I have a 990 and currently use Zone 2 to run 4 sets of speakers (i.e. 6.5" ceiling mount, 25w sustained/50w peak, 8 ohms, and 88dB sensitivity) in 4 different rooms throughout my house (i.e. kitchen, dinning room, living room, and office). To accomplish this, I have the 990 Zone 2 connections going to the Left and Right connections on a 7125 (the other 5 7125 connectons are used in my main zone for the Center and 4 Surrounds); and then the 7125 Left and Right connections go to a Phoenix Gold speaker selector (6 selectable zones), which I use to select and run one, more, or all of my current 4 sets of Zone 2 speakers. Note that I use my Zone 2 speakers for background ambiance and thus while the speakers suit their purpose quite well, they are definitely not supposed to be mistaken for reference quality. Accordingly, as noted above, I run the 4 sets of my Zone 2 speakers in parallel (with 1 set or all for sets running simultaneously) through a single set of Left and Right 7125 amplifier connections.

However, I now want to add to my system 4 to 6 "good quality" outdoor rock speakers as well as 1 or 2 good quality outdoor rock subwoofers--although I am fairly new to this game, I guess I must now officially admit that I have gotten the audiophile bug! Given that (i) I have 2 open zones in my Phoenix Gold speaker selector, (ii) I want to have access to the same source material (mostly CDs) as would be available and playing in my current main zone and Zone 2, and (iii) I am all out of additional Zone 2 amplifier connections, I believe I could simply add the outdoor speakers onto one or both of the 2 open Phoenix Gold zones. However, I want the outdoor speakers to have a little more refinement and punch than my current Zone 2 ceiling setup (e.g. something closer to my NHTs in my main zone than my ceiling speakers in my Zone 2), which seems to me to be improbable if I simply add good quality outdoor speakers and subs in paralell to my existing 4 sets of Zone 2 speakers all of which could (and likely would) be running simultaneously through a single set of Left and Right 7125 amplifier connections.

Given the above, my questions are as follows (and you may assume my knowledge is limited if you haven't already guessed that based on my questions): (i) can the 990 Zone 2 output be split and fed to two different amplifiers (i.e. my current 7125 running the single Left and Right set of connections for the inside portion of Zone 2 plus another amplifier for the outside portion of my planned Zone 2 addition), and if so what do I need to accomplish this and be mindful of while while doing it; (ii) assuming the answer to (i) is yes, is there any way to adjust the volume of the outdoor portion of my planned Zone 2 addition separately from the inside portion of Zone 2 (or at least further increase the volue outside as I would think I would want the outdoor speakers louder than the indoor speakers); and (iii) again assuming the answer to (i) is yes, what is the best way (and any alternative ways) to add/incorporate a sub on a conventional two channel stereo system as is the current Zone 2.

Any thoughts or insights would be appreciated. Also, let me know if upgrading my 7125 to a 7200 would make any difference in your thoughts and insights as I will be making that upgrade in the next few months to lesson the load on the current 7125 7 channel amp.

Ed.

I don't have much time this morning (got to get the 3-year-old up in a little bit, then head off to work and a 4-hour off-site meeting), but I can offer some brief thoughts. Might be able to provide a bit more later...

First, yes the zone 2 output can be split. You can get splitter cables from places like Radio Shack or MonoPrice pretty readily. The split will produce a few dB of signal drop for both signals, but that can be overcome by turning the zone 2 output up a few dB.

Second, having separate volume control is feasible, but less simple. You have already passed through the pre-amp, where your main point of volume control is located. You can use additional volume controls downstream of the amps, but the ones I'm familiar with will be the equivalent of lighting dimmers: they will reduce only. Thus, if you want the outdoor speakers to be louder, you would need to turn the indoor speakers down. An alternative is to get a separate amp with gain controls for the indoor speakers and turn those gain controls down a bit. (The 7125 does not have gain controls, which is why I'd probably pair it up with the outdoor speakers in that scenario.)

