Hello everyone ..... HELP!

I was under the impression that I could attach both balanced and single ended cables to my amplifier, an Anthem Statement A5, as long as only one source was live (either/or), at a time.

Given my lack of total satisfaction with the 990’s, two channel analogue mode, a friend encouraged me to use my Zana Deux, tube, headphone/pre-amp:

http://www.eddiecurrent.com/Zanadeux.html

as my two channel, analogue, music listening source. So, I connected it also to my Anthem Statement A5

http://statement.anthemav.com/HTML/Products/A_Series/A_Series.html

via a pair of single ended cables and listened to a cd. I must admit, I was totally blown away, literally, by the performance of my speakers, my DQ 10’s, as I’ve never listened to and/or heard them before. I had a busy afternoon and, so, despite my desire to continue the listening experience, had to leave. Unfortunately, I forgot the kill sequence and turned off the ZD, the pre-amp first and in doing so, heard an unexpected “POP.” Having heard this sound from my old system, I didn’t think much of it, thought it was because it was single ended, not balanced, without the ground. Later that day, I turned on my TV, via my sat box, 990 and Anthem amp. I immediately noticed that it was much quieter, but it took a while to realize that only my center channel was playing and not my main speakers (oh’oh). I tried to change the format within the 990’s menu, but it wouldn’t allow me to. I shut everything down and checked the circuit breakers in the amp (they were ok) and then the fuses in the speakers. Sure enough, the fuses fried. Fortunately, I had an old pair and reinstalled these. I turned on the cd player, first, then the ZD, and finally the amp; I was happy to discover that everything worked as it should, flawlessly. However, when turning off the amp, first (this time), expecting no pop, it did, in fact, make the popping noise again, only this time, not as loud. I checked the fuses and they were all still OK.

Next, I tried my 990 pre/pro and again, no sound from the main speakers. I have an external tuner, attached via Aux and again, no two-channel sound. Now I really started to worry. I clicked the ZD’s source switch around, but it made no difference. Then, I pulled the single ended cables, from the ZD, out of the back of the Anthem amplifier and tried again. This time, the 990 played as it did before, through the main speakers, also.

From what I understand, the ZD should not be making a popping sound and, via headphones, when turned off, it does not. The Anthem amp, without the use of the ZD, does not make any noise when turned off. So, I guess, my main question is: why has all this unfolded as it has? I’m a mechanical guy that loves music, my understanding of electronics is limited to a senior high school level; but, somehow my guess is that I’m not going to be able to marry the two systems together, the 990 and ZD? Am I correct in this assumption and if so, why?

Any and all information very much appreciated. You can’t imagine the panic scenario!

Thanks,

John

Did a little reading on that Zana Deux unit - looks like one hell of a headphone amp.

I've looked through the Anthem manual and couldn't find anything about how the amp decides when to use balanced input versus unbalanced input. What I'm worried about is that having both connected at once is somehow confusing whatever "auto sensing" it must have. I'm not sure how that might directly result in the issue you are seeing, but it is the place that my suspicions gravitated to.

Gonk,

thanks for coming through; I knew you would.

Yes, it's a beautiful pre/headphone amp. I lucked out, purchased it used from someone that was dissatisfied, in part, because he was using the wrong input tube for the headphones he had.

Yes, I've come to the same conclusion; it's a problem in both directions, both with the ZD and with the 990. I think the only way I can use both is with a switch within the amp, which changes inputs and that makes it way too complicated; it already is.

I wish you could have heard my old speakers, driven by that tube pre. I'd invite everyone to hear it, if I could figure out how to marry everything together. I'm afraid the only solution is to pull the main speakers out of the surround setup, separating the two systems.

On the other hand, I've come to appreciate the detail and precision of quiet listening over the original intention of these speakers, which was/is pure American hot rod; but what a joyful hour it was. A day later, I think my ears are still sore, still ringing. Sorry ... getting carried away.

In any case, it's not going to work, combining the two. It’s either one technique/approach or the other.

Again, thanks Gonk and how are you? I tried pm'ing you, but your mailbox is full.

John

Definitely a system that sounds like a lot of fun to listen to. Hopefully you can get the two-channel working well soon.

I guess I need to clear out the PM inbox again. Doing fairly well - work is busy as usual, daughter has started pre-kindergarten and is enjoying that, and I'm still not driving. Crutches are an upgrade from the walker in most regards (move around faster, handle steps much better), but I miss being able to carry things. Going to see the surgeon again next Monday, hoping to get cleared to at least drive soon. I could even put up with the crutches for a while longer if I could transport myself from point A to point B without having to plan out in advance who was going to drive me. :rolleyes:

Sounds like what you really need is a good two channel preamp with home theater bypass. These are connected between the prepro and the amp.

