does any one know if outlawaudio will release new pre-amp with hdmi?

Just want to know how long i should wait.
thanks a lot

Yes, they will be releasing a pre/pro (or possibly even more than one) with HDMI v1.3 support some time in 2008. Based on some news from October, we shouldn't expect anything sooner than this spring, but there's nothing concrete available at this time regarding features, pricing, or any firm delivery window.

If the past is an indicator of the future, 'new stuff' is often announced/shown in conjunction with the Home Entertainment Show, usually in New York City in the middle of May. Often there are introductory deals!

I sure wish Outlaw would really try to speed things up. I am very seriously looking at getting the new Integra 9.8 pre-amp. It has all the audio formats, balanced outputs, 4 HDMI inputs, for around $1600.

While I would like to keep the "Outlaw" seperates (7700 and 990) together, the desire for HDMI inputs is overwhelming!

I am not sure I will be waiting much longer.

As with the LCR, I'm sure they won't put anything out until it's ready for prime time.

Better to work out all the glitches and get things done right out of the gate then put out a subpar product earlier.

My prevoious experience as an early adopter has taught me that impatients leads to paying too high a price and setteling for inferior quality.
I'm holding out for this whole market to mature a little bit.

I agree with KOYAAN, in that rushing with the complexity involved here is a dangerous proposition. Also, there were some hints in the October announcement that left me wondering if they even could speed things up without imposing significant limitations on capability (limitations that could leave them with a "lame duck" product once others caught up).

Well, I can honestly say that I for one can't wait for Outlaw to release a new pre/pro. When my amp crapped the bed a week and a half ago I went ahead and pulled the trigger on the Denon 3808 to serve as a temporary solution until my amp came back. After working with the Denon for over a week now, I can honestly say this is one fine peice of equipment. So for right now, I can't wait for my 7700 to come back to see how the 3808 serves as a pre/pro. I had all intentions of taking the 3808 back before the end of January but after seeing what this receiver can do, may be keeping it until Outlaw releases the newer pre/pro's and then the 3808 will be moved to the upstairs rig.

You make a good point. However, I would hardly call HDMI as "new" anymore. Perhaps v 1.3 is "newer", but the hardware is out there, as is the "technology" of the newer audio formats.

Manufacturers design their products well in advance, and I understand that. But the "other" mfgrs also have their new products carrying the newer technologies, and they are available now.

Outlaw needs to keep up, period. I am not mad, just starting to lose patience.

HDMI v1.3 is new - the standard was first published less than 18 months ago (which is "just the other day" in these terms) and the chips that are based on it are still evolving. Heck, there were still no players on the market that would output bitstreams of TrueHD and DTS-HD MA just a couple months ago. Just six or eight weeks ago, they were dealing with delays (which may or may not be resolved yet) created by one of the only two DSP chip makers building hardware to decode the new formats at a receiver/processor level. It's a tough time for the whole industry, which is why I (and some others) have been leery of anything being rushed out right now. I agree that it's in Outlaw's best interests to keep pushing forward as fast as they safely can, but the damage inflicted by arriving too soon and having show-stopping bugs or missing features is going to be worse for them than losing sales in the short term.

Add to that the recent history with the 970's notorious "no audio" issues, and they're probably very gun shy about releasing anything that may be even remotely buggy.

Yup, and when it comes down to it, none of the new features are really necessary to create a very good home theater experience.

And other than Onkyo/Integra, what other manufacturer has a prepro out that supports HDMI 1.3 and all the lossless multichannel formats and costs less than $2000?

Given that there's only one other prepro that does all that near Outlaw's price range, I think that the Outlaws have plenty of breathing room for the moment to come out with a high quality product that has all the bells and whistles that one would expect from a modern day product.

Personally, I'd rather see them deliver a product that was a few months later than expected but was less quirky than the 990 while still delivering the sweet sound quality.

Those are good points. Another thing for me -- as much as I'm itching to jump to the next codecs -- how many DVDs are out there that are encoded with either Dolby True HD or DTS HD MA?

A couple weeks ago, I was thumbing through the HD DVD and Blu Ray bins at Circuit City looking for both, and it seemed like there weren't a whole heck of a lot. That's really compounded if you like lesser known / quirky movies.

IMHO, until the number of releases catch up a bit, a jump to the new formats would amount to an occassional treat scattered among far more numerous viewings of standard def' DVDs and/or those encoded with the lossy formats. Which means for a lot of movie watching, the only Hi-Def aspect you'd be able to enjoy is near-HD quality upconversion through the player.

