I'm a total Outlaw fan. My brother has the 1050 and now that I'm in the market to replace my Kenwood with a real receiver, the 1070 excites me. However, the fact that it doesn't have HDMI does bug me. I know I know, I could use the DVI but then I'll also have to run audio cables as well and I'm trying to keep cabling to a minimum. And is it really true that if I want to see the OSD I'll have to use S-Video? Seems like more of a pain in the ass to keep switching between inputs to see the OSD and back to HD video feeds. The main reason I'm looking for a new receiver is to use it as the main hub for my whole entertainment center.
Anyone know when these issues will be resolved?

I think you’ll find, at least for a while yet, that even those receivers that presently tout HDMI connections have yet to fully implement audio over HDMI as currently planned. Until the audio portion of the standard is established, recognized and finds its way into the market, any receiver purchased now will require plenty of audio cables in addition to video. In the meantime, HDMI and DVI are equivalent when used for the video signal.

As to the OSD, there are some receivers that convert their analog OSD signal to HDMI. I guess the question is, how often do you need to see the receiver’s OSD information? If you are a constant tweaker or you find that you nearly always have to manually select receiver modes, you may find that switching to an analog video format to see the OSD is a pain. If you only need to see the OSD for initial setup and occasionally later on for minor tweaks, looking at the analog input to your monitor for the OSD will suffice. There are still sources that provide analog signals and as a result many people still have an analog video connection to their monitor for those sources. In most cases there is no extra cabling required to view an analog-only OSD that a user wouldn’t have already installed for other reasons.

For your use, will the sonic and price point benefits of Outlaw equipment outweigh the lack of HDMI connectors and HDMI OSD? If you perform a search in this forum for HDMI, you will find a fair amount of debate on this very issue in quite a few other posts.

Good point. Let me ask you this: Will I only need one digital (HDMI) and one analog connection running to my monitor? That I could live with. I ask this only because this is going to be my first REAL A/V receiver that I would use the video switching on.

How do you long term "Outlaws" feel about cables from BetterCables? Are they really better than Monster 1000's?

Yes, you need only one digital video and one analog video. A component video connection will pass all analog video sources (composite, s-video, and component) and will give you setup menu OSD (assuming you select an input that uses a composite/s-video source, which will have the menu overlayed before being transcoded to the component).

BetterCables has well-made stuff, but I think they've gotten overpriced in recent years - perhaps not as much so as most Monster cables (which generally don't have as good a build quality), but enough to make me lose interest in them. I've had excellent luck with a combination of Outlaw cables (their PDO is a remarkable value - much better made than BetterCables' optical and at a fraction of the price - and their other cables are also a good value) and Blue Jeans Cables (which offer build quality and performance easily on par with the BetterCables stuff I've used at a much more reasonable price).

Are you sure about the Blue Jeans Cables? I just looked at their stuff online and it seems too cheap. I love a good deal, and I'll look everywhere to find it, but seriously, are they really as good as BetterCables? I love the prices, but sometimes I've found you really do get what you pay for.

Blue Jeans cables are excellent quality, been using them for years, as have many others. I sense that they are a small company and most likely don't have the overhead and sell mailorder only, thus keeping the costs down, just like the Outlaws! Ever seen the lifestyle the head of Monster lives? it almost obscene! born on the backs of the uninformed consumer...

Regarding the OPs original question I kind of disagree with what bestbang4thebuck that most HDMI receivers are not yet fully implemented. I would have a agreed six months or so ago but the current batch of HDMI receivers are looking pretty nice. They are even getting fairly affordable, such as the JVC. Bestbang4thebuck is probabally referring to the lack of HDMI 1.3 and the new Dolby and DTS formats. I'm just not that sure at this point that 1.3 is worth waiting for. So far the new formats have been decoded in the players and work with HDMI 1.1. I guess the point I'm trying to make is that if I was in the market for a new receiver today it would be awful difficult to ignore the HDMI models.

