Ok....let me start out by saying, I have an Emotiva LMC-1. The ONLY reason I went with Emotiva instead of Outlaw was because of all the 990 "software issues" I kept reading about on this forum. Well, come to find out, the LMC-1 also has its various functional issues/quirks as well. I've only been so-so with it happy at best.

I know that Outlaw and Emotiva are both fairly new companies and I REALLY would love to see both them succeed. BUT, it concerns me that both companies seem to struggle with "getting it right" the first time. Do you think the software issues of the 990, 970, LMC-1, and MMC-1 are all flukes??? I'm sure that Rotel, Adcom and McIntosh have their issues. It just seems like you don't hear, see, or read much about them. Maybe because Outlaw and Emotiva are internet based, they tend to "air their dirty laundry" more.

I want to beleive in Outlaw. In fact, I'm looking foward to seeing what the next generation 990 has to offer. But...I'm scrared. Why should I take the risk? I could go out and buy a more expensive Rotel or Anthem product with few to no issues. No? I guess owning an LMC-1 and reading all the problems/issues posted on both companies forums....I've kind of lost faith.

Everything I've read about Outlaw's (ESPECIALLY OUTLAW) & Emotiva's customer service is FIRST RATE....which is awesome. But, I would much rather visit this forum and read about how great Outlaw products are, instead of how they jumped thru hoops to replace 3 pre-amps at no-charge. To me, getting it right the first time is more important then any follow up customer service. In todays business environment, great customer service should be a given with any purchase you make.

One last thought.....I find it interesting that companies like Adcom, Rotel, Anthem, McIntosh, etc. don't offer forums like this. Is it because they don't want to "air their dirty laundry?"

SOMEONE PLEASE REEL ME BACK IN. I'M LOSING FAITH!!!!!

I understand your perception J Wags. People in general are more out spoken when something is not working right and willing to hang onto an issue until they feel resolved. Customer Service Departments rarely get the customer call just to let them know their products or services are working great and doing exactly how they were advertised to perform. Instead they only hear the problems. Outlaw is unique in that they allow all their laundry to hang out in their saloon. I know I was impressed and saw enough of the quick short messages of happy customers on their product and support to buy the 950 many years ago. My purchase has worked perfectly until one issue about 4.5 years after the initial purchase that was repaired perfectly at no charge. Yes I’m thinking of the 990 on sale and yes I’m thinking of the next generation but only because technology has advanced. My 770 just keeps working flawlessly without a wrinkle. I guess others could step up and tell you their stories of how wonderful their Outlaw equipment is but the story is only worth telling once (unless asked again). From my point of view, Outlaw works very hard to provide high quality at more then competitive rates. I think you’ll find that all the manufacturers have some bugs and the difference is Outlaw supports putting it all on the table with this website. While I completely understand the frustration you read on the list with some system issues, I think you’ll find a much bigger list of very happy Outlaws that feel they received what they paid for and then some.

I think Kubrickfan has it right. I applaud Outlaw for hosting an open forum on their own server, this shows a lot of confidence in their product. I've been reading reviews on all the new processors coming out, along with the older processors, they all have problems.

The beautiful thing here is that consumers know that they can reach those that are behind the products and see resolution. Outlaw appears to be very hands on with their customers, which allows us to have open conversations with them on the forum.

I'm waiting out for the new processor. I know there will be some problems, but witnessing their promptness and eagerness to make things right, I have no apprehension from buying at release. They will take care of me, the customer.

Im sure those companies have their issues also. You would hear about them on the popular audio forums right ?

My $5000.00 Bryston SP2 had to go back to the factory. My $6000.00 Simaudio Supernova was exchanged by the factory. My $90,000.00 Boston Whaler had to go back to the factory. None of these are made in China by the way. So wipe your nose and stop your snivelling.

Hi there.

I used to have a 990 and was generally satisfied with it. I sold it because of the bass management problem that went unresolved for months (at that time) and for which there was ever little comment offered by Outlaw.

I'm a firmware engineer with ten years experience and an MSEE (I only state this so you understand my background and perspective). I've worked on lots and lots of firmware bugs; I've done lots of firmware testing; I've developed features and I've fixed others. I'm sure that every device that has firmware in it has bugs -- well, most anyway; there may devices like jetliners and such that are so simulated, tested and redundant that they do not. But generally speaking, from your refrigerator to your cell phone to the PC you are reading this on to your Outlaw 990, they all have firmware, and they all have bugs. The bugs that get out in released code are usually hard to find, difficult to reproduce or 99%+ benign.