I don't know how many TrueHD and DTS-HD tracks are out there in relation to the total catalog of HD titles, but it is certainly spotty. Through a couple sales and a good number of free disc deals, I've got close to thirty discs in hand or due to arrive eventually - of those I think I have five with TrueHD tracks (one of which is Digital Video Essentials on HD-DVD), a couple with multichannel PCM, and none with DTS-HD. Maybe that's one reason that I'm not terribly stressed about HDMI v1.3 support in my processor...

So setting aside the setup disc, only 20% have the lossless formats. Good reason not to be stressed

BTW, there was a discussion on a related thread about the benefits of decoding the new codecs in the pre pro vs. the player. I've got to wonder, would the audible benefits be that discernable? Personally, I think subtleties between equipment is much easier to discern with simple, two channel stereo compared to surround sound. First, there's so much going on across so many speakers. And second, it's mostly spatial clues or sound effects. So you've got to wonder if we're talking really diminishing returns between the two.

Now, I recall gonk that you said only by using the digital streams via HDMI 1.3 to an outboard pre/pro would you be able to take full advantage of Dolby PLIIx, etc. But if that's the case, I envision you could configure an existing Outlaw system by getting a DVD player that has multi-channel out for True HD (available now) and DTS HD MA (available soon?), run them to your 7.1 inputs, and for everything else, just run digital out to a spare input on the 970 or 990 and toggle between the two based on what surround format you wanted.

Or am I missing something here?

For TrueHD, I would expect it to be difficult to tell, as my understanding is that it is very similar to DVD-Audio's MLP (making the decoding process relatively straightforward and thus harder to get wrong). In that case, it would take a real mistake in hardware or software development to produce an audible difference. DTS-HD Master Audio is apparently a real processing bear, though, which is why the only Master Audio decoding available today is in receivers or processors.

The biggest thing that I see as a potential benefit for HDMI v1.x versus the 990's 7.1 Direct input is PLIIx. There is still very little 6.1/7.1 content available on HD software, but a fair number of 7.1 home theater setups. With nearly all HD-DVD and Blu-ray players offering only 5.1 analog outputs (when they have multichannel analog output at all), the only way to use the rear surrounds is to split the signals from the surrounds of a player's 5.1 output. That's not exactly earth-shatteringly important, but it is a consideration. Also, the 990 remains very unusual in its ability to apply bass management, time delay, and channel trim to a multichannel analog input, so there are a lot of other home theater setups that are relying on the player for those capabilities.

Gonk, here's how next gen codecs break down by the "big" studios in HD/BD:

Universal: Mostly 24-bit Dolby Plus, a few Dolby TrueHD. Seem to going with TrueHD more and more.
Fox: Every release has DTS-HD Master Audio. Most are 24-bit.
Warner: Mostly 16-bit Dolby Plus, a few Dolby TrueHD.
Lionsgate: Some multi-channel LPCM, some DTS-HD.
Disney: Pretty sure all releases have multi-channel LPCM.
Weinstein: Mostly 24-bit Dolby Plus, a few Dolby TrueHD.
Paramount: Mostly 24-bit Dolby Plus, a few Dolby TrueHD.
Sony: All releases have multi-channel LPCM, some Dolby TrueHD, seem to be moving towards TrueHD.

I just bought my first HD component. The Samsung HL-T6187S. It only supports HDMI 1.1, but I'm not worried about it. I know 1.3 can support a larger color spectrum or color bit, but I'm not concerned about it at all because I probably wont notice the difference.

I'm not concerned with the TV having 1.3 audio support because I'll be using a Pre/Pro configuration for audio and not the TV. I'll be waiting on Outlaw's next pre processor with hopes that it has several HDMI 1.3 ports. In the future, I'll be making sure all the components have HDMI 1.3.

Right now it doesn't make much of a difference to me because there's still little content. I rent most of my movies from BlockBuster and I have only seen a handful of Blue Ray movies. Next year I'm sure I'll rent movies from NetFlix and I plan to buy the Samsung BD-UP5000 with it's 7.1 analog outputs. I think I'll be using that with the DVI option on the 990 and be quite content.

I use to feel the need to rush into HDMI 3.1, but not anymore. I still have a rockin system without it.

HDMI v1.3 does support more video bandwidth and greater color depth, but there are currently no sources that offer that greater color depth - so it's real hard to get upset about not having it in a display...

I've also read that it's unlikely noticeable by the human eye. I'm going from a 7 or 8 year old Sony CRT flatscreen to a high def screen.. I'll be happy,.