I have to agree with gonk that BetterCables have gotten kind of pricey. I hadn't bought any of their cables for a few years and was mildly shocked by the prices when I recently checked. BlueJeans cable makes a very nice affordable cable. I make my own interconnects using the same material as BJ, (Canare and Belden) and am very pleased with them. I've also had good luck with AVCable.

Do you really need to run the audio to the television? With a HT setup you don’t even need an audio section or speakers in the TV. You may need to run an audio cable from the TV to the receiver but you wouldn’t use HDMI for that anyway.

The only time you might need audio to the TV is if you want to watch TV sometimes without the whole system on. Personally, I haven't used a TV's speakers in over ten years.

I know, and I wish I could forget those tv speakers even exist, but with a 2 month old baby boy in my house, sometimes I just have to keep it down.

This may make some of you twinge, but the speakers in my JVC 40" LCD are actually not bad. You have to take it what it's worth though, they're tv speakers, and for that they're pretty good, but when I get to crank up my paradigms, life is good.

Thank you everyone for your input on the Blue Jeans Cables. My next order will definitely be from them. I was looking at their stats and they seem really clean. The HDMI I got from BetterCables is a really nice cable, but I paid for it, not like a Monster, but I paid for it. I think Monster refers more to their price now than anything.

Hey obie, can the JVC compare to the 1070? The 1050 was very impressive and I can only imagine how nice the 1070 is. I would normally put JVC in line with Kenwood and Sony. These makers do make some ok stuff, but you have to get in to their top lines and spend a fortune to match what you get in the 1070 for under $1k.

On the issue of the OSD, while it might vary for you, I tend to use mine a lot. I'm picky and rather particular about having my audio always set up just right and sometimes it requires a few little tweaks. The thing I mainly use it for though is to adjust the volume levels. Even after tweaking the offsets most of my sources tend to vary wildly with what level they need to be at to be considered reasonable. Thus I can change the volume to the proper area easily and then know approximately what I'm getting before I switch inputs. Same thing when I'm watching TV late at night once my girlfriend has gone to bed.

The reason I use the OSD for such a simple thing is because, as cool as it looks the blue display is nearly impossible to read unless you're very close to it. At a distance of 8 feet I typically have to lean forward a bit, squint slightly, and make some informed guesses to tell what it's trying to display.

I'd still love it without the OSD, but I'd probably complain a little bit more often.

I'd have to admit I'm a little bit of a tweaker myself. I like to make sure the settings are optimal at all times, which is why I'm starting to spend the money on quality components.

Have you seen obie_fl's theater room? Scroll up a bit and cehck it out, he's done a good job.

Has anyone read the latest article from Outlaw about the prices going up July 1?

I was in a meeting yesterday with some contractors (general and subs), and a secondary debate popped up between them about prices. The electrical sub remarked that three major Chilean copper mines have been on strike since the first of the year, driving copper prices up significantly worldwide (on the order of 75%+ increases, apparently). Steel's been a moving target in the US for several years now - the story I was told about three years ago was that some Chinese investors came to the US and bought a couple of the major steel mills, broke them down, and shipped them to China because it was faster than building mills from scratch. (I've never seen proof of that tale, but it was told right around the time that sheet metal prices went completely mad and they don't seem to have really stabilized since then.) It's not been unusual in the last few years for contractors to offer quotes with a disclaimer that prices were only good for a week (rather than the previous standard of 30 to 60 days). It's a major issue affecting all industries. Sad, but definitely true.

YIKES! Like every other guy out there, I'll be pissed if I wait and the price goes up a lot!

Does anyone know when the 1070 first came out? Is there a newer or replacement coming out soon?

I seriously doubt there will be any huge increases, and cables will probably be the most likely victims.

The 1070 came out late last summer or early last fall, and I wouldn't expect any changes to or replacement for it before early 2008 (based on past Outlaw product life cycles).

Wouldn't the amps qualify as well, since those huge transformers are mostly wound wire?

True, the amps are also potentially going to see an increase - especially since they're built domestically.

