I have been planning to get a 1050 with some axioms for a while now. Tough times have put off my purchase and now I read that you need a 950 if you want to do HDTV. Since I want to build a total HD package it makes sense to go with the upgrade. My questions is this. While Axiom is widely regarded as a good speaker for the money and a good match to the 1050, are they good enough to hang with a 950/770. If not what are some good suggestions. I have looked at Paradigm Studio 20/40s and BA VR-M50s and both sounded good in the store but you know how that is(liked the BAs a bit more but they were different stores so it is hard to tell). Does Axiom compare? Are there any others I should look into for this set up? This is a bigger investment than I originally intended but since I seem to be committed to it by HD necessity, I want my speakers to do the system justice. As you can tell, this is my first quest for high end componentry and I want to do it right if I am going to spend some cash, then again bang for the buck is always nice.

your help is appreciated.

A couple of thoughts...

I haven't had any first-hand experience with the Axioms, but I would expect anything that worked well with a 1050 to only get better when paired up with a 950/770. I've used Paradigm Ref Studio 60's with a 1050 alone, a 1050/750 combo, and a 950/750 combo and been very pleased with all three arrangements.

While I own and a very fond of the 950, I wonder why the 950 is necessary for HDTV in lieu of the 1050. Granted, the 1050 lacks component video switching, but most HD sets should have two component inputs (one for DVD, one for outboard HD decoder). Just thought I'd pose the question...

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gonk -- Saloon Links | Pre/Pro Comparison Chart | 950 Review

I am only going on what I read in the review link on the Outlaw main page. The review said that you have to have a high bandwidth connection for HDTV. Then the review of the 950 shows a high bandwidth connection for HDTV. I have no experience with this technology so I can't offer any reason why this is necessary. I would invest in a 1050 if it will support the HD requirements(although it may not support surround ex and other new formats either it seems) then upgrade later. I just don't want to spend $2000 now on a 1050 with Axioms and be forced to start over in a year. Thus the question is actually two fold, one will the 1050 work for HDTV and decode the newer formats, and two, if I can safely start with a 1050 then upgrade to a 950/770 later, do I need to look at more expensive speakers than Axiom offers. The Axiom question stems from their forum where a guy asks about picking up a pair of used Studio 20s for $500 or buying Axiom and the people there unaminously said that they would go with the Paradigms in a heartbeat as they are much better speakers that just cost more. This makes me nervous about the entire line. If the people who generally support the product don't think they compare to entry level References then I am concerned. I can get cheap speakers at Best Buy but I want quality. So if Axiom is the Outlaw of the speaker world then I am all for them but if the are part of the get what you pay for addage then I'd rather invest if something better. Therefore, please give me guidance oh wise one(s). Help a guy out who really doesn't know what he is doing but wants to do it right.

Thanks

I would not expect any problem pairing Axioms up with a 950/770 system -- they have a good reputation, and several gunslingers around here use 'em (Matthew Hill has some MT80's, as I recall). Some of them may be able to offer some thoughts on how they compare to the Paradigm Reference and Boston Acoustics lines. I will say that from what I've heard about the Axioms, they are pretty substantial and a good value -- certainly a step above Best Buy's typical offerings. At the same time, $500 for a pair of Studio/40's is one heck of a good deal since they retail for around $900 I believe (most AudioReview reviewers were paying around $750 to $800 or more).

If you are working on a budget, consider this: the high bandwidth connection referred to for HDTV is the component video switching; progressive scan DVD and HDTV video signals use a lot of bandwidth, and some receivers and pre/pros use component video switching that can't handle the signal bandwidth well enough to make the switching fully transparent (leading to signal degradation). The 1050 lacks any component video switching. Is this a problem? Not necessarily. If you have only one compatible input on your display, then you would want external switching. If your set has two inputs, then you could just as well use those two inputs and bypass the 1050 or 950 entirely.

Before I turn off the monitor for the night, I'll offer one bit of advice: when speaker shopping, try to listen to a lot of different products, preferably using some demo material of your choosing that you are familiar with.

