Gonk? Are you in-house tonight..?
Or anyone familar with the Vienna Line?
I just got a pair home to try with the 950.
With 30-22000Hz FR listed
would you set them at Large or stick to small? Any suggestions for crossover?

I'd probably stick to small initially, with a crossover around 40Hz or 60Hz.

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gonk -- Saloon Links | Pre/Pro Comparison Chart | 950 Review

Thank you Gonk, I tried them at 40Hz last night then bumped to 60Hz and left it there. It was really too late and I was busy popping in different discs to play with the settings like I should, I imagine I’ll be doing it over a few days.

I did start with them set at Small then went to Large. My concern (as you might have noticed from my bulletproof thread) is not pushing them too hard or giving them too much? Trying to hammer down how much risk I’m putting the drivers at leaving them on large. At the listen last night I liked large, but did not have them set to small for any great length of time. I need to look up the specs on setting speakers at ‘large’. Does this restrict on the bottom end only, or the higher frequency’s also? (I can’t remember).

SLL-Great choice in a speaker! I have only listened to a pair briefly, but remember liking what I heard. For music, you might try a speaker setting for fronts -large. There should be no frequency restrictions, low or high. It's fairly easy to experiment with the speaker config. so- experiment! PS-- you probably won't get much anything else done now!

It may not be noticeable in home applications, but if you relieve an amplifier of low frequency reproduction responsibilities, it gives the amplifier more headroom for the high frequency chores. The extra headroom is helpful for the quick transient attacks in the high frequency range (eg cymbals and snare drum attack).



[This message has been edited by DollarBill (edited November 04, 2002).]

I typed that backwards, what I meant to ask was when you set them on small does it restrict the top end or just cut them off in the low frequency?

The Small creating more headroom makes perfect sense (taking the load off). I had not paid as much attention to the subject of large and small, (or towers mixed in a system for that matter) As my other set was by no strech of the imagination anywhere near eligable to even 'think about it'.

Small affects low end only. No changes to mid or high frequencies.

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gonk -- Saloon Links | Pre/Pro Comparison Chart | 950 Review

SLL,

Nice choice! I think I would consider those a *slight* step up from the last set of speakers! (Did the one pair cost more than the ENTIRE system it is replacing?) Vienna is a very reputable company, and makes very high quality products. From the pictures, it looks like they use a Scan Speak tweeter (9300, 9500, or 9700), all of which are phenominal tweeters. They also happen to be fairly rugged. I have no idea what the durability of their mids and woofers is, but I'm assuming it's got to be pretty good. They use "shallow" crossover slopes, which puts rather high demands on the drivers to begin with, so I'm sure they have accounted for that. They don't seem like a company that cuts corners.

I assume at some point you'll be getting the complete HT system? I'll be very interested to hear you thoughts on the center channel speaker. When (if) you get it, try walking around the room to see how the sound changes, particularly to the sides of the speaker. If I remember correctly, you have a fairly small room. Are there seating positions considerably to one side of the room? The "MTM on it's side" style center channel speaker often has poor horizontal off-axis response, so I'm curious if you notice that with the Beethoven center channel.

Anyway, enjoy the speakers. I'm sure they will be a great match for the your other gear. BTW, I think you are still going to want to run the speakers "small", crossed around 40-60Hz, as you seem to have already discovered. No sense straining your speakers - that's what the sub is for (provided it's up to the task).

Jason

According to the reviews, the tweeter is indeed from the ScanSpeak line. Model not identified, but as Jason says, any of these ScanSpeak tweeters are top-of-the-line.

I've never had a chance to hear these speakers as to their nearest dealer is about 75 heavy-traffic miles away. The company has an excellent reputation and the reviews refer to details such as separate sub-cabinets for the main components that are usually found only in even MORE expensive speakers, or in custom cabinets. I would also note that, while acknowledging that the OEM price must be considerably below "retail", the drivers in the Beethoven would cost you around $1,000 a pair and the crossover, which from the description clearly uses high-end components, probably $300-$400 a pair for parts alone. So all in all, a much better-than-usual ratio between retail finished price and retail component cost.

From my own experience with speakers using similar drivers, I too would recommend the "small" setting, crossover set no lower than 60 Hz and perhaps even 80 Hz. For one thing, if you have a subwoofer, I believe taht the overall clarity and detail from your main speakers is audibly enhanced by leaving the really low frequencies to a separate unit. For another, when one looks at objectively measured frequency response curves, one wonders by what measure these speaker companies make their claims for low frequency response. (To be fair, a company that was honest and objective in their products' anechoic bass response probably would have a hard time selling its products).

Having previously criticized Def Techs, I'm sure these Vienna speakers are immensely superior, but to be fair, they are, what? 5x? 6x? in price over the unpowered Def Techs too.