HDMI and DVI are not equivalent for video, DVI is inferior:

See this for details, definate difference:

http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_11_4/feature-dvi-hdmi-hdcp-connections-11-2004.html

HDMI can offer some advantages (or disadvantages, if its improperly implemented). In the case of the DVI switching used by Outlaw's processors and receiver, however, it's a moot point - the video signal pin-compatibility of the two formats allows the Outlaw DVI switching to be transparent to HDMI signals (in other words, the "blacker-than-black" data issues don't apply). DVI is not going to be around in new products much longer, but at least for video purposes the Outlaw DVI switching will work just fine for HDMI components.

Wouldn't this push Outlaw to come out with HDMI sooner then?

Outlaw's next generation will include HDMI (it's going to have to), but the DVI switching is an excellent solution during the transitional period to HDMI audio (a transition that really just started in earnest about a month or so ago with the arrival of HD-DVD and will only be slowed down by the uncertainty created by the format war). I'm still assuming that the 990, 1070, and 970 will all remain in production through the end of 2007.

Great piece of info westy!! Thanks for posting this!

And I here's another question for gonk: how do you know this stuff so well? I haven't seen a question posted anywhere on this site that you haven't had an answer for!

- Lots of reading over the years...

HDMI 1.1 already supports everything that should be needed by either HD-DVD or Blu-Ray where the 8 bit limitation makes itself felt (both support MPEG-2 and 4). Here is the MPEG-4 stuff that obviates the issues with DVI:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H.264/MPEG-4_AVC

As far as the competing HD video formats: really, from an audio or video output standpoint there is no real difference between HD-DVD and Blu-Ray, unlike DSD versus MLP.

As far as hi def audio, HDMI 1.1 supports uncompressed 7.1 192/24 audio, this is really all that needs to come out of either HD DVD or Blu-ray to support any HDMI 1.1 compliant receiver/controller and get the best sound quality (sorry DSD fans, of which I am one, big collection of classical SACDs). Frankly the authoring process has more to do with perceivable sound differences between DSD and DVD-Audio than the formats do.

The other formats are simply marketing B.S. on the output side of the players. These players should handle new formats the way a computer's soundcards does, cards only put out PCM, MP3 or DD regardless of the native format for external devices, the new formats are handled in software.

The only possible reason to pass the native audio formats on to a reciever is to put more encoding information in the bit stream to manipulate sound effects, such as breaking out extra channels etc. Frankly, I don't care about this.

I'd really like to buy the 1070, but I don't know if I can do it knowing it has some soon-to-be-obsolete outputs. After everyone's input, I may have to wait for HDMI to become a little more main stream or look at another manufacturer. I want one so bad, but not bad enough to screw myself.

I think NAD has some models with HDMI switching but it's so hard to get prices on them online to compare apples to apples. I don't think I'd be unhappy with an NAD with HDMI swicthing if the price was reasonable.

Hi DavieJ,
I've been enjoying the 1070 for a few days now...and it's great for sound...in my small/medium living room...
My mirage speakers never sang like that before...
WOW!!!
but for your dilemma...
I've been enjoying DVI-D for 6 months on my projector...
and who cares if there's something better ???
as far as I know there's a whole link of the dual-link portion of a DVI-I cable that is still unused...
Have you looked at a good high quality analog component signal ?
Even that is more than adequate for most people...
maybe you're not most people...
and you really need to have the best and latest...but remember even HDMI will become obsolete eventually...
the fact that there's still bickering on the audio portion...and new formats of it keep popping up are real turn-offs for me...
not to mention the fact..I like to have my audio and video treated separately...
but hey...that's my opinion...
Good luck with that...

Hey Laventura,
You raise some good points, but I would disagree on one point, what most people would be happy with vs what the people in this forum would be happy with. Even the fact that you have a 1070 with Mirage speakers shows you too aren't happy with what "most" would settle with. "Most" people buy Sony, Kenwood, Pioneer, or whatever else they can get at BB or CC, not quality components like what we are talking about.

