And may not care about room EQ. Are there any compelling reasons he should not jump on a $700 990 instead of waiting for the 997?

I'm reading all about stats, but I'm curious to hear from some experienced folks who own the unit.

Thanks in advance!

-Joe

Well, currently nobody owns a 997, of course, so it's going to be at least somewhat supposition. Having said that, I think a pretty strong case can still be made for the Model 990. You will be giving up room correction and internal video processing, and you will need to look for a Blu-ray player with multichannel analog output when you decide to get into Blu-ray. Otherwise, the 990 remains a very good performer even today.

This may also be useful: I've spent a fair bit of a time with an Onkyo PR-SC885 since the latter part of last year, and prior to that I used a Model 990 for over three years. Granted, my room's acoustics are pretty reasonable and I had an SMS-1 to help with subwoofer EQ, so I'm not the best person to evaluate the full potential of Audyssey to fix problem rooms, but I wasn't especially amazed by Audyssey. Additionally, the one source that needs video processing the most in my system is my cable box, but a combination of the box's own stubbornness to provide an unprocessed signal and the slow video signal acquisition time of the 885's Reon have left me continuing to use the cable box's dreadful deinterlacing and scaling. Oh, and my wife has said numerous times that she preferred the 990 - sonically, she heard no benefit to the 885, and functionally the 885 gets on her nerves in ways that the 990 did not (slower audio signal acquisition, for example). Fortunately we already had a good universal remote, because the 885's remote would have driven her up the wall.

Thanks for the input, gonk. I am leaning heavily towards a 990.

Regarding the Blu-Ray player - they don't have digital audio outputs? Or is it just in a format the 990 wouldn't understand? I don't know much about Blu-Ray.

-Joe

As I stated in another thread my 990 meets all my needs. I hook video directly to the source and the analog connections provide great sound. I have no need for room correction so I will stick with my 990.

If you don't need/care about the room EQ or HDMI then you almost have to jump on the 990 for 700 bucks.

They all have optical and/or coaxial output, which works fine for CD's and DVD's. But Blu-ray offers several new audio formats (Dolby Digital Plus, Dolby TrueHD, DTS-HD High Resolution, and DTS-HD Master Audio) as well as the option of having raw multichannel PCM on the disc. None of these can pass via optical or coaxial, as the only digital output that can support them (either as bitstreamed signals or multichannel PCM decoded by the player) is HDMI. DD+, TrueHD, and both DTS-HD formats all carry "core" DD and DTS tracks that can be passed via optical or coaxial, but it's a lesser quality - especially for TrueHD and DTS-HD Master Audio, which are lossless formats. To get the full benefit of those formats with a non-HDMI v1.1+ receiver or processor, you need multichannel analog (similar to DVD-Audio and SACD). That's one of the reasons that the BDP-83 is getting so much attention, as it combines Blu-ray, DVD-Audio, and SACD in a single chassis with a really good 7.1 analog section.

Thanks for the clarification, gonk. Does this imply that HDMI will become more important to me in the future when I buy my Blu-Ray player, or will most good BR players support analog out?

I guess what I'm asking is, is it better to let the Outlaw have the unmolested digital signal or to let the BR player decode the signal to analog?

Or is it six of one half-dozen of the other?

Thanks again,

-Joe

At present, the only mainstream format which uses HDMI's audio pathways to do things that can't be done equally well with coaxial or optical is Blu-ray. DVD-Audio and SACD can also use HDMI's digital audio connection, but (as much as I enjoy them) they are niche formats. HD-DVD can, as well, since it supported the same audio formats as Blu-ray, but hardware support for it has been nonexistent for over a year now (Toshiba completely pulled the plug last year). For other sources that offer HDMI for audio and video, you can use optical or coaxial and lose nothing. So from an audio standpoint, I recommend that you have access to either multichannel analog or HDMI for audio when getting into Blu-ray. For other sources, you can use HDMI if your processor supports it or you can use coaxial/optical - either way, you get the same thing (PCM stereo, Dolby Digital, or DTS).