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gonk -- Saloon Links | Pre/Pro Comparison Chart | 950 Review

Three bookshelf speakers that I own and have tested with the 1050 as front main speakers.
In order of preference.
Comapred to my Boston Acoustic VR-970 front mains. (powered sub tower speakers) Comparisons made with and without the 970's built in subs running.

1. Polk Lsi9
- Best detail, depth of sound field and imaging, Excelent sound reproduction from highs to lows.
Sound quality overall is very comparable to the 970's - with better imaging and depth of sound field. Honestly makes me want to replace my VR-970's with a pair of Polk Lsi-15 towers, and my BA VR-12 cetner with the Lsi center.
$660.oo pr / delivered / 1100.oo retail
Currently in use with the 1050 in my home office system.

2. Boston Accoustic CR-8 ( new model is CR-85 )
- Best descibed as a lush sound, Not as detailed as the Polk's with a bit more bass emphasis, Mids are not as pronounced.
Could almost suffice as mains in a small room without a sub.
Big rich sound vs the Axiom's - mid range detail is full but not as detailed as the lsi9's or VR970's
$225.oo / Dealer demo / regularly about 400.00 pr.
L-R side surrounds - HT

3. Axiom M3ti
- Very clean detailed sound, distinct sepration of insturments in music, Bass is present and clear but a bit to light. They sound fine, But just did not have the punch I wanted for my H.O. stereo. No real comparison to the Lsi9's, CR-8's or VR-970's (970 top end only w/o sub)
Still, Due to the performance I would give some of the Axiom tower models consideration if price were the main driving factor.
235.oo pr / delivered / Factory outlet price
LR rear surounds - HT.

As far as HD and the 1050. The main concern is using the reciever or PrePro/Amp to select the video source that is being delivered to your TV. If you go with the 1050 you can simply run the HD video source and a progressive scan or regular DVD to your TV via the component video connections. You just connect them directly to the TV and do not worry about using the 1050 as the video selector. The video selector function can be convienient, but it is not nessacary. I do use the 1050 to switch non HD sources, VHS - 2nd DVD/sacd (s-video) - DSS (s-video) and still run the component outputs from my first DVD directly in to the TV, It works just fine.


[This message has been edited by Steve_C (edited January 14, 2003).]

Gonk,

Thanks for the help. Sounds like a 1050 with a good speaker investment is a good way to start, considering I can get around the bandwidth issue. I have also read that the 1050 can decode surround ex disks, just does it a different way but seems to work fine. Is this correct? What about SACD and other formats that are coming out. Is there a 'Killer App'(computer term for software that requires hardware upgrades) coming that will render the 1050 to the antique bin within say 2-3 years? I'll probably upgrade at that time anyway so I am pretty sure the life expectancy of a 1050 will be fine but want my bases covered.

Steve C,

I haven't heard the polks and as Gonk points out I need to do my due dilligence in researching my options, but as for the BA/Axiom comparison, I have heard the VR-M50s(with sub) and Paradigm Studio 20s and 40s and thought all sounded great. These are a higher end speaker than the CR-8s you auditioned and prefered to the Axioms. Can I assume that the Axioms don't compare to a Reference series in BA or Paradigm? Or were you just going with the CR-8 line because they have a larger bass driver and you didn't want to add a sub. I plan to use a sub with my system so I am not so concerned with the low end capability of the mains as I am the depth, imaging, detail qualities you described in the Polks. I am interested in a general ranking of Axiom, are they considered in a league with a Reference BA or Reference Paradigm? Specifically, I am looking at the Grand Master set up that uses the M22ti fronts, QS8 surrounds and EP125 sub. How does this compare to a similar setup built around a BA VR-M50 or Paradigm Studio 20 or 40. I select those because I have heard them and thought both were outstanding and now can't settle for average quality speakers. Sometimes I wish I didn't know the difference so I could buy a $500 Best Buy setup and be happy. Oh well, too late now...I have the fever! thanks guys.

Is there a way to get Matthew Hill or someone involved in this thread? You guys have been great but the more the merrier in my opinion. I also know that speaders are subjective and I have to make a subjective decision. But since I can't audition Axioms, as far as I know, without buying them, trying them, and returning them, I'd like to get some outside opinions to see if they are worth the hassle. Thanks again.