There are a few reasons I'd prefer HDMI switching:
1. New video components coming out will have HDMI, not DVI.
2. My HD Cable box AND my LCD tv are HDMI, so I'd prefer to not change the format to DVI just to change it back to HDMI.
3. I'd rather have fewer but higher quality cables running. I actually work in the computer industry and when I build server racks, I work painstakingly at getting the cable done neatly. I guess it's a pet peeve to see messy cables.
4. It's newer, and according to the link posted above, better than DVI of any format, so why not get the best.
5. Because I work in IT, I'm already used to having obsolete hardware before it's in use, but why buy a technology that's already on the way out?

Conclusion, I don't want to be pissed off when it does come out that I didn't wait, and then I'll be stuck with old technology. Realisticly, even if I some how obtained a 1050, I'm sure I'd be happy, but I guess you're right, I do want the best, latest and greatest.

A few thoughts, DavieJ... For the sake of video, the 1070's DVI switching is DVI/HDMI agnostic - the "conversion" isn't a conversion at all, just a wiring foible. The drawback to the DVI switching isn't the need to switch back and forth between connector types (since in that regard it's no different than HDMI switching) but that the switching is purely video - the audio doesn't pass on or get processed. In the home theater environment, you're not going to need to have the audio pass on to the display (that's why you have the 1070, after all). So what do you lose? For HDMI components such as satellite or cable boxes and DVD players, you lose "one cable" convenience and have to settle for two cables (HDMI-to-DVI and an optical or coaxial digital audio). For HD-DVD and Blu-ray, you lose the ability to get the new formats to your receiver in the digital domain. When the 1070's hardware design was finished, HDMI was barely to v1.1 - I don't know if it was much past v1.0 when the design was laid out. When the 1070 was launched, getting a straight answer on how HD-DVD (now just over a month old) or Blu-ray (now just under a month away) would attempt to use HDMI. Today, we have a good idea on how they'll eventually use them, but the hardware and software that's shipped so far is just scratching the surface - it'll be a generation or so there before HD-DVD hardware starts really using the full capabilities of the format, and we're still waiting for full specs of Blu-ray players to know for sure how well they're going to do.

I say all that to pose a different question (one question, several parts). Do you get the latest and greatest now (which means a handful of receivers that have finally started to implement HDMI audio, at either a higher price point or with audio quality that may not match the 1070's)? Do you get something that offers a really solid feature set and good audio quality now (that'd be the 1070)? Do you not buy anything and wait for the next generation of units comparable to the 1070 to arrive in a year or so with HDMI? I can see arguments in favor of all of them, depending on your personal needs, budget, and long-term plan. Personally, I went with a 990 (already had separate amps) because I can enjoy great audio quality and the convenience of DVI switching now, and when something arrives that is comparable with HDMI v1.x (probably v1.2 or v1.3, assuming v1.3 actually arrives in the near future) I can sell the 990 for a significant percent of what I paid for it (check out what 950's sell for on Audiogon - they originally sold for $900 and were $700 new when discontinued) after having enjoyed its performance for the intervening years. Since I don't plan to get very into either Blu-ray or HD-DVD for at least a year or two anyway, that works out for me. For others, that would not be the correct choice...

Well DavieJ,
Jump ! Get HDMI...Enjoy it...
Don't wait too long...
it's sweet stuff...
but you'll still have component, s-video or composite cables running to your display if you don't get the right machine...
you might even have regular analog audio ?
Do your homework...for your needs(present and future)
Outlaw is damn sweet stuff !
Even their caps looks good...

Good luck

Gonk, you raise the million dollar question that only I can be answer. I'll think it over for the next little while and keep on eye on the technology. I am getting a new receiver, and I don't plan on replacing it for at least 6 years which is why I want the perfect one.

Anyway, thanks for all the info, it's much appreciated.

OK, I just got off the phone with Outlaw and it won't be until summer of 2007 when the new model comes out with HDMI.