Is it better to pass a digital signal? It can have some advantages - that's typically the only way to use room correction software such as Audyssey or Trinnov, and it lets the surround processor do the bass management. The analog option isn't necessarily bad, though. For example, the 990 will still provide full bass management of the 7.1 Direct input, and using a player with a well-designed analog section can potentially rival a digital signal path. It comes down to cost. If you already have a good non-HDMI processor and don't want to upgrade it, analog makes all the sense in the world. And if you look at the 990/BDP-83 combo (as an example that offers a good analog path all the way through), you can get both the surround processor and the player for $1200 - which is less than the 997 alone will cost. There are several folks I know who already own 990's and are interested in Blu-ray, and because they don't need the added features (or don't want the added complexity that those features will likely require) I've suggested this approach to them.

For video, I recommend HDMI. It certainly has its faults (HDCP being a major part of the problem), but it also offers the best way to get HD video signals to modern displays. The 990's DVI switching will work fine with HDMI sources and HDMI displays, so if you have a couple of such sources you can still use the 990 to provide some automatic switching.

Well, cost is really the least of my concerns at the moment - at least in the price range of the 990/997. I'm more concerned with longevity - will I want to upgrade the 990 in a year? Is it worth it to deal with my broken 950 2-3 more months to grab a 997 at the intro pricing? I know I can buy a 990 now and get $200 off the 997, but it's not really worth it to me to have to tear my system apart twice.

I'm still not convinced either way. I do love the convenience and lack of cable bird's nests HDMI affords, at the very least. It also appears the 997 will support future digital audio formats, giving me a wider range of media players I can choose from.

OTOH I can have the 990 now and it may be all the processor I'll need for the next 5 years, as long as I choose media players with analog output.

-Joe

History suggests that there won't be "intro" pricing on the 997 - it will launch at $1399 and likely stay there for at least a year or so. You could think about buying a 990 now, getting the $200 discount on the 997, and then trying to sell the 990 for $500 to break even.

Having HDMI will give you a bit more future-proofing, certainly, but I still think that the 990 can be a pretty sweet foundation for a home theater system - and you can get it now, with the only wait being the time it will take to get from Outlaw's warehouse to your door.

I'm currently running a 990 and am totally pleased with it's performance. The 997 will probably be great, but the controling word there is prabably. It doesn't use the same DACs as the 990 and will , therefore, sound diferent. Worse ? Better ? As good ? who knows ?
The 990 is something of a classic , I couldn't ask for a better processor at the price. Or for that matter, at twice the price. If your concerned about processinmg new formats , that can be done in the disc player. Can the 997 do a better job ? Who knows.
I've been tempted by the 997's equalization as I have a very strangely shaped room for my HT set-up , but the 990 sounds so good that I'm confident that any potential improvement would be marginal.
I guess my point is that the 990 is one of the all time great pre/pros. Outlaw is making the 997 so I'm sure it will be of very high quality, but I really doubt that it's going to be a huge improvement over the 990. How much can you do for $1400 ?

I asked myself this question: What features does the 997 offer that would compel me to wait and purchase it? I use a 990 and recently added a Blu-ray player with 7.1 analog out. So for me the only major advantages of the 997 would be video processing of inputs such as a VCR and cable box and Trinnov room correction. If both of these features are important I'm sure the 997 will be a fine product and will be worth waiting for. If you don't need room correction (as Nostalgia originally noted) but need just video processing then the $700 DVDO Edge might be an option to add to a 990 and 7.1 Blu-ray player.

Well, I bought a low end receiver to try out HDMI connectivity and Audyssey (Onkyo 606). I liked the one cable connectivity, and Audyssey actually was nice, but audio was what I expected from a low/mid-fi receiver...not so good. Anyway, since I sold it and bought a 7500, I've been trying to decide what to do about a preamp/processor. I've thought about the Onkyo 885/886, but some of the problems people seem to have encountered have given me pause. Thought about a receiver to use as a preamp, but I'm not really wild about that either. I guess the more I think about it I'm leaning to going back to a 970 or 990, selling my Oppo 980 and Panny BD35, buying an Oppo BDP83, and just be happy. I won't have room correction that I'd get with the 997 (whenever it comes out!) but I can get a 990/BDP 83 for about the same price as the 997. Of course there goes one cable connectivity too, but hey, I hung on to my HDMI-DVI cables from my 970. Sound like a plan?

I think that there will be a lot of folks with a 990/BDP-83 setup. The combination plays well to each product's strengths.