Paul

The 1050 will decode Dolby Surround EX discs using the Zoran-based "Surround 6.1" processing. Having used Dolby EX on the 950, I think the Surround 6.1 is as good as the official deal. The 1050 will not process DTS-ES soundtracks (the DTS version of Dolby EX), but there is a workaround if you really want DTS and 6.1 by using a DVD player with an onboard DTS decoder, using the player's 5.1 analog output, and engaging Surround 6.1 while using the 5.1 analog input on the 1050. SACD and DVD-Audio both require a 5.1 analog input, which the 1050 has. Eventually, both SACD and DVD-Audio will support digital output (currently not allowed due to concerns about piracy), at which time all existing receivers and pre/pros will be "outdated" due to the absence of a DVD-A/SACD digital input and DVD-A/SACD decoding -- whether or not that matters to you is a personal preference.

The 1050 is a solid piece of equipment with all the basics included. The only things missing are Pro Logic II (which if you're looking at HDTV is not really all that big a deal) and some handy features like component video switching -- some people can't live without them, others could care less.

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gonk -- Saloon Links | Pre/Pro Comparison Chart | 950 Review

I bought the CR8's unheard as rear surrounds to voice match to my BA fronts and BA center speaker. (+ price on closeout)
IMHO the sound of the pair of Axiom's I have just does not stack up against the comparably designed/sized Polk's or BA's that I have listened to. But a better comparison would probably be the M3ti's against the CR-7's and Lsi7's. Of course the BA and Polk at full sug retail run about 2x(BA) and 4x(P) the cost of the Axiom M3ti's. Also the VR-970's top end is based on the same higher end BA VRM series speaker components rather than the BA CR series components (+ built in subs) and sound better overall than the Axiom M3ti's. (even when combined with a sub)
Among the three that I own, I like the Lsi's best and the BA VR's are close behind.
For the cost though . . .
I still think the M3ti's are a pretty good value but are better suited in a small room system. Can not give you a comparison to any other Axiom models but you have a 30 day satisfaction guarantee through Axiom should you decide to try them out, It would only cost you return shipping if you did not like them. It's hard at best to make a good decision without hearing them but you might try a side by side comparison if you have the funds to order a pair to try at home next to other brands you can pick up locally. Perhaps your local dealers would let you bring a pair of Axiom's into the store to demo against what they want to sell you

Since your speakers are going to have the greatest impact on your final sound, Demo as many different speaker models as you can first with materials you know well.
You might take a look here, I have been referring folks to www.acousticsounddesign.com for some pretty good prices on several brands of mid-fi speakers, Particularly if they have the brand and model that you "KNOW" you want. "No satisfaction return policy" but they are around 40% below retail on average. Something else worth checking out - Higher end audio shops often offer trade up policies on speakers and you can sometimes get an open box deal on speakers with the full mfrs wty at a considerable discount. My 970's were still in the box but were a return item due to a customer upgrade. I saved 1000.oo on the pair 600.oo v 1600.00
And did not have to invest in a separate subwoofer. BA did have to replace one of the built in sub amps at no cost due to a bad volume control after one year / They are now about two years old with no other problems.

That's my Nickels worth

Perfect! I can still go with the 1050 and use the work arounds if necessary. I guess I am not convinced Axiom is worth the hassle. They may be good but to buy them without hearing them is pretty tough and I hate sending stuff back. I think I'd rather spend a bit more and get something that is really nice, especially since a 1050 leaves some money left over. Further, if I find that I like one of the brands on the acoustic sound design site then I get a bargain too! Guess I just have to start listening. I have to relocate for a new job and will be in the Milwaukee area(Sheboygan actually). There has to be some decent audio shops there where I can do some good comparisons.

Thanks again.

Paul

Since I have your attention can you tell me someting about cables? Is there a difference between Component Video Cables and the PSC cables that Outlaw sells? I have a friend who just bought a DVD player and HDTV. The DVD player has Component Video and S-Video. She bought Monster Cable Component Video cables at the suggestion of the sales guy. I told her that Outlaw might have something nicer, but I don't know if the PSCs work for this purpose. If the PSCs are different, what are they used for? If they are the same, how many does she need.

I need an A/V education.