They're expecting the format for carrying DTS and Dolby over the HDMI (ver 1.3)to be solidified Jan 2007, then the chip makers have to do their thing, then it'll be released to the electronics manufacturers, which brings us to Summer, 2007. There it is, the answer to my own question.

Summer 2007? That's actually about six to nine months before I was expecting it, and I still suspect it wouldn't hurt to toss some padding into that number - all it takes is HDMI v1.3 not being ready in January, or chip makers hitting a snag implementing it, or manufacturers like Outlaw having trouble integrating the new chips into platforms that will need to already be well through design and summer 2007 will be out. If more than one of those happens, it'd be easy to end up in the spring of 2008.

Very true, and there's a lot of opportunities for error with so many steps in the process. Another thing to think about is the 1050 was what? $499? Now the 1070 is $899, so what's the next model going to cost?

I don't know why, but for some reason, I can't see the next model coming out without custom labels. I guess because from a programming point of view, it's not that difficult, in fact I'm surprised the 1070 doesn't have it. I wonder if they could throw it into an software upgrade.

I doubt you'll see an escalation like that with the next generation of receiver. The 1050 was a nice unit for its day, but the video switching was only the most minimal (composite inputs switched to a composite output, s-video inputs switched to an s-video output, no component inputs, and no OSD), there was no bass management (analog or digital) on the multichannel analog input, and there was a good deal less processing horsepower under the hood. A successor to the 1070 will likely trade in the DVI for HDMI and tweak some other things (such as editable input names, perhaps). Just guessing here, but I doubt a replacement would break the "kilobuck" mark (or, if it did, not move far from that mark) - doing so would start to move too far away from Outlaw's core market.

Ok, seriously, this is getting ridiculous. It's now March of 2009 and all we're seeing is the low, low prices and great deals on the old 970's. When are the replacements coming? Why was the 1070 discontinued when the replacement wasn't anywhere near being released? I've now been waiting almost 3 years for Outlaw to come out with features that most other manufacturers have been doing for years, and this is like waiting for the second coming of Christ!
The constant advertising of low deals for the older hardware, to me, somewhat changes the company profile from "audiophile quality hardware" to "discount stereo shop".

It would seem that the Outlaws are not going to replace the 1070. The SN 972 would likely be their idea of a replacement since it is essentially the receiver version of the 997. Both should be available in the next few months.

I don't know that I'd abandon the idea of an Outlaw receiver. I would not anticipate a receiver based on a 990/997 level processor, as it would put the receiver's price tag above $1500 when their two previous receivers have been priced around $600 to $900 (when initially released, although both saw price drops during their production lives).

What we are likely to see down the road (after the 997 lands) is a successor to the 970. That would offer a platform that could serve as an opportunity for a new receiver. Or we could see something like the 1070: receiver first, then a processor.

I was told not to hold my breath waiting for a replacement for the 1070....

As in "never" or as in "not any time soon"?

Didn't the joint agreement with Sherwood Newcastle exclude Outlaw from selling a receiver, or was that just a receiver based on the 997?

That exclusion was for the 997/R-972. It didn't exclude Outlaw ever doing a receiver in partnership with Sherwood. And of course it didn't exclude Outlaw building a receiver in partnership with someone else (like Eastech).

What secrets do you know, Gonk?

I wish I knew. I just remember there being something in the October announcement about Outlaw doing the 997 as a processor variant of the R-972 that indicated Sherwood wouldn't have a processor and Outlaw wouldn't have a receiver. That was as far as the distinction went, though.

Clearly I'm not the only one who's getting a little tired of waiting. Not even a single picture or spec about what's coming out? The auto makers understandably keep their new lines hidden until they're ready because they don't want the new/hot features copied, but so far we haven't heard of anything "new" that the other manufacturers haven't already done. Room optimizer? Done. 4 HDMI inputs? Done. USB ports for MP3 playback and firmware upgrades? Done. OSD over HDMI, XM support, Multi-room? Done, done, and done.