As for the sub, where will it be? Will it be part of the indoor speaker setup? Either way, the issue is the same: there's no bass management at the zone 2 output. As a result, you would need to either have a separate bass management device (such as Outlaw's discontinued ICBM-1, although Paradigm also had a small unit at one time that served this purpose) to split the signals or run the speaker cables from the amp to a sub before going to the speakers. In the second scenario, the sub's crossover would divide the signal and pass on the "high" signal to the speakers while retaining the "low" signal to play itself.

Gotta run now. Hope it helps.

Just a thought, You might wish to add a second processing source to control your outdoor system.
a second preamp-amp/intergrated amp/receiver fed by your 990 zone 2 output would give you the ability to control the volume seperately and would provide a means for managing the bass in your outdoor zone. The drawbacks would be another unit to turn on and off and the cost, though 2 channel intergrated amps can be had for a reasonable sum, especially used, and it should replace the 2nd amp.

Gonk and Koyaan, thank you both for your responses, which lead me to ask the following questions:

1. What, if any, difference will adding a "distribution amp" instead of a splitter cable between my 990 and the additional outdoor zone 2 amp, especially considering that my additional outdoor zone 2 speakers may have more watts, and may have different sensitivity and/or ohms?

2. aswAQ21Given that I may likely drive 4 to 6 speakers and 1 to 2 subs in my additional outdoor zone 2, would it be better to have more than the two

2. Assuming my additional outdoor zone 2 amp will notWhat is the "term of art" name and/or name of product/manufacturer of the device I could use to control volume (so I can search

PLEASE IGNORE MY INCOMPLETE/GARBLED POST AS MY 3 YEAR OLD SON TRIED HIS HAND AT USING MY COMPUTER BEFORE I FINISHED! I WILL FINISH AND REPOST LATER.

I use the Behringer A500 2 channel amp for my second zone for my out side and it has independent output controls. I got it new for 180 bucks and it is now listing any where from 165 - 200. Not sure about using a sub with that amp but is does a great job.

TAKE TWO!

Gonk, Koyaan and Mzpro5, thank you for your responses. I now have the following additional questions:

1. What, if any, difference will be made adding a "distribution amp" instead of a splitter cable between my 990 and the additional outdoor zone 2 amp, especially considering that my planned Zone 2 addition may have more watts, and may have different sensitivity and/or ohms?

2. Gonk suggested that I run my proposed outside Zone 2 through my Left and Right connections on my 7125 (or soon to be 7200) and find a different amp for my indoor Zone 2 speakers. However, given that I may likely drive 4 to 6 "good quality" speakers and 1 to 2 "good quality" subs in my additional outdoor zone 2 (which will likely have more watts and could have less ohms and less sensitivity), wouldn't it be more desireable to have more than the two channels for my proposed outdoor Zone 2 system? In other words, wouldn't it be more desireable to leave my current indoor Zone 2 running on the set of Left and Right channels on my 7125 (or 7200) and buy a multi-channel amp (that may have volume/gain control) to run my outdoor system? If so, any suggestions on such an amp in addition to Mzpro5's suggestion for the Behrenger A500? Also, any additional thoughts on the Behrenger A500 (it seems 500 watts would be sufficient for my purposes even if I run between 5 and 8 outside speakers in paralell)?

3. Mzpro5 suggests using the Behringer A500 for my proposed outdoor Zone 2 addition and says it has independent output controls, is this equivalent to volume/gain control that will allow me to "pump up the volume" in my outdoor Zone 2 higher than my indoor Zone 2? Or, is it effectively a built in dimmer switch which can only be used to turn the volume down--similar to what Gonk was referring to in his reply?


4. Assuming my additional outdoor zone 2 amp will not have volume/gain control), what is the "term of art" name and/or name of product/manufacturer of the dimmer switch device I could use to control volume (so I can search on-line)? Any suggestions on such a device?

5. When installing the dimmer switch device, where in the system can/must it go (e.g. between the source and the amp or between the amp and the speakers)? If possible, I would like it to be between the amp and speakers so that I c

5. To answer Gonk's question about the location of my proposed Zone 2 subs, they will be outdoor only and not part of my indoor Zone 2 system (my indoor system will remain subless). In any event, with respect to subs, is a base management device--such as Outlaw's ICBM--necessary if the sub has its own cross-over that can split the signal and send the high frequencies to the satilite speaker? Or, is a base management device simply a luxury when the, especially on an outdoor system even if a "good quality" outdoor system?