I have the Oppo BDP-83 and Outlaw 990 combination. Working fine for me. Have no real inclination to upgrade. The 990 even compares favorably to my McIntosh C2200 for two-channel.

Thanks for all the great input everyone. I took another look at the projected specs of the 970 and my current system, and I may be leaning back in that direction. I'd be able to switch all of my video through the 997, making my life that much easier.

We'll see. I'm in no hurry. It's good exercise having to get up to adjust my 950


-Joe

I just went through this decsion back in March. I have two audio video systems and my living room system built around Magnepan 1.6 speakers and a Threshold s500/e power amp needed an updated preamp/processor.

I decided on a 990 and have been very pleased with it's build and sound quality and features. HDMI was not really needed in that system as it is mainly used for music and I don't have an HDTV hooked to it anyways...just a sony 27 inch crt.

My main home theater system in my family room was another story though since video is a major part of what I use it for. In that application HDMI and video proceesing were inportant and I went with an Integra dhc 9.9 there. I am very satisfied with it's performance as well.

As far as audio performance, I think the 990 and the integra are in the same league. They both sound very very good and meet all of my needs in the applications they are used in.

If you don't have a need for HDMI capabilities in your pre amp, such as when you will be hooking your video directly to your TV, then the 990 should be all you need.

Add me to the 990/BDP-83 lineup. I'm really happy with the new Oppo and I think that the analog inputs, although kind of messy from a "back of the beast" perspective, are sounding fantastic! I was looking forward to drooling over the 997 (even if I had to buy a phono preamp)but am now feeling like the 990, all dialed in and working fine, will do me for quite a while.

Well you can count me in the Model 990+ BD Player w/ 7.1 Audio Analog outputs. I finally was able to put the $ together for the legend. It has been a long itme coming for me. Woo Hoo!!!

I tried the Onkyo PR SC 886 but for the life of me couldn't figure out a lot of it and I didn't like the fact that I had to find out about the firmware udpates and how to do them via a totally different convoluted ad filled forum. Onkyo customer service as well as their official service personel weren't helpful @ all.

I can't wait for my 990. If and when the 997 comes around I'll see how things go but I know I have a quality component coming my way with A LOT of good customer service and support. This forum really goes a long way for a guy like me.

Thx JD.

Outlaw ships fast. I recall I ordered mine on a cold day in early march at about 11 in the morning. They had it shipped out a few hours later.

Like others in this thread I am using a BDP83 with 990. The analog vs. digital, (when comparing either as yet non-BD discs or CDs) clearly has the analog sound better. I even had Mrs. nfaguys do an A/B. She thought the analog was clearer. It was. And of course SACD was magnificent.

I might add that the digital cable was good glass. The analogs were just cheapies that come with gear over the years.

I don't need HDMI switching in a pre/pro. If I did there are several good ones.

Still. I anticipate with interest the launch of the 997 and the excellent reviews which will come on these forums. Thanks guys.

I have the 990 - 7.1 input - BDP-83 combination, and I am nothing short of amazed at the sound and picture quality. With adding the BDP I feel like I a jumped a whole another level, and I didn't really think that was possible (so to speak). I hope Outlaw does great with the 997, but I think they may have to rely on some new customers because right now I can't see upgrading to a 997 until I'm really looking for places to spend money (and maybe not even then at that point...how much longer is non-DVD video upconversion really going to be relevant?...and I remain a skeptic on room correction).

Re the original post - Nostalgia even if you end up doing other things, perhaps for the potential benefit of future readers I'll pile on and say folks should really consider a 990/BDP-83. You get to enjoy them immediately, and I think are likely contenders to last in anybody's setup for a long time.

Can someone comment on the important differences between the various 900 series models? Correct me if I'm wrong, but are the primary differences between the 950 and the 970 mostly in video connectivity? They both seem to offer the same surround modes (actually the 970 and 990 dropped one). Component bandwidth is more than double in the 990 and the 990 offers both phono input and 7.1 discrete (vs 5.1 discrete in the 970 and 950). It seems that if I switch video outside the processor and only need 5.1 vs 7.1 (I don't really have a way to truly setup a 7.1 system in my family room and 5.1 sounds good enough) and use an external phono preamp the 970 or even 950 (used ones show up on ebay now and then) might still be good enough.