The fact that Outlaw has repeatedly released bugs in the bass management concerns me. Outlaw publishes a bass management matrix, which explicitly defines the behavior of the various channel outputs, and how LP and HP filters are applied to the signals. The fact that the 990 was not working as described by the bass management matrix is a problem because it clearly shows that the 990 was not tested in the most basic fashion: the device should comply with the specs that are published and given to the end user. The bass management matrix is rather straightforward and would be easy to validate by anyone with an oscilloscope (in the case of the bypass mode problem) or Dolby signal generators of some type. The fact that this, and other things, were overlooked shows a lack of rigor in the testing.

In addition, there should be an internal test document that goes well beyond the basics. I hope that those types of tests were performed...

The type of bugs that one would normally expect would be those that are dependent on uncommon usage (e.g., push the "up" button twice, and then select "tuner" three times, and then the device goes into reset. That's not a real bug on the 990, but one that, if released, I would accept as outside the scope of normal testing, and one I could live with because I would never select "tuner" four times in a row). Also, bugs can also sometimes show up because of strange and asynchronous behavior from other devices (e.g., the audio input from your DVD player isn't following the spec for its signal type). I can't expect Outlaw to test against every signal DVD player in the world to ensure that 1) that other DVD player is spec compliant and 2) that the 990 can handle any and all weird behavior from that device (although I would submit that there is some necessity to handle errant behavior from the input device -- to some degree).

The other real problem I had with the 990 and the bass management bug was that it took sooooooooooo long to fix it. Over a year. In the Saloon post that announced the new firmware, it was noted that some in the Outlaw community had speculated that the delay was due to some apathy on Outlaw's part. It was also noted in that post that the delay was due to the new Cirrus Logic chip. Now, I don't know the cause of the real delay, but I do think that a year for resolution is far too long. I've seen firmware bugs (and ASIC bugs) that I would estimate are more complicated, in a system that's more complicated than a preamp, and they don't take a year to solve. I'm sure that Outlaw has more going on than fixing the 990, so I cut them some slack in that they can't do everything at once, but still. Once they did release the firmware, there were no release notes, and people were forced to speculate on the changes. Release notes should have been offered at the same time the firmware was released.

Like I said in a separate post, I think that Outlaw is generlly good with customer service and swapping out non-functioning units. However, when it comes to addressing more complex and deep issues, things get a little more rocky. In the case above, when I notified Outlaw of the issue, I was treated as some type of fool, and that the system couldn't possibly be doing that -- even when I linked them to my measurements and graphs. Additionally, the problem was AUDIBLE!!!! Now, this was not Scott or Peter, but an employee that is no longer with the company. I was generally given the same treatment when my OSD was flickering and ultimately not working (I finally agreed to take a B stock unit just to get things working again!).

I'm sure this sounds pretty critical of Outlaw, but it's just my experience. I don't mean to slam on them, but perhaps they can take some of my perception to further enhance their generally excellent customer service.

Now, as to the device itself -- I had mine for about a year and a half. Aside from the problems already mentioned and discussed, it worked pretty well. Sound and functionality was there. Still, keep in mind that this is a budget preamp. It delivers a good bang for the buck. There is always an opportunity for firmware issues, no matter the price point. I was tempted to buy a new fully HDMI capable preamp (Integra DTC-9.8) but decided to keep it simple just because of the technical headaches -- read the DTC-9.8 page on AVS. If you want to pay more, you can, and you may get something better. I think someone mentioned McIntosh, and that's one that I think doesn't have many FW issues. Someone mentioned Anthem, and it had a problem. Both of those cost a lot more than the 990, and I'm sure it can go either way with issues. It comes down to the way the issues are handled in the end, I suppose.

Anyway, good luck with your decision either way.

My thoughts on the LMC-1 have been said at some length in the past, so I'll leave them along for the moment. Instead, let me take a moment to speak in general terms about the transparency of the internet-direct business model.

Companies like Outlaw Audio, OPPO Digital, Emotiva, AV123, HSU Research, and SVS (to name some of the most high profile) exist in a different environment than Anthem, Arcam, Lexicon, Rotel, and similar "traditional" manufacturers. Their customer base communicates directly with itself (customer to customer) in a very public manner - either in company-run forums such as what you have here, or in third-party forums like AVS or HTF. This leads to several things, some good for the companies and some less so.

