properties and depends on the size of enclosure (air volume), it will either bring out the optimum sound or a junky sound. I'd recommend these two sites for info on speaker design.
http://www.speakerbuilder.net/web_files/
http://home.earthlink.net/~etunstal/diy.htm

Speaker design is a very complex work, in my opinion. I've built 2 so far. I'd say get the ones that are already designed (or built) and tested. If you don't get the enclosure volume precisely for that particular driver and the crossover, you may end up with a big disappointment. Its not worth while to mess with it. Let the pros handle it.