6. Assuming I decide to forego a base management device, is there anything in particular that I need to bear in mind when selecting a sub that has an internal cross-over?

Thank you in advance for any additional thoughts any of you may have.

Ed.

1.) As to distribution amps, in theory they provide some boost when spliting a low voltage signal several ways. I have a somewhat similar setup to yours with multiple megachangers and use a radio shack distribuion amps to split the analog channels directly out of the megachangers to feed the signal off to seperate zones feeding the digital signals to the 990 only. This has worked well for me, but I'm not technically adept enough to tell you if it's really necessary.
If we're speaking of the same device when we say distribution amp, I don't think the resistance of your speakers will impact it but will impact tthe power amp thats driving the speakers.

2.) I have an abundance of old receivers about so I use a Denon 3800 in my familyroom recieving signals from the megachangers in the home theater, the 990 itself, and local digital inputs from an Oppo DVD player and a Cabel box. This supports a 5 channel system in the family room and a 2speaker and sub in the Dining room. I also use an old Techniques reciever for a 3rd zone in the excercise room/library and patio. I find that having the ability to incorperate local sources in the remote zones is benificial in my situalion and the ability to control volume and manage bass locally is necessary.
3.) I don't have any experience with the Behringer. Receivers do the job for me but they're only practical because I happened to have them. They probably wouldn't be a practical alternative if they had to be pruchased.
4.)Gonk will probably clarify the "dimmer switch" issue, but there are devices generally called speaker selectors that take one set of speaker level inputs and feed multiple sets of speakers working some magic to keep the resistence up so that the amp doesn't overload. many of these have individual volume contrlos but do not amplify the volume so the controls can reduce the volume of the signal received, but not increase it. Such devices are used after the amplifier and before the speakers.
5.I wouldn't think an ICBM would be necessary in your zone 2. As I've said, I use receivers to provide bass management, though the crossover in a subwoofer should work just fine. The quality of the crossover will likely vary with the quality of the subwoofer. I'm not familiar with outside "rock" speakers or subwoofers but I would think the selection would be limited. You'll want a powered rather than passive sub and you'll want to look for one with a variable low pass filter if you purchase these seperately. If they come in a set with the speakers, they are probably already set with an appropriate crossover to compliment the speakers.

The Behringer has actual volume/gain controls, one for each channel. Pretty simple unit but very effective.

We seem to be running into more and more folks asking about doing whole-house audio lately. I think this is probably the third thread this month where such discussions have cropped up. Alas, I've never done such an installation, so I have to rely solely on things I've read and seen online rather than things I've actually installed and listened to.

You're going to have a sub (or subs) outside? Interesting - I don't recall ever seeing a subwoofer designed for use outside. Makes me wonder about any possible performance issues associated with such a large "room" as well as waterproofing concerns. Would the subs be passive units with an amp located inside? If it's a passive sub (which I'd think would be almost unavoidable for a permanent outdoor installation), then the bass management discussion changes. At that point, the sub itself has no crossover, so you need to do something upstream of the amps if you want bass management. Those old Paradigm units (the Z10 through Z30, if my memory is working today) have some potential here, but I would think something comparable may also exist that is actually still in production. You might also get a subwoofer plate amp with an adjustable crossover, but it's going to be ugly to look at. All of this assumes, of course, that an outdoor sub is passive. If it's an active sub, though, you still need to think about your wiring: speaker wires from amp to sub, then speaker wires from sub to a set of speakers. I don't know if you would want to split the speaker wiring after the sub to go to two sets of speakers, as I start to wonder just what sort of load the amp is seeing at that point. It might work fine (especially with a stout amp capable of low-impedance loads, such as the Outlaw amps), but it just sort of makes me worry a bit. That's another possible benefit of the passive sub, as all of the wiring goes back to the equipment rack without any "daisy chaining" along the way.