On the one hand, you have a great knowledge pool. Customers can help each other, share experiences, answer common answers, and be a community in a way that was almost unheard of a decade or so ago. This is both a marketing benefit and a support benefit for these small companies (and even the biggest internet-direct manufacturer is a small fry in the CE industry). On the other hand, the transparency created by the internet can often create some perception issues regarding reliability. I'll dust off a line of reasoning that I've shared before, both in forums and to friends and co-workers who were shopping for electronics. It's a variation of the classic "squeaky wheel" premise. Let's say you have a group of 1,000 customers, all of whom bought the same product from an internet-direct manufacturer. Let's further assume that that 25 of those customers encountered problems (a 2.5% sampling). All 1,000 customers had to get online to find out about the company, although many may have opted to place orders by phone. If the company has an online forum, it's possible that fewer than 100 actually registered accounts in the forum and maybe half of them (or less) actually posted. The 25 customers with problems had a very specific reason to register and post: they were squeaky wheels, and maybe 15 of them used the convenience of the forum to squeak (especially if, like many of us, they ended up setting up their new gear late at night or on a weekend when phone support was unavailable). That means that out of those 1,000 customers, 2.5% had problems, but out of those 50 customers appearing in the forum, 30% had problems. All of a sudden, you see what appears to be a dreadful "failure" rate.

Let's take this same scenario, and move it to a traditional brick-and-mortar company. Of those 1,000 customers, a significant portion will "meet" the company at a dealer's showroom rather than a web site, they will make the purchase from the dealer, and they will not have a manufacturer-specific forum to turn to. There are certainly third-party forums like AVS where owners of that gear can congregate, but it's a different kind of consumer. The folks in the forums are more likely to be the knowledgeable ones to begin with, as they sought out the forum and the specific owner thread. A much smaller sampling of customers and potential customers are going to see those threads and the problems discussed there, so the impact of the internet's transparency is reduced.

This hobby has seen massive technological changes in the last ten years or so, and there are some unfortunate side effects. I routinely complain about two of those: complex user interfaces, and poor documentation and user education. The industry as a whole has (at least in my opinion) let the consumer down significantly with user education: HDTV alone makes TV so much more complex, and the explanations of it all that are available are sorely lacking; and the tremendous power available from surround processors and receivers comes with a lot of complex issues to understand. This is something that I look to small manufacturers like Outlaw to really handle differently. The manuals offered by Outlaw and OPPO Digital are consistently better than average (something that I have a hard time saying about your LMC-1's manual, but I've expressed my issues with it elsewhere).

The other side effect of all this added complexity and the speed at which it has come is tight deadlines to develop hideously complex technology. This complexity means that it is nearly impossible for any manufacturer to get a product to market without some problems. Look at any manufacturer, and you will find problems that need fixing - although you won't necessarily find fixes for them, unfortunately.

Otto states very well my view of the bass mgmt situation and Outlaw in general. I wrote my first software in 1970 and have been involved in all aspects of software and product development at some time or another in my career. Somewhere, there is a disconnect relative to the either knowledge and understanding of the harware platform or a lack of rigor in the system development life cycle methodology. I've seen both in spades. I'd guess that Outlaw has learned from this as to how they can improve their processes.

gonk:

I enjoyed reading your reply. To your comment...

...I would add that no amount of beta testing can completely innoculate a product against bugs. And the fact is, it may not be until dozens or hundreds of units are in the field, and/or are in usage for some time, before the manufacturer (1) receives problem reports; and (2)can begin establishing patterns that point to a specific failure point within the product. Vehicle recalls are a prime example.

Lastly, I will chime in with my usual, hackneyed tales from being in the business 20+ years ago: Nearly everything we sold had issues or problem areas of one sort or another.

Maybe it was a bad set of drivers with a speaker. A propensity to blow fuses with a particular amp. Or a bad batch of pumps for an air bearing turntable. Fact is, the gear could be just plain finicky.

And that stuff was far less complex than the gear we have today.

PS: I own both Outlaw and Emotiva products and do not regret any of my purchases.

This is a good point, and its especially true for smaller manufacturers that can't afford to conduct really large-scale external beta tests or operate really large internal test labs. There are simply too many possible combinations of hardware, and especially with technology like HDMI those combinations can generate some weird issues.

My boss has a saying (something that he adopted after lots of talks with our liability insurer): "There are no perfect plans." The goal is to get as close as you can, and work hard to manage problems when they do arise.

Yes, Outlaw presumably falling into the "small manufacturer" camp.

I know it's little solace to those who have had buggy 990s or 970s (like me), but the notion that Outlaw knowingly released a product they knew had problems and/or did not have confidence in, is neither fair nor accurate. And that notion has been floated in the saloon before.

I think that's made them a little gun shy with release of the next generation of processors (that, and the chip problems), but there's no guarantee these will be glitch free either.

I strongly believe that once your interest in the audio / HT hobby reaches a certain level, and with it, your system becomes more sophisticated and performance focused, you're getting outside the plug and play realm and into a more maintenance intensive system that has greater potential to "act up," if you will.

At least, that's been my own observation over the years. My first system (Technics) was probably the simplest and lowest maintenance gear I ever owned. But certainly not the best sounding, by a long shot.