I'll throw a few more internet direct names at you. Ascend Acoustics and Aperion Audio. Aperion picks up all the shipping if you don't like them. Also, keep Rockets in mind.

I just got the Ascend CBM-170's this week and love them. So far so good. They easily best Paradigm Mini Monitors amd I'd be interested in how they sound against Studio 20's since the 20's are on everyones short list.

The PSC's can be used for several things: a single PSC can be used for composite video or coaxial digital audio, or three of them can be used for component video.

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gonk -- Saloon Links | Pre/Pro Comparison Chart | 950 Review

She bought Monster Cable Component Video cables at the suggestion of the sales guy.

There are more readily available at retail, and many own them....when I replaced mine, (with straightwire at the time) particulary on video I noticed a great improvement. I have been very pleased with the Outlaw PCA's and intend to try the PSC's when I get around to ordering.

Hmmm...so is that to say you can use either the PCAs of PSCs for the Component Video connections. The PCAs are listed as Audio cables but I guess cable is cable and it is just a matter of the copper or silver. Is this correct?

My wife pointed out that speakers are not the most important part of an HT system, a room to play them is and if I want my HT room in our house I have to use some restraint. Seems that, at some point, I promised I could do this for about $2000 and she is holding me to it. I hate it when she does that. I guess I have the fever but she has the Tylenol. Now I have to decide on a complete Axiom system or some really nice mains to be built on later. Decisions decisions.

Gunslinger living with Mea West.

Not quite, I'm afraid. Do not use the PCA's for video -- they are not rated as 75-ohm cables, which both video (composite and component) and digital audio need.

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gonk -- Saloon Links | Pre/Pro Comparison Chart | 950 Review

Ahhh....good to know.

Well, looks like I missed a good thread here. Sorry to be a bit late to the party, guys, but I got tied up with this guy in Vegas, see...

Anyway, I am an owner of the Axiom Epic 80 system, which consists of the M80Ti towers, the VP150 center, the EP350 subwoofer, and the QS8 surrounds. As anyone who is a regular here can tell you, I am impressed with this system. When I bought it, it was the highest-priced system I could afford, and even though I could probably buy a more expensive system now, I wouldn't if I had it to do over again.

I don't have much experience with the lower-end Axiom models, but a friend did buy a pair of M22Ti (Axiom's top of the line bookshelf) speakers based on my recommendation of the M80Ti's, which he did not have physical room for. He has been quite pleased. I've been to his place to hear them first-hand, and while they have neither the volume nor the range of the M80Ti's, they are a very respectable speaker.

As far as I know, the M3Ti and the M22Ti are quite similar in range and sound quality, with the primary difference being the M22Ti's significantly higher sound output.

I had the 1050 for about a month and it drove the big M80Ti's adequately, although not nearly to the volume that the 755 will. They are a bit big for my room, but I plan to own them for a long time and fully expect my "next" room to be larger than what I'm crammed into now.

One thing I'd like to say about the Grand Master set is that you may be a bit light on bass with the EP125 sub. The EP175 may be a better match, considering that the M22Ti's *do* have a significant punch, and you are buying the top of the line surround speaker. Axim will usually allow you to substitute speakers in the set, especially if you are trading up.

Also, remember that Axiom has free shipping (last I checked) and a no-hassle 30-day return policy, just like Outlaw. You buy them, you don't like them, you send them back. No questions.

Anyone who lives reasonably close to the newer of the two Jerseys has an open invitation to come over and give my set a listen, both for comparison shopping purposes or just to tell me why theirs is better. :-)

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Matthew J. Hill
matt@idsi.net

Matthew, good tohear from you. I keep readine that Axiom speakers are very 'bright' to the point of causing fatigue after several minutes. Have youhad this experience? There is a thread that talks about using a resistor to take some of the top end out of the tweeter. I also wondered about the sub, I was thinking that they may not sound so bright with a beefier sub. Maybe an SVS or something instead of the Axiom sub. I suppose that the 80s have more bass by design so that may help the reported 'brightness' but how about the m22tis that your friend has. You said that they lack the deapth and volume of the 80s, which stands to reason, but is he using a sub or are you for that matter? Since 'brightness' is the only issue that is consistantly reported, I am wondering if this can be effectively dealt with. Thanks for the report.

