Due to monetary constraints, our only choices are the Bose Acoustimass 6 or the Onkyo SKSHT500 5.1 surround sound speakers. These are available at similar price ranges. I've heard bad things about BOSE and mediocre things about Onkyo speakers. Does anyone have anything good to say about either system?


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Konrad.Berk@Carefirst.com

[This message has been edited by Konrad (edited March 19, 2003).]

[This message has been edited by Konrad (edited March 19, 2003).]

I'm not familiar with the Onkyo systems, but I have heard Bose, and they are......are......not-so-good...

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The Soundhound Theater

[This message has been edited by soundhound (edited March 19, 2003).]

I never have liked Bose, they always seem expensive. Maybe for that same money you could try the Paradigm "Atom" Ive heard it as a surround system and liked it alot. BUT you will need a sub.

I concur. Name your price range and your room specifications, and I guarantee we can find you better speakers for the money. Certainly, Paradigm speakers would be one brand I'd suggest. Others would include PSB, Energy, and the speakers my friend Brian makes at http://www.rutledgeaudiodesign.com .

Jeff

Price range around $300.00. I know that's not a lot but . . . What do you suggest?

1) I do not recommend Bose at any price range. Owned them, used them, don't recommend them. Paradigm has been recommended already, and as a Paradigm owner I concur. Energy and Boston Acoustics are also popular, to name a few.

2) Budget is $300 for surround sound? Tough... I may have to poke around some...

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gonk -- Saloon Links | Pre/Pro Comparison Chart | 950 Review

Please listen to all of the above and don't get Bose. You'll be throwing your $$ out the window, and thats never a good thing

Okay. I just got off the telephone with Brian from Rutledge Audio in Georgia. He was very patient with me and clarified what we have just purchased.

It seems the JVC player we purchased is fine. It only powers five speakers though. That means we'd have to double-up one of the output ports to power all the speakers. Or we would need a self-powered subwoofer. Further, he explained that the Onkyo speakers don't have the tonal range (measured in kHz) that a higher end speaker might. He did this by reviewing the specifications of the Onkyo's and item-by-item comparing them with higher end speakers.

His store makes its own. He is an electronic savvy cabinet maker. We discussed how the Circuit City/Best Buy's of the world mass market speakers from particle board. (His are wood.) He suggested that unless we had real money, we should ditch the surround sound idea. His speakers would carry more than the Onkyo's even by buying two of his M-1 Monitors. He said then, if we really wanted surround sound, buy a third M-1 and two RAD Micros for the rear. That would really blow away the competition, and with quality workmanship to boot.

I'm guessing you don't have the amp or reciever either? If you did, you could get two of the nice brands people have mentioned and worry about adding surround speakers later. Also, you could get just the two speakers from the good company and get some cheap bookshelf speakers, like from Radio Shack, to use for surrounds. If the system is just for movies, the surrounds aren't as important as your two front channels. The only other concern with that plan would be the center channel as that is an important part of a multi-channel system.

If you're looking at HTIB systems, Onkyo's gets a higher rating because it comes with a receiver that allows one to use different components with it. This is a huge advantage over a Bose system where you are stuck with those specific speakers and components for as long as you own it.

Cambridge Soundworks also makes some smaller HTIB systems that are also nice for the reason stated above.

Well you folks are really nice in helping me to sort out the information.

We bought the receiver/DVD player (a JVC RXDV3SL)and the Onkyo speakers decribed above. This was before we did the research. Both are returnable and haven't been opened.

If we went with the two quality speakers from Rutledge, then what happens to the center channel that is claimed to be so important?

OK, I've done some quick scheming here...

The Bose AM6 sells for around $600. The Onkyo sells for $300 at Circuit City, and appears to have gotten some pretty decent reviews at CNet . I'd suggest trying to demo the Onkyo's, but it will be very difficult to do in an environment like Circuit City. Their specs certainly look better than anything Bose has available, and in the price range they are probably as good as you will find.