While I'm not familiar with the Anthem Statement A5, I can tell you that my Gemstone amp must NEVER have both the balanced and unbalanced terminals (of the same channel) connected at the same time.

I think that it wouldn't be too difficult to have the preamp modified to make one of its input sources "pass through". Then you could connect your front left and right outputs from the 990 to that "pass through" source.
The outputs of the preamp will then be connected to the power amp.
This will, I believe, give you what you want.

I doubt that. It likely would involve some circuit board trace cutting among other things after any reverse engineering to figure out what to do in the first place. If there is relay swtiching, it might be impossible without major modification. Labor rates being what they are, I would bet that unless the preamp is extremely simple and laid out in an extremely obvious way, the cost to do such a mod would not be worth it.

The ZD engineer said it is possible to make use of both pre-amp types, but that:

The only exception would be an input selector switch on the power amp selecting balanced, or unbalanced, but not both at the same time.

I think he prefers the simple route, either (990) or (ZD).

It's unfortunate because each listening experience is very different from the other, yet both desirable. What it would cost to have the amp changed, in this way, with such an input selector switch, is not something I have any idea about.

The best way is probably to pull the main speakers out of the HT setup, separating the two systems. For now, I'll leave it as it is (it’s complicated enough, already).

I appreciate the responses and suggestions.

Gonk, I’m glad to hear you’re doing fairly well, improving and getting stronger. I’m not surprised to hear that your daughter is enjoying school, and the fact that she's going should also makes things a little easier for you. I can imagine your impatience, regarding your inability to drive; but, hey, why not take advantage of it, enjoy the opportunity to let others do the driving. I’m sure it won’t be too much longer.

And, good luck with the surgeon; I hope he has more good news for you!

John

Another option would be to use unbalanced outputs from the 990 for the left and right channels (just as you are with the ZD), put a switch box in between the 990/ZD and the A5, and manually switch between the two sources. You'd need to re-calibrate the left and right channels of the 990 (probably need to give the trim on those two channels about 3dB of boost when you change from balanced to unbalanced), but otherwise there would be no change and I doubt your wiring runs are long enough to create a real need for balanced connections.

Balanced connections do not exist on today's equipment, except in some instances with professional gear. True balanced lines use isolation transformers on each end of the cable run. This is way too expensive for consumer gear. Transformers afford not only common mode rejection, but provide electrical isolation as well.

What you are really referring to is a differential connection. This simply inverts the polarity of the signal and sends it down the cable along with the non inverted signal (non-inverted on pin 2 of an XLR and the inverted on pin 3). The only advantage to this connection is common mode rejection, which can take care of EMI/RFI interference and break ground loops in some instances.

Thanks for tidying up after me, Altec.

Here's a simple test: use the RCA cables you were using with the ZD to connect the 990 to the A5 and give it a listen. Unless you get something nasty (hum or buzz), there's no harm in migrating to that permanently with the 990 and you can much more easily incorporate a little audio switch that allows both the 990 and ZD to share the left/right channels of the A5.

Gonk, you've managed to keep hope alive, as I had resigned myself to giving up.

Is there such a thing as an input selector switch that you can buy, as a separate and complete component?

And, better still, what are the chances that such a switch exists for XLR connectivity?

thanks,

John

The first one is easy, as there are a number of input selector switches around. Here are a few examples that I found:

• 2 in/1 out switch - the most basic, just enough to do what you are looking for here
• 3 in/1 out switch with remote
• 4 in/1 out switch
• 3 in/1 out switch with remote
• 4 in/1 out switch with remote
• another 4 in/1 out switch with remote

As for whether such a switch exists that includes XLR, I've not ever seen one...

Well,

I'm lucky number 13, with this response! Hope it brings me good luck.

Thanks, Gonk; you make it sound almost too easy.

The pre-amp is about 15, 20' from the amp and Sonic Frontiers, or Anthem, as they're now called, recommend balanced XLR for runs any greater than 6'.

Nevertheless, I sent them this message, just to be clear and certain:

Hello,

I'm currently driving my Anthem Statement A5 amplifier with an Outlaw 990 pre/pro, using balanced, XLR connectors. I also have a beautiful, two channel pre-amplifier. As I'm not content with the pre/pro's musical performance, it's been suggested to me that I use my tube preamp for music, the pre/pro for everything else.