I don't know enough about the Behringer amp to know how it would work for either the outdoor or the indoor application. In either case, it is only a two-channel amp, not like the multichannel "distribution amps" I've seen marketed for whole-house audio. The specs on it are interesting: 2x230W into 4 ohms (compared to 190W per channel for the 7125 or 300W per channel for the 7200 when operating with a 4 ohm load), or 500W when bridged to mono at 8 ohms (which doesn't do you much good when driving four or six speakers). The gain controls would definitely be useful. I'd say that you could get one and either use it to drive the outdoor speakers while the spare Outlaw channels do the indoor speakers, or use it to drive the indoor speakers while the Outlaw channels do the outdoor. I don't know which arrangement would be better, but if I had to guess I'd suspect the Outlaw would have an edge sonically over the Behringer.

KOYAAN already touched on the speaker selector devices that help manage the impedance seen by the amp - when you get beyond two speakers on one amp channel, I feel a bit better about things if a device like that is present. A potential added benefit would be integrated volume control if you already have speaker wire run and can't easily add a wall-mounted volume control in each space. As for those additional volume controls, the devices I've seen would be between amp and speakers - this page has a bunch of examples, including many that include impedance matching.

I've thrown a few ideas out, but I did it without much real order. Let's review that list of questions from Wednesday and see if I've answered many of them...

1. A "distribution amp" (at least the ones I've seen) may still need to have the input signal split beforehand, but it probably depends on the amp. I have seen a Channel Vision amp (the A1260, 12x60W at 8 ohms) that offers both separate local inputs for each pair of amp channels and a separate global input, however, and an amp like that would let you hook the 990's zone 2 output to a single point and drive as many as six pairs of speakers from that one amp with no splitters. An amp like that could potentially serve all of your indoor and outdoor amplification needs in one chassis, although you'd still need to address volume control in each space.
2. I've touched on this a bit already, but I'll toss out one other possible idea: get a Model 7075, split the zone 2 output several ways, and let each outdoor speaker have its own channel on the 7075. No integral gain controls, but it's an amp that should very effectively give you optimal performance from any outdoor speaker (or indoor second zone speaker) you might have.
3. Typically, gain control on amps is not the same as a pre-amp volume control, so it probably isn't adding gain to the incoming signal - just turning down the gain when asked to.
4. I'm no expert on these, but the link above is where I'd start my research if I was hunting for something along these lines.
5. We've also covered this one already, I think.
6. Not really - you'll need a sub with speaker-level inputs and outputs on its amp, and there should be some crossover adjustment available so you can "dial in" the crossover you need. The adjustment is standard on powered subs, and the speaker-level are very common (although not used everywhere).

Looking back at this, I guess I can see why it took my more than a day to write. Sheesh...

I think for what you are trying to do you should go in a different direction. I'd start here

[url=dhttp://www.nilesaudio.com/docs/DesignGuide/NILES_ZR_SysDesign.pdf][url=dhttp://www.nilesaudio.com/docs/DesignGuide/NILES_ZR_SysDesign.pdf][url=dhttp://www.nilesaudio.com/docs/DesignGuide/NILES_ZR_SysDesign.pdf]dhttp://www.nilesaudio.com/docs/DesignGuide/NILES_ZR_SysDesign.pdf[/url][/url][/url]
All the wiring is done in cat5 which will save some money on cabling.

Gonk, Koyaan, Mzpro5 (and Hullguy), thank you all very much for your initial and additional responses. I appreciate that you took the time write detailed and thoughtful responses. I believe I have enough background information to plan and install a solid outdoor system. If any of you are near Westport CT next summer, look me up and we could have some bar-b-que and beers while listening to the outdoor system (and my indoor system too). One thing that sucks about my new CT home from my roots in CA is that the winter weather prevents year-round backyard enjoyment (admittedly though it does help to be able to tell the wife we can delay the purchase until spring)! Thanks again.

P.S. Gonk, there are several company's making outdoor subwoofers, including Boston Acustics. You can search the net for products and reviews. I have 2 1/2 acres and my usable entertaining and play areas are about 400 ft wide, so I thought a couple good subwoofers would help fill in the backyard area (along with 6 "good quality" speakers in three listening "zones").

edcrash

Hope your neighbors are either music fans or don;t live too close.