Paul

Paul

I use the EP350 sub in my system. It's no SVS, but it holds its own against the rest of the system, especially since I don't often crank it. When I move into a larger room I may order a second one.

I find the Axioms to be accurate; harsh is not a word I would use. Nor is fatigue; I do not have any problems listening to my set for hours on end, either for music or HT.

My friend does not currently have a sub, but he is planning on buying an EP350 and a VP150 center soon. He does not have room for surrounds yet so he plans on a 3.1 system for now. You can tell that his current setup, without the sub, is missing part of the material; you hear a lot of mid bass but low bass notes simply don't play.

The EP350 sub will probably be overkill for him, but he eventually wants to build to a system similar to mine, but in stages, which is why he is buying the larger sub.

Rather than putting a resistor into your speakers, you might want to play with EQ or with the 950's theater comp feature if you want less highs to come from the speakers. I find them to be pretty well balanced as they come from the factory, though.

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Matthew J. Hill
matt@idsi.net

Last Call: While there is no substitute for actually listening to any speakers you might be considering, you may never get a "true audition" without taking them home and listening to them in YOUR room with YOUR electronics. Showroom demos often embellish the positives and hide the negatives that all loudspeakers have. With that in mind, I suggest you not dismiss the axioms simply because they cannot be auditioned in a local showroom.

If you haven't yet visited the Axiom website, it is www.axiomaudio.com, where numerous reviews and testimonials are presented. In particular, the M22ti's are reviewed as part of a "speaker face-off" which also includes the Paradigm Studio 40's. (See audioholics.com/productreviews)
The main thing I noticed while reading these reviews was that while the Axioms were described as bright/forward, they were also described as NOT being strident, shrill, fatiguing, etc., -- they just weren't laid back, overly warm, dark, etc. The only caveat I would mention is that nearly all high quality "monitors" are designed to work with a matching subwoofer in order to get full bass extenson. Otherwise, you should choose a floor-standing "tower" speaker, like the M80ti, or the M60ti (same sound, won't play as loud as the M80's). What has impressed me about Axiom is that you can assemble a complete home theater without breaking the bank. That's important to me because I have some "older" New England Audio Research (N.E.A.R.) ME-60 "audiophile" speakers which I would like to build into a complete home theater, but the company no longer exists. So, I must either replace them with a similar quality speaker system (such as B&W CDM 9's plus center, surrounds and sub - $7,000+), or invest in a less expensive home theater system and keep the N.E.A.R.'s for my critical music listening. My heart says go BW, my wallet says go Axiom, or something similar! Good luck in your decision. T.

Sorry for the slow response. I am relocating and have been out of town. No ISP in my new place yet. Matthew, you and Tombstone have me leaning back toward an Axiom solution. There is no denying the bang for the buck benefit of their speakers and cost has to be a major consideration. Besides, $1500-$2500 is no small speaker investment, just not as much as it could be. I'm betting that they would be the best speakers I have ever owned in any case and I can return them if I just hate them. If I can still get your attention, Matthew, would you consider an SVS sub a good upgrade or just plain overkill with either the 80s or 22s? Basically, is it a good investment or am I wasting my money when the Axiom sub does the job. Tombstone, thanks for the link to the review. It was a good read. Now to get my move complete and start shopping for a house. Gotta wind one that will allow for the new system. Thanks to all.

I'm afraid I really don't know that; I've never heard an SVS sub in person. In my room the EP-350 kicks out enough bass to balance everything but is definitely not in the realm of overkill. I think that if you want to knock dishess off the walls and break windows, you'll need an SVS, otherwise just stick with the package (you'll get big discounts if you buy your whole line from Axiom). You may want to try to find someone who's heard both an SVS and an EP-350, though.

Another possibility is to go with two EP-175's. Some people prefer to have multiple smaller subs than one big one.

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Matthew J. Hill
matt@idsi.net

Thanks for the input. By big discounts, do you mean better than the package price listed on the Axiom website? Or discounts off the retail price if you were to buy the pieces one at a time.

I mean that the package prices are significantly lower than the sum of the individual prices. It was several hundered dollars' difference for me.

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Matthew J. Hill
matt@idsi.net