I understand this amp has an internal auto input selectivity switch. Is it possible, then, to drive SR, C, SL with balanced XLR cables, while simultaneously driving the FL and FR with rca inputs (from the pre/pro)? If it is, does this mean I could potentially use an input switch between the pre/pro's FL and FR rca outs and my tube pre-amps FL and FR rca outs, so I could use either/or?

And, while I can turn off my 990 pre/pro with my remote, it actually remains active, does not shut down completely unless I hit the kill switch on its back panel (which, given it’s location, is not convenient). Could this mean that the three xlr inputs remain active and if so, would this pose a problem for the FL and FR rca input options while using my tube preamp?

Is this doable? Please, what would you recommend?

thanks,

John

The pre-amp that's 20' away is the ZD, right? If so, Anthem's recommendation doesn't apply because it lacks the appropriate outputs. Long runs are still perfectly doable over that distance as long as you take care with your routing. Altec is actually a good example (his amp closet is separate from his component rack, with long unbalanced runs, and by all accounts his system is simply exceptional).

Gonk,

thanks for this. I wish I would have known that, a few minutes ago .... but, too late now.

Yes, it's the ZD that's 20' away.

Can I drive the LF and RF channels with the rca inputs, if the three center, XLR channels are still live somehow, from the 990 (off with the remote, but still powered on)?

Thanks,

John

Yes, you can drive the left and right channels of the amp via RCA cables (using either the ZD or the 990, with a switch to select) while using XLR for the other channels. If the ZD were selected, all you would need to do was make sure the 990 wasn't actively playing anything (muted and/or on an inactive input).

Gonk, even if the amp has auto input selectivity?

If it is possible, which switch would you recommend, with the least signal degradation?

thanks,

John

I can answer that emphatically - use the unbalanced connection whenever you can, and in truth that should be always in any normal home situation. I use a 25' unbalanced run between my preamp and power amplifier closet, and if anything, my setup is more critical of noise than normal with my 106dB/watt efficient horn speakers.

Differential connections via XLR will always degrade the signal more than the simpler unbalanced route. The signal must be converted from the native unbalanced state inside your preamp to differential, which means extra circuitry which the signal must go through.

If you don't have a ground loop which cannot be dealt with by any other means other than using the differential connection, go with unbalanced.

The power amp will work just as well with either connection.

Anthem's manual isn't terribly clear on the matter of how it decides between balanced and unbalanced, but any sort of auto sensing must be done on a per-amp channel basis, and should not be done globally. As a result, using unbalanced for two channels and balanced for the other three should not pose any problem whatsoever.

Thank you both.

I've read about the switchers and at least one reviewer complained of degradation in sound quality. So, I think I've decided. I'm going to buy a pair of quality rca inputs and simply pop out the XLR, put in the rca and visa versa, when switching between systems. It's a bit of b.s. but may be worth it, without signal loss.

This sure has been a learning experience for this old brain of mine! lol

Again, thank you both!

John

The plot thickens!

Man, I appreciate the tech support here and especially from you, Gonk. My feeble mind has a problem digesting all this.

I phoned Anthem tech support and as long as the 990 is in standby (off with the remote), that means the Anthem's auto input selectivity switch will sense an XLR input. This means that if I want to drive the amp, directly, with the ZD, with a pair of single ended cables, then, I have to either pull all five XLR cables or hit the kill switch on the back of the 990 (which given its location, is not easy to do).

If I hit the kill switch, on the back of the 990, will this cause me to lose my setup configurations, over time?

Also, he talked about another, safer solution, using something called "unity gain" (Ok, means zip to me). As I understand him, I'd have the two channel preamp feed the amp through the 990 (meaning the single ended cables from the ZD would attach to the 990 and feed through the XLR cables to the amp). To do this, however, he said that "unity gain" is required. What does this mean? Is this doable?

Or, is he saying the L and R 990 channels would pass through the ZD and then to amp (ZD in the middle)? I'm confused! lol

Any and all information much appreciated and thanks,

John

So if you have any channel connected via XLR, they all have to be? That sounds odd - I'd ask for a clarification on that one. It would certainly be highly inconvenient if someone had any reason to mix channels like we're discussing, not to mention the fact that it seems like they're almost making it harder than it needs to be by tying each channel's auto sensing together into a global behavior.

Killing the power on the rear panel should not cause the 990 to lose its settings, as those settings are in a non-volatile memory (hence the ability to retain settings across power outages - my old Model 950 remembered its identity even when it went 11 days without electricity once).

I could be wrong here, as we are moving beyond my usual territory, but I think that by "unity gain" he means basically a complete bypass of the 990 (including volume control, such that the "gain" or volume applied by the 990 is completely wide open, all the way at maximum). I honestly don't know quite how you'd do that with the 990, but there's definitely not an easily-selected option for this that would preserve the clean signal path you are trying to achieve with the ZD and A5.