To the question of beta test, I'd like to throw in two thoughts:

First, the idea of "widespread beta testing" in the software world is somewhat simpler from a cost standpoint since the actual materials cost of each beta copy is virtually nil -- if the software is distirbuted electronically, it's "bandwidth to download" cost only. Compare that with the cost of shipping heavy pieces of hardware that, even at cost, are expensive to testers and you see where the limitation will creep up on you quickly.And, unlike in software, the early pre-production samples an electronics manufacturer uses are often not "off-tool", and are thus MORE costly than release product.

Beyond that, I don't recall exactly, but I do seemto remember that the Outlaws did beta test the 990 and 1070/970 with external users, and given all the controversy at the time, I KNOW that the did external testing with the 950. One has to presume that they took the results of those tests to heart.

Since I own both I'll throw in my $0.02 . I owned a 950 (along with a 770 and cables)for 62 months when it became non functioning. I had been having issues with the unit resetting all parameters to the factory default every time the power blipped. When the unit was new it happened very infrequently but as the years went by it seemed to happen almost weekly. Outlaw services response was that "It is not uncommon for the 950 to behave that way". Shortly there after the IR stopped working, still usable but try setting all the parameters through the front panel ...... not fun.

I thought about buying a 990 as a replacement but I couldn't get over the fact that the 950 was dying after only 5 years. Given the fact I paid over $900 5 years ago I couldn't bring myself to throw more money at it for a repair. I needed something and wasn't feeling much love for Outlaw at the time so I decided to give the Emotiva MMC-1 a 30 day try ..... zero regrets.

I do make comparisons between any of these units and my trusty JVC receiver that I bought in '81. It has been in the garage for over 20 years, temperature swings from 0 to 100 degrees throughout the year and has never failed to deliver.

I personally don't draw any parallels between company size and quality of product. I consider the 770 a very high quality product but the 950 not so much anymore. As for the MMC-1 only time will tell.

J Wags,
Yes, Outlaw is worth it.

You don’t hear about the ‘Rotels’ unless it is involved w/ a review. Why would you want to test/listen to a product if it is given a bad review or has problems w/ user interface? Even then – is the sample sent for review a production unit?

With Outlaw and other Internet based companies w/ forums– you can search responses about there equipment. Read comment from people you would have otherwise never heard from.
My experience with this forum – it is pretty open and honest.

This is an interesting thread…..

I answer to you ½ way around the world. I am visiting a subcontractor that manufactures parts for my employer.
I’m in Taiwan.
So I see first hand what quality is and can be. There are many factors that play into the quality.
Suppler choice, in part, is driven by cost. Outlaw could find another supplier or turn up the specifications requirements on the current supplier – which would be followed by a price increase.

There where post about made in America. People…. Smell some coffee and wake up. Don’t assume if it was made in the USA it will be better. Last time I checked – Kazan is not American – and yet every major manufacturer in the US has used it in there quality department at some time the last 20 years. Where did it come from – Toyota and Japan.

A little cultural deviation.... i was having a conversation with the divisional manager in one of our pacific rim facilities. to quote, " You Americans and Europeans can design the crap out of anything.... not us Asians - there are a few exceptions. But it is not in our blood. Now give us a process or a product and we will produce almost 100% efficiency and reliability, we will kick your butts....it in our culture."


Could somebody tell me where to purchase an American made TV? The closest you can find is ‘Made in Mexico.’

My question is what would all of us do if Outlaw was not available – did not exist?

If you had issues w/ your Denon, Bryston, Sony, B&W speakers or what ever – what would you do?

How do you know if a fellow customer of brand x (traditional brick and mortar) – who purchased the same item in Canada or the other side of the country or even across town had the same issue as you?

I agree the equipment should work as advertised. If it dose not – return it. If you are still un-happy take your money and go some where else.

With-in my family and several friends of my brothers – there are 14 pieces of outlaw products: 1 receiver with known bug. There are 3 - 990’s and various amps, etc. No issues.

J Wags…. Let me reel you in out of the dark and cold. Outlaw is a viable choice in gear. Is it the only one …… NO.
For a little perspective – even Canon and Nikon have issues with there $1000+ SLR’s. I had to do some digging – but I found Canon cameras w/ dirty or less 100% working CMOS sensors issues (20D – before it was retired/replaced by 30D).
I still purchased a Canon 20D and it travels w/ me around the world to this day.

I feel relieved when I purchase a product and find it was made in Taiwan and not China.
For the money, Japan produced some great recievers during the 60-80's. I still use a Pioneer reciever built 1979 with no issues. I had, up till 2 years back, had a Sansui AU1100 that finally gave me some problems. It took 29 years for a problem to surface .
Japan was not making best the recievers in the 60-80's, they were making a good product at a reduced price.
I don't see that in "Made in China".

Great post, tmdlp. The conversation you mentioned is pretty interesting, too.