If your budget allows a bit more, then I would definitely suggest looking into something like the Paradigm Atoms (~$180/pair, potentially less depending on the dealer you get) or some of the other Paradigm recommended systems . There's also the Cheap Home Theater suggesting of JBL's N24 , or the Energy Take 5 or Boston Acoustics Micros (some of the smaller Micros might be an option to set alongside the Onyko package).

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gonk -- Saloon Links | Pre/Pro Comparison Chart | 950 Review

[This message has been edited by gonk (edited March 19, 2003).]

Heh... Nevermind my previous post...

The Onkyo's include a powered subwoofer, so the combination of it and the JVC should work just fine. As Jason J mentioned, the JVC does allow for additional devices to be used with it (so you could add a different DVD player, a satellite or cable box, or a VCR). It does not have a 6-channel analog input, so DVD-Audio and SACD can't be added to it.

The Rutledge speakers look pretty nice, and D'Arbignal has proven to be pretty well-informed in the past. If you did get just a pair of the M-1's now, you will be operating in a purely stereo mode until you add additional speakers -- without a center and surrounds, you will want to leave the JVC in stereo mode at all times. When you added the center and surrounds later, you would be able to begin taking advantage of the surround sound. This is a route that offers less immediate gratification, but does allow for better speakers by spreading out the cost -- and you could use that approach while purchasing another brand like Paradigm or Polk or Klipsh or ... (you get the idea).

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gonk -- Saloon Links | Pre/Pro Comparison Chart | 950 Review

Konrad, I suggest you purchase as good a pair of speakers as you can afford-- for now. Consider taking your JVC unit back and buying the Model 1050. You can buy a DVD player for as little as $70.00. Then, as Gonk says, add the surrounds when you can afford it. Finally, the center. You can get by without the center to start with. When you're ready, add a subwoofer. You can find them for as little as $150.00 or so. You will be much happier in the long run! Best wishes...

[This message has been edited by steves (edited March 19, 2003).]

You all are toooooo good. Would you believe that in the Circuit City Web site, there was no mention that the Onkyo subwoofer actually is self-powered? That changes my thinking a bit, although it clearly is a mass produced piece of . . . whatever.

I now have some soul searching to do. Do I buy the good merchandise and add on when I get more money? Or do I stick and pay the dues to my children's education fund (otherwise known as the black hole)?

Thanks to you all. You are gems.

Konrad,

I think you'll be very happy with the M-1 Monitors. In fact, just to illustrate a point, I used to have some Bose speakers in my bedroom (bought 10+ years ago, back when I thought Bose was good) and I have since replaced the Bose with the M-1 Monitors and a C-1 Center (on order). The sound quality is very much improved, and I'm really happy with the looks too. I can't wait until my center arrives! :-)

Brian really knows what he's talking about. He's a regular over at the SMR Forums (http://forums.smr-forums.com:8080/ ) and his advice about speaker design is highly-regarded there.

Take care,

Jeff

By the way, with regard to getting a bad subwoofer or good monitors, I'd go with the good monitors. Nothing will hurt your sound more than bad bass, in my opinion. Shallow bass is bad, but thumpy, uneven bass is even worse.

Also, most of the brands that have been discussed (including the Rutledge Audio Design ones) offer pretty good bass extension for monitors. I know that the Paradigm Titans has surprisingly good bass, and the Rutledge Audio M-1 Monitors have smooth extension down to 60 hz.

I agree with the others: I'd go with the good speakers now, and then add on components as more money becomes available. I've never regretted buying nice gear, even if it was a strain on the budget at the time. I have regretted buying low-quality gear to save money, though.

Jeff

Personally I can go either of two ways; (1) So cheap I don't mind completely losing the 'investment' later or (2) Get what I want. If I try to tread some middle ground I'm almost invariably disappointed.

True enough. Although sometimes the cheap and the expensive can surprise you.

I mean, look at Outlaw: cheap.

Look at Bose: expensive.

'nuff said.



Jeff

Very true. Makes things simpler when (rarely) that's the case.

Between 3:00 and 3:30 PM yesterday Gonk did a total flip (with a half twist I guess). Now I know you can't take back what you said, but the Onkyo's do have surround and CNET says they're an okay value considering the budget.