Gonk,

I didn't ask that question, but, based on his response, the answer appears to be "yes." He understood precisely what I'm after and knows the amp, its his job; I don't think there's any mistake (reinforced by his idea of using a unity gain method). I could call again, to be sure, but my sense of the conversation was that he knew exactly what he was saying (understood my concern, immediately).

I think your idea of "global behaviour" is correct. While unrelated, directly, it's built so that the five channels share two torroidal transformers.

More and more it seems like it's either one way or the other, unfortunately.

On the other hand, the original owner of the company said it would be possible with the use of an additional switch, inputs and rewiring. What it would cost me and whether it's worth it, that's another question.

"Unity gain" refers to a type of home theater bypass that some two channel preamps have. It is different from the type of bypass that works even if the two channel preamp is powered off. The Cary SLP03 for example has this feature. There is some controversy over which type is superior. Cary claims that a unity gain bypass helps avoid hitting your amp (and speakers) with too much signal if you inadvertently left your prepro "on" with the volume high when turning off the two channel amp in bypass mode.

Connecting the two channel preamp's output to the inputs of the prepro defeats the purpose of using a separate (high quality) two channel preamp. The high quality two channel preamp must be connected directly to the power amp to realize it's superior analogue abilities. A two channel preamp with home theater bypass, whether unity gain type or not, can do this since the output of the prepro is connected to the bypass input of the two channel preamp, and the two channel preamp's output is connected to the power amp's input.

"On the other hand, the original owner of the company said it would be possible with the use of an additional switch, inputs and rewiring. What it would cost me and whether it's worth it, that's another question."

In other words, they can install a home theater bypass.

skiman,

thank you for the explanation. The technician didn't explain it nearly as well. My (high quality) two channel preamp does not have this feature.

No, they meant adding another pair of single ended, rca inputs to the back of the amp, with a switch. Whether this is possible, or not, without compromising or changing the entire wiring approach, I do not know, nor do I think does he.

It's looking like the best method will be to relocate the 990, so I can have access to its main switch and manually plug in and pull out the 2 channel preamps out/inputs.

Any thoughts?

thanks,

John

How about something like this?
http://www.kramerelectronics.com/indexes/item.asp?desc=69

Hullguy,

How would I use this unit? Could I attach only the balanced L & R XLR outputs from the 990, as well as the pair of single, rca ended, two channel preamp outputs to this unit and then output a new, pair of XLR cables to the L & R XLR inputs on my amplifier, switching between the two inputs via this unit? Is that how it would work out for my application? I'm not sure it actually allows for switching; either that or I'm missing something?

How much of a degradation in sound quality would I be facing?

Man, this sure seems confusing; or, am I just getting old?

thanks,

John

Why don't you use unbalanced cables for all connections and just use a simple passive switch box at the unbalanced inputs of the power amplifier for the music only channels? Honestly, using the balanced connection, considering it involves yet another active electronic stage, will have the potential to degrade the sound more than the simple unbalanced setup I described. This assumes all your gear has unbalanced connections in addition the the differential.

Gee, that couldn't be more simple. By doing so, I wouldn't have to hit the 990's kill switch, nor worry about the three remaining inputs; isn't that so?

This seems to be the best solution, so far!

Thanks, Altec!

John

Umm, yeah - what he said. (No comment as to why it took the rest of us this long to skip to the underlying solution...) That definitely seems like the cleanest approach in a lot of ways. Unbalanced from the 990 to the A5 for center and surrounds, then unbalanced left/right from both 990 and ZD to a switch box ahead of the A5 (or just manually switch cables around, although I'd personally prefer to track down a good quality switch box).

A good quality switch box would be the most practical, although I've yet to find one. The problem is how to gauge its quality. Switching cables would eliminate potential signal degradation.

No problem, Gonk. This has all been terribly confusing to me, but, on the other hand, I've learned a great deal (a good thing). I did not know that balanced means a double signal conversion and had I known that, would never had gone that route.

Thanks,

John

The beauty of a passive switchbox is that there is no real "quality" issue beyond the simple robustness of the connectors and switch elements. Basically a mechanical switch is a mechanical switch, is a mechanical switch. As long as the switch makes a connection (they all do), then there is no possibility of degredation of the signal in any way.

Heck, even RadioShack sells passive swtich boxes for under $20. These have video connections in addition to the audio ones, but these can simply be unused. There are other switch boxes out there I'm sure, but the operative word is PASSIVE. No electronics between the input and output - just a mechanical swtich.