Jason, Be careful getting me started. I’m over-excited right now!!. I’d bring the whole Outlaw community home to play if I could…. except you’d be sitting on top of each other. Tiny house-big toys. (My house is the 60 yr. old cottage era, purchased for location…most peoples apartments are bigger…you’d die laughing)

Actually the center speaker alone just about cost as much as the whole 7.1 Def Tech. setup. And yes I picked it up last night, they had to get the center in from another warehouse. The model on the center is the ‘Maestro’ I need to look up the specs on it. The center channels have a different set of names than the model lines of the fronts. No, maybe it’s the room dimensions but off-axis response is fine. In fact these 3 are handling the room size drawback beautifully which is a necessary evil with some seating….if the whole gang and friends tromp in, can be one chair right next to the left front and practically vice-versa on the right, and the sound (though heavily weighted) in those seats, still is not bad at all…..

These things have SUCH a beautiful voice and do not seem as sensitive to placement as the limited choices I demo’d.

I am weird but when I shopped one of my buying criteria was a speaker’s sensitivity to placement because I know I’m so limited in this room. (I asked permission first) with all speakers in the floorstander class; I moved around the room quite a bit up close, and toed them in more (even tried toe out really messing with), moved them a little closer if they had a lot of separation and generally just messed around, to see how dependent they were on placement. I found the Sonus Grand Piano’s to be particularly sensitive here. The soundstage disappeared very quickly when you moved them around to minor degrees. And I found the Martin Logan’s to be flat (to me) in the mid-range. (not compared to my old set but as compared to, - comparably priced) I am ultra-picky about how a speaker handles reproduction of Grand piano octaves, and on speakers capable of really producing the detail, there is a certain depth and resonance to each note I was looking for. The sound of these Beethoven’s on a bass string pluck or a harp!!!!!!!! And their response time (I think it’s called decay and attack) to my ears…close to perfect, or at least the best I’ve heard to date. Human voices –fantastic. And the detail…I can hear when the lips stick together for a second when the vocalist takes a breath.

I looked up speaker reviews on these after I bought them and found that their highs were often described as ‘sweet’. It did not surprise me when I read this because ANY edge to a tweeter gets me. (The Def Tech’s handled it better than many in their class but still wore me out). However personally I really would not describe these as ‘sweet’ I just don’t feel they color the sound in the highs at all…I think it’s an absolute lack of any harshness or stridency in the tweeter that makes them incredibly smooth and easy on the ear.
In comparison to anything with a hint of metallica it would appear ‘sweet’.

The sub, prob is not up to the Viennas’ ummmm, nope my husband would kill me. I have promised to be good (and satisfied for awhile).
He’s letting me get away with this because I don’t normally do stuff like this (I’m usually an easy keeper )…When we picked up the center last night…they said ‘Come back soon’, - he laughed and told them we would NOT be back for awhile.

I’m going to run the Def Tech Cinema Pro 100’s with the Def Tech sub I already own for the HT side. I was wondering if they could keep up and actually they are not at all bad with the Beethoveen’s. Of course the beethovens are so saturated with detail (a new and wonderous world has appeared in my living room) who cares what’s going on in the surrounds! (But really they are blending well)
The Beethovens were so utterly fantastic out of the box just plopped down, I can’t wait to find time to play with tweaking everything. I did a quick calibration (and believe me these things can handle being out of calibration better than the Def Tech’s….) Screwed that up the first time…(I’ll tell that story as a warning latter if someone else calibrates in a hurry like I did).

What I’d like to ask for from the forum, since we decided to skip DIY for a couple of years, (when I looked the knowledge accumulation necessary to attempt to do justice to the parts I wanted to buy was beyond our time constraints for now). I would like to learn about phase between the mains and the sub (total lack there) and the specifics about understanding crossovers and frequency rolloffs. I looked late last night and when I queried just ran into specific stats posted on specific speakers. I need to find some good links to the general topics of and understanding of…Know any??

PS: Although the sales and I were talking that some of the amp setups on these speakers did not do them justice….The Outlaw setup…..(I KID not) gets more out of the Beethoven’s than the Demo room with the Pioneer and B&K.

Hi Norman,...just saw your post too...yep you scared me off building my own for the moment Thanks to ALL for the cross-over help, I'm going to tweak heaven this weekend. Any advice please - always let me know...I'm in constant 'learning mode'.


[This message has been edited by Smart Little Lena (edited November 05, 2002).]

There are a lot of 'kits' out there that you can cut your DIY teeth on. Might be a nice way to upgrade your surrounds if you can find a kit using ScanSpeak drivers....