Then the world turned to quality stereo (rather than "ok" surround), adding on the surround part later.

Please tell, how does quality stereo beat okay surround - assuming "later" might never come?

[This message has been edited by Konrad (edited March 20, 2003).]

[This message has been edited by Konrad (edited March 20, 2003).]

I did get a bit confused yesterday afternoon -- had a reply "in progress" for a while, then after I posted it found that the thread had continued in the interim. At first I thought that it had moved off in a completely different direction (the consult with the guy at Rutledge, ...). After I replied again, I realized that the situation hadn't really changed any and my 3:06 post was actually still on topic. Let's see if I can untangle my reasoning a bit before I dash off to a pre-bid meeting.

If the decision were Bose AM6 or Onkyo SKS-HT500, I'd recommend the Onkyo in a heartbeat -- half the money, and a fundamentally better design approach (1" tweeters and either 4" or 5-1/4" woofers in the satellites plus a powered sub with an 8" cone is simply a more traditional and better approach to sound reproduction than Bose's 2-1/4" paper cones and their passive bass module). Plus they actually just specs for frequency response, even if I do question the 35kHz upper limit (the human ear generally can't hear above 20kHz, and very few speakers at any price range claim much frequency response above 20-22kHz). You get what you pay for, of course, so it is likely that build quality will be a bit on the cheap side. Going with something like the Rudledge speakers or a better speaker brand like Paradigm or Boston Acoustics will get you better sound, but we also have to keep a few other things in mind. First, with an all-in-one receiver and DVD player like the JVC, we are relying on a fairly entry-level front end to drive these things. This does make a difference. In all likelihood pairing the JVC up with something like Paradigm Reference or B&W speakers would leave the speakers limited by the receiver. With the budget you currently have available, you are left with two options, as you have already figured out. (1) Go with the Onkyo right now, with will likely give about the best bang for your buck for surround sound right now, or (2) go with a pair of better speakers now and deny yourself surround sound for a while until you can budget money for more speakers. If you have any old speakers lying around, you could press them into service as surrounds and live without a center and sub for a while. The center can be approximated by the two better front speakers you would buy (it's often referred to as a "phantom" center, and some people even prefer this arrangement). The lack of a sub would mean the lowest couple of octaves would be left out of your movies. If you don't have any speakers around now that could be used for surround, the question really boils down to whether or not you want to wait to enjoy surround and whether or not you think you'll be in a position to ever go back and buy more speakers. If you bought the JVC in order to enjoy watching movies in surround sound, you may (understandably) not want to end up with just two speakers, no matter how good they are. Charlie summed it up pretty well yesterday:



The Onkyo's are probably the least expensive surround speaker package (short of buying one of the 5.1 computer speaker packages) that you will likely find. You could hang onto the box(es), and if you decided to invest in better gear later you could go to eBay and sell the Onkyos -- and probably recoup a fair percent of your original investment in the process.

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gonk -- Saloon Links | Pre/Pro Comparison Chart | 950 Review

[This message has been edited by gonk (edited March 20, 2003).]

I'd steer clear of the Onkyo speakers. Onkyo is a good brand, but only for its electronics. In general (though not always) electronics manufacturers tend to make crummy speakers and speaker manufactuers tend to make crummy electronics. It's a question of specialization.

That being the case, I'd really recommend avoiding the Onkyo speakers and definitely the Bose. I'd stick to the brands we discussed: the RAD, the Paradigm, PSB, Energy, and the like.

Of course, it's your money, and it's up to you how you spend it, but you're asking us and we're telling ya.

As for whether good stereo is better than bad surround, I say yes in a heartbeat. What do you think is more involving: really good sound and music coming from in front of you or really bad sound and music coming from all around you?

Seriously, with good stereo speakers, you also can get a very full sound, especially if you take the time to position them correctly.

Jeff

Personally if I had $300-400 in budget I'd listen to the Onkyo vs. whatever better brands are convenient, then think about the following:

• Do I notice a lot of improvement?
• Am I likely to be unhappy with the Onkyo system soon?
• If so, how long can I live with them?
• Will my financial situation allow me to walk away from the Onkyo system at some future time without feeling too much pain?