I checked out Boston Acoustics' site and saw their outdoor sub. It's a passive sub (not surprising) and is meant to be paired with their SA1 amp (which can apparently drive two subs). The good news is that the amp has an adjustable crossover, although it is low-pass only (the signal going to the other speakers remains full-range because there's no high-pass crossover and no output for it anyway). That's not likely to be an issue in your outdoor installation, as you can simply let those outdoor speakers roll off anyway, but it isn't something I'd want to rely on for a more "critical listening" system. The other issue here is that it doesn't have speaker-level inputs. You will need to split the pre-amp signal (coming from the 990) and send the signal to both the sub amp and the speaker amp. It's a little more spendy than I'd anticipated (list prices are $1000 each for the passive subs and $600 for the amp), but it could be made to work.

You could theoretically split the 990's zone 2 output and send separate signals to the SA1 and the Channel Vision A1260, then power up to two subs and up to six sets of speakers. You'd still need to address volume control. It's going to end up being more expensive, but the Niles ZR solution would actually address things even more gracefully: connect the zone 2 output to a Niles unit, put in local control panels in each space and run Cat5 back to the unit, connect existing speaker wire and run new speaker wire for the outdoor stuff, and use the separate preamp output (which seems to be standard on these units) to feed the SA1 sub amp. You could even have a couple separate sources just for the distributed audio system, and could select between them for each space.

Hullguy (and Gonk), I refreshed myself with the Niles system. Although it is quite robust, I really can't incorporate it at this stage. My house is already built and the wife would not allow me to incur the expense nor tear apart her fully decorated house for "my" silly stereo system when she would be more than satisfied with the cost and quality provided by a Bose Wave Radio. So, unfortunately, Niles is a non-starter.

On the other hand, the Channel Vision A1260 looks kind of interesting. I could use that to run all my 4 existing indoor zones and possibly 2 outdoor zones, and use my two extra 7125 (or soon to be 7200) to power the outdoor subs which I believe could use the extra power. I am wondering though if the Channel Vision A1260 will provide enough power for the Paradigm or Boston Acoustics rock speakers (the two I am considering at this early stage given fairly positive reviews I have read)--I am not quite adept enough at this stage in my hi-fi understanding to "know" whether the power would likely be sufficient. In any event, I doubt I will be getting the Boston Acoustics outdoor subwoofers because they seem quite pricey to me too considering they will be used outside and then only occasionally given the short outdoor season in CT.

And, Mzpro5, one of the benefits of moving to CT from Southern California is that I went from neighbors nearly on top of me (even with what was considered a "large" lot) to neighbors that I basically cannot see! So, hopefully, the sound in my outdoor system will not travel that far and through the trees--besides, my wife will be the additional regulator on volume!

Again, thank you all for your thoughts.

Recommended power ratings are always problematic in my mind. The Boston Acoustics rocks, for example, list "10-150W" as the recommended power - that's a pretty wide range. Both company's speakers seem to be coming in around 89dB efficient, though, so 60W would seem like a reasonable power level for either brands' "rock" speakers.

This is a revival of an old post wherein Gonk summarized his thoughts as follows:



With respect to Gonk's thoughts about splitting the Zone 2 output several ways so that I could run an Outlaw 7075 or perhaps the 7125 or some other multichannel 75 watts plus amp, I have the following three questions: (i) where can I find a multichannel splitter (I am aware of Y splitters, but not multi-channel splitters);(ii) what kind of base and stereo management is availalble if using a multchannel splitter so that I can use the same multichannel amp to power the setup for simple stereo with up to 3 sets of speakers and a subwoofer (will the Outlaw ICBM work for such a multichannel stereo setup?); and (iii) where in the system would the base/stereo management go?

On a related note, the Channel Vision A1260 seems like a great choice especially because it has a 1 input/6 output option, but I am concerned that it only has 60 watts per channel and I am afraid 60 watts may be underpowered for a large outdoor area. Therefore, another multichannel amp with more power but with a similar 1 input and multiple outputs might work too. Anyone know any high powered amp that has such an option? Of course, I will still have the base management issue, but I believe the Outlaw ICBM will work fine in this type of configuation where there is need for only one set of stereo outputs (that feed the 1 input/multiple output amp) and one subwoofer output that would likely feed a dedicated subwoofer amp (possibly a plate amp) with even more power. Any additional thoughts would be appreciated.

Thanks in advance.