Model 950 : Outlaw's first surround processor, introduced in 2002. Offered two component inputs but no video transcoding from composite/s-video to component. Offered Pro Logic II, but released before Pro Logic IIx existed (had a Cirrus mode that offered similar function). Used Cirrus 49300 processor, had a triple crossover, and 5.1 analog input had analog bass management.

Model 970: Processor version of the the Model 1070 receiver, introduced right around the end of 2005. The feature set is comparable to the 950, but updated by three years or so. Uses a Cirrus 49400, which adds Pro Logic IIx, a quad crossover, and some more discrete setup controls (separate distances for each speaker). Three component inputs, with transcoding from composite/s-video to component, and two DVI inputs. The 950's 5.1 analog input got upgraded to 7.1 analog, and the analog bass management switch was expanded - it also offers an option for digital bass management.

Model 990 : introduced in mid-2005, based on the Sherwood R-965/P-965 platform. Uses a Cirrus 49400, so the processing mode options are similar to the 970. As with the 970, there are three component inputs (with transcoding from composite/s-video) and two DVI inputs. There are also balanced outputs. Because Outlaw didn't develop the platform in-house, the analog bass management switch is missing, but the 7.1 analog input gets digital bass management. There's also the phono input. DAC's and sound quality on the 990 are a step up from the 950 and 970.

Thanks, that's a good summary. It looks like the 950 has the ability to select from 9 different sources (10 if you count the built in tuner). The 970 has only 8 sources (9 with tuner), and the 990 has 10 input sources (11 with tuner). The 950 does NOT put one of the inputs on the front panel, the other two do.

Compared to my Onkyo '702 receiver the 990 is still the best upgrade (though the Onkyo is 'THX' certified to some degree which the 990 isn't). However the '702 has problems routing video (limited BW maybe) so I route video using the TV to switch (it has 4 hdmi, 2 component, and 2 standard video inputs). I suspect a handful of gainclone amps might sound better than the 702's built in power amps, which IS something I can do to improve upon it.

The 990's front input can be assigned to rear connections (any of the digital audio connections and either component or DVI video), so it can be used without having something connected to the front. I used that ability. The 990 also allows you to edit input names, something that we really liked.

When comparing products like this, you also need to consider more than purely specs. For example, how good is the analog section? (The 950 and 970 are quite respectable, and the 990 is even better.) I would not be a bit surprised if a 950 paired with an amp like the 7125 would sound better than an Onkyo 702 paired with the same amp. (The receiver by itself would not be a fair fight.)

Is the HDMI audio capabilit similar to 7.1 analog in sound quality or does it compare more along the lines of Toslink

HDMI audio is a digital interface. It supports multichannel lossless audio in various formats, which optical and coaxial cannot do, but the sound quality is also dependent on the hardware around it.

So would I lose SQ through HDMI or is it comparable to the Analog input. My reasoning is that if the SQ is the same between HDMI and Analog using the BDP-83 for instance am I better off getting the 990 and using analog from the BDP-83 or using the 997 with HDMI

HDMI offers support for the new high-res audio formats - it's the best choice for digital audio with Blu-ray. Sound quality also depends on the equipment being used, though. We haven't heard the 997 yet, so it's real hard to say how it's analog performance will match up to the BDP-83's analog performance through the 990. You will have access to Trinnov with an HDMI connection to the 997.

I saw a post this morning on AVS from someone with a Yamaha receiver (a recently mid-level model with HDMI) and a BDP-83. He'd been using HDMI for a week or two and been very pleased, but based on some ongoing discussion about the BDP-83's analog section he hooked that up as well and tried it. He found that the sound quality via analog was clearly better than via HDMI, which is because the BDP-83's analog section is better than his receiver's analog section. Without having heard the 997, I would guess that the BDP-83 could match up fairly closely with the 997 for analog performance, but you won't be able to use Trinnov on the 997 via analog.

Quick question, is the Sherwood P-965 similar to the 990 (but it is missing the balanced outputs).

Yes. The Model 990 is based on the R-965 platform (the P-965 is an R-965 without amps). There were significant changes made for the Model 990, though. In addition to the balanced outputs and DVI switching, Outlaw largely re-wrote the firmware (different setup menu interface, different bass management, and some other changes).