IMO buying the Onkyo system might not be a bad move, and here's why; If you're not even sure what you want or like perhaps it's too early in the game to make a large financial commitment. In entering many hobbies/pastimes it is often a good idea to buy something cheap (but not too horrible) to get a feel for what your personal tastes are before making large choices.

Would you rather sell this cheap surround system later on eBay and lose $150 or try to sell a set of 'better' speakers you decided don't fit your taste?

In the end you pay your $$$ and make your choice, and both paths have merit. If you do want to go with 'better' speakers, maybe you might look at something quite small and inexpensive from a brand that has a set of larger monitors you like. That way, your upgrade path is clear - move your first set to surround duty and get the larger mains at upgrade time.

Stretching your budget in an area where you have little experience can be a source of dissatisfaction later.

As always, YMMV, IMO, etc.

Door number one; no # two; no # one. I just read a comment on www.ecoustics.com which stated it clearly.

"I have an ONKYO SR600 receiver and the SKS-HT500 speakers. While they do a great job for movies they are just not good enough for music. I am worried that my choices may have to take into account that the Onkyo speakers are quite inefficient around 86db. I Like the Klipsch RF3II's, but am told they are too efficient for the other speakers and will drown them out. Any ideas?"

Now this person had a more high-end amplifier also. So his is probably more capable of handling the better speakers. As Gonk said above, "We are relying on a fairly entry-level front end to drive these things. This does make a difference."

So am I really trying to get ahead by starting behind? Or by getting ahead of the curve with quality stereo speakers will I remain behind because of the mediocre driver?

I kind of like the idea of hearing good music AND movies but I probably watch more TV than I should. So forgoing the movies to hear the music is a tough call.

As a matter of course, you folks have really had great impact on the decision making. It's too bad I'm such an invertebrate. I want my cake and not a lemon cake.

Gonk is right regarding the receiver, but ITOH the speakers will make orders of magnitude more difference. As a data point, picking a high dollar amp from a decent receiver in a double blind test has proven problematic for even the most golden eared listeners, while almost anyone can distinguish between even fairly good speakers without too much trouble.

Many receivers offer gain compensation on the various channels to allow balancing of more sensitive or proximate speakers to less sensitive speakers. And, a sensitive speaker will squeeze the most volume (obviously) from a low powered amp. Be aware that it might also highlight issues that a less sensitive speaker might mask.

Konrad,

By all means, take your time. It's your system, and you're going to be the one who has to pay for it and you're going to be the one who has to listen to it. You're perfectly justified in taking your time in making the decision.

But just remember, buying a piece of garbage on sale doesn't make it a bargain. No matter what you spend, make sure that you're going to be happy with what you get, or else it's no bargain at any price.

Take care,

Jeff

Konrad,
Jeff is right on.

You say you have your system already purchased and unopened. If you got it at Circuit City, you can return it within 30 days, if I'm not mistaken. Set it up and see if you like it. If not take it back.

All the points everyone has made on this thread are valid. But, you may just find that this system works fine for you.

Ron

And the ideas just keep on coming. Yes, I have reviewed all you comments and - as a Gemini - listened well.

What I haven't told you is the complete personal side of the story. In January, 2002, my house burned down. The purchase was forced by insurance requirements and constraints. As of this date, I have yet to move back into the house so I can't even listen to the system I purchased. I'm guessing on another month before move-in and even then I will hardly have time to eat, sleep, and work, so setting up the audio might be slower than desired.

Given my wife's deaf ear and my need for audio-visual stimulation, I am doing just what you all suggested. I am keeping the purchase. Though I have found both components cheaper on Ebay, I figure the new box will give me some piece of mind at least. If anything is intolerable, well I can go sell it on the mountain (Ebay of course). Then I'll have to go with your higher end suggestions.

Thanks again.

[This message has been edited by Konrad (edited March 26, 2003).]

Konrad,

As long as you're happy, we're happy.

Jeff