Having apparently scared you off "serious" DIY (with, I believe, good reasons), I would on the other hand recommend an easy and cost-effective sub-woofer DIY that I believe would be a significant upgrade if you have a Def Tech sub. Parts Express does a kit for a 10" powered subwoofer which they dub the Titanic II (I guess they're not into history) that can be assembled in a couple of hours. Amp and all is a little over $300 and will outperform up to about twice that much. The looks are low-grade and I wish they offered it in MDF for self-finishing but they don't - its basic black and not very nice even at that. If you decide to get it, post for some useful suggestions about assembling it. I'm pleased with mine given that I bought it as a 2-3 year stopgap. Unlike my center channel, I'm even using it with pleasing results with my mains when I'm listening to music. Event hough it sounds like my room is quite a bit larger than yours, I DO have aesthetic considerations too and the 10" gives good performance while being quite unobtrusive.

Sounds like you have a very understanding merchant (although perhaps you have achieved that level of understanding by a high amount of custom). You REALLY should listen to the Linn Ninkas (less than half the price) before making your final decision if not too late.

My own experience has been that "sweet" is a synonym for "lack of accuracy" - although I would NOT say that "bright" is a sysnonym for accuracy. The Thiel speakers, for example, are to my ears considerably sweeter and less accurate than the Linns but in extended listening, it is the "sweet" speakers that I find to be a bit more fatiguing.

I would concur with Charlie that there ARE kits that are very adequate for surrounds but not for mains.

I have no familiarity with, or even knowledge of, the Outlaw amp that I think you are using. An issue with mixing speaker types / brands is differing impedances. IMHO ability to handle a wide range of impedances is a major but not-often-talked-about quality differentiator between amps. If the outlaw amp has separate power supplies for the different channels, shouldn't be too much of a problem, but if not, watch out ...

“You REALLY should listen to the Linn Ninkas”. I’ll look them up on the web and see if I can find a local dealer (although my sales guy would be soooo disappointed…) I’m in the limited time boat for ranging far and wide. But I DO have 30 days. To be honest there are many many speakers that I hope I get to hear in the next years…now that I care. But some of these are mail-order only or just extremely hard to acess in limited time. And its not that I have not been listening (or have not had 'ears' even though not actively shopping. I still have a ‘sound’ in my head I’m aiming for and if something besides the Beth. can better it by much….I think I’ll faint.
"sweet" is a synonym for "lack of accuracy" When I saw the term sweet used about the Vennias on a couple of consumer posted reviews. I thought that word (as I think of it) doesn’t come to mind with these speakers. They seem closer to ‘clear’ like water. But then I’m not always sure of the general consensus on the exact intent of much of the terminology/jargon in AV. (Still learning how to ‘talk’ it). I do know that whenever I hear what I think of as ‘bright’, it hurts my ears…. Some slower than others. I seem to hear 2 broad categories of brights going on out there in pre/pros and speakers….One bright is more on what I would call the accurate side, but still on most of these to greater/lessor degree I get the sensation that it is fatiguing on a slower scale. And one ‘bright’ which to me at its worst is hard-edged or even bordering strident and fatiguing very quickly. Remember that’s (my bright) but I need to get the jargon down as to how this industry perceives each term. (But I have been accused of even coming up with new words in the English language if I think it’al fit.) I was once told don’t use ‘dark’ as a term for warmer sounding setups. But that’s the word that pops to (my strange little mind) when I hear very warm sounding pre-pro’s. ‘A dark sound’. I wish you could hear these, I would like to hear your opinion (75 miles!). But to be honest I was not ‘Thrilled’ with any of these speakers in the store. Every one, had one ‘area’ in its sound that appeared lacking to me. The Vienna’s came the closest to doing this the least, or at least had a broader range of ‘what I think I like’.
When I paired them with the Outlaw they are stunning (acoustic guitar plucks make you want to cry) , and to be honest, I felt instantly …now this is ME.
(If I was a speaker ….something like the ‘voice’ I’d want for myself).
I noticed the impedance difference’s I have going on now….I did not care to try and understand the ramifications of this before when I had the matched set of Def Techs. All I knew with orginal speakers were specs were in line with what the Outlaw amp could handle. So far I’m not hearing a problem with the Outlaw running this new unmatched setup….However, I never hung my BL/BR of the Def Techs so the Outlaw 770 is not handling a 7.1 load yet. I just realized while I was working today….(Yippy) that tonight I can now wire for a singe back surround by just moving an interconnect!!! (The previous SR) Picture a room where everything is off axis to the walls. The way the Def techs were hung I have the SR behind me in a way that will work (temp) as a center back, till the dang husband gets in the dang attic. (I’ve never even heard my 950 in a 6.1 or 7.1 Setup!)

Charlie your right!. From the little I’ve read so far a sub is a great DIY jumpoff. Right now I’m just hoping the new speakers will inspire him to help me figure out the permanent stand/storage for the TV and the gear. He came home and started talking about it again….and said we need to get this all finished and organized…(fingers crossed).

This is exactly what I mean when I say that you will know when you find the right speakers- they will speak to you! I agree for HT I'd probably set the fronts up as small, but give please give 'em a listen for 2 channel configred as "large". They have plenty of bass capacity for most types of music and will probably sound awesome.