Don't get me wrong, I do like the look of their products, and the reviews are nothing less than stellar at the price point they were offered at, but this is taking so long that I'm not so sure I want to be an Outlaw owner anymore. The opposite would be to have new versions released every 6 months, and that too would suck, but like everything else in life, everything in moderation is best. Can't they at least put out some details of what's coming out, if for nothing else, just to string me along for another few months??

There is no "perfect" solution. If they string you along now, then they get slammed for leading people on when they announce something without a precisely correct release date. Let's assume that they say "here's what to expect from the Model 1071" today, give us a feature list, and then add that it's going to be released in Q4 2009 (I just made that date up, by the way), if they miss that date they will have potential customers who have planned their purchases around that product mad at them. They will then have those mad customers complaining until the product arrives.

History tells us that keeping things quiet until you have product very close to release is least likely to create grief. That's been true for Outlaw and a number of other manufacturers.

I agree with you 100%. But Gonk, the 1070 was discontinued when? With all the "low-low prices" emails we're all getting, aren't you starting to get the feeling that we won't be able to buy the new products until all of the old product is gone?
Generally speaking, and that's across all products, you usually have a replacement when you retire a product, and old stock is sold quickly and cheaply, but it shouldn't take months and months to do that. If it does, they need to talk to the guy responsible for inventory levels. All this is doing is pissing of current/potential customers. Add the risk that if the new unit isn't absolutely amazing, the customer base will not be happy with it.

As soon as Outlaw can get HDMI v1.3 hardware in hand, they'll start selling it - and I think I can safely speak for them that they want that day to come sooner rather than later, existing inventory be damned. The prices we've seen on the 970 and 990 are probably largely the result of them are competing in a very bad economy with hardware that - while good quality stuff - lacks a widely desired feature (HDMI).

I still think that basing a new receiver on the 990 would be the right path to go. Unless there is a contractual problem, this could basically be an Outlaw version of the Sherwood receivers. While I know that I am over simplifying, about the only change needed to make this attractive to me would be to replace the DVI with HDMI.

Basing one on the 990? That's an old platform at this point. Basing one on the 997? That would directly compete with Sherwood's R-972, which I doubt Sherwood is going to be excited about.

those of us that have been around the Outlaws for a long time are no strangers to waiting...but in waiting, the fruit is usually sweeter when it has ripened on the vine...they'll get the right product out to us and at a nice price...and I predict gonk'll peak under the tent and get us some dope on this...
Bill

The reason, I suggested building a receiver on the 990 platform, is that Outlaw has tended to keep its receivers slightly below its top of the line pre/pro in terms of capability and sound quality.

Using that as a base assumption, it strikes me that the 990 is already physically built on a receiver frame. It certainly has been more stable the 970 and presumably is better musically as well. About all it is missing is a chip upgrade to support HDMI 1.3 input and possibly the new musical modes for Blu-Ray. I see that later as optional since the 990 already has 7 channels of analog input.

The 990 platform is at end of life - it's still a great piece of gear, but I don't think it makes sense to invest in developing new products on that platform at this point. It's simply not going to be competitive over the ~2 to 3 year life span that Outlaw's receivers typically have. A new non-HDMI receiver in 2011 will be a dinosaur, and retrofitting it with HDMI v1.3 is a major undertaking that is simply not practical. If it were easy, we'd have seen a "991" processor that added HDMI to the 990 a year or two ago. Aside from needing a different DSP to handle decoding of the new formats, you need an entire HDMI receiving/transmitting section to feed it and a whole slew of new code to support all of that. Once you do that, you've replaced so much that what's left isn't recognizable - you are halfway to designing a new platform, and the work required to retain the old is likely just going to slow you down and add to the development costs.

Another thought. It's possible that the Cirrus 49400 chipset has been EOF'ed (end of life) by Cirrus meaning that everyone who was using the part had to make a last time buy of all the parts they would need to build a last batch of product. That could be why the 1070 was discontinued, with the last of the parts going to keep the 970 and 990 going a bit longer.