I just recently purchased a 990 so I have been following most of the posts for it. I am new to the pre/pro set up and would not know a DAC from a duck. It seems the more I read about the HDMI 1.3 the more I get confused. Especially because of the info from the following link: http://www.dts.com/dts-hd/dtshd-master-audio-with-existing-receiver.php
This shows a Blue ray or HD player being connected to a non HDMI receiver via analog cables. So why the concern about not having a 1.3 connection? What am I missing here? Patience please, Santa reads all these posts. LOL

People want that one cable connection to do it all.

Also, if you buy a good pre-pro, typically the DACs in the pre-pro will be a bit better than the DACs in the source (Blu-Ray or HD-DVD player) and you can only use the DACs in the prepro if it has an HDMI 1.3 compliant input.

Lastly, I do think that multichannel analog just takes too many cables and it's better to keep the signal digital until you get to the pre-pro, but that's just my opinion.

At the end of the day, HDMI 1.3 is all about lossless multichannel, and whether you think it's important or not relies heavily on how good you think audio is currently in DVDs or the hi-def sources.

Personally, I think that Dolby Digital and DTS are already pretty darn good and don't really see the lossless multichannel offerings adding much to that.

As BloggingITGuy points out, HDMI appeals to many people because it can replace six or eight analog audio cables and because you can have more than one such device without extra switching (almost no receivers or processors offer more than one multichannel analog input). Which version of HDMI is a different matter. IF you haven't already, check out the HDMI FAQ in my sig - it digs into the myriad HDMI version issues.

DTS-HD is a particular mess, in my opinion. First, there are multiple flavors of DTS-HD, with DTS-HD Master Audio being the top of the heap (a lossless compression scheme, functionally equivalent to TrueHD from Dolby and the old MLP used on DVD-Audio discs). Unfortunately, there are no source components currently available that will decode DTS-HD MA internally, and very few that will decode the lower forms of DTS-HD. As such, the only way to listen to DTS-HD MA tracks is with an HDMI v1.3 source that can output a bitstream of that signal (which does not include all HDMI v1.3 sources, as early HDMI v1.3 transmitter chips can't do it - the PS3 falls into this category) and an HDMI v1.3 processor that can decode DTS-HD MA.

Well, I got my hands on the Onkyo Pro 885 (virtually the same as the Integra). Now my veteran Outlaw 950 can go upstairs into my music only system to do 5.1 analog duty with my SACD player,

Anyway, the Onkyo and Integra are both still nearly impossible to obtain, so if Outlaw can get a comparable priced/performing unit out by early spring, I think they will be in good shape..

Gonk, the PS3 chip's bitstream output capability (or lack therefo) has never been officially confirmed. It was an early version of the chip made specially for Sony, and the mfr has not stated definiteively whether it can bitstream or not. Evidence points to no, but there's still a faint hope it can.

I will say, the PS3 is now a really stunningly good CD player and SACD player. They have added a 3rd bit shaping algorithm to its upsampling and it makes stuff sound just amazing.

One point where Outlaw could outshine the Onkyo/Integra IMO is the internal video processing. They chose to not allow it vary by input, which makes it somewhat unusable in a high end system I feel. I have 3 video sources in my system, A dish Network SD tuner/DVR, the PS3 and an Oppo 971. The Reon is unneeded on the latter two, but even still I may have left it engaged most of the time to clean up the crappy satellite picture, but if I set it to scale for my TV (720p), it stretches a 4:3 image to 16:9, and my TV's HDMI input does not have "squish" aspect ratio controls, only zoom and crop. So I am left with only being able to use it as a deinterlacer.

Also they hobbled the options on the thing until customer clamor got a firmware upgrade. But it still only has one set of settings and is an all or nothing deal..

So if Outlaw gave a good solid set of controls over the Reon or one of the competing chips and let you configure it per input, they would probably be in good shape to compete with the Onkyo eevn at a similar price.

BB

They still have the Reon crippled on the 885? I thought they were trying to fix that via firmware updates. I would agree that as popular as the Reon chip is, it is only useful in a surround processor if there are some decent user controls offered - and some of the other quite respectable solutions could prove more useful simply by providing proper user control over them.

Not crippled, control is available for the adjustments, but it is global. I cannot have it process my Dish NTSC input, but leave my Oppo and PS3 video alone, without going into setup each time.

Since I generally don't even watch Dish, it is my wife who would have to do this, and our TV does an adequate enough job of cleaning up the picture so it isn't worth it.

BB

What does the Reon chip do when an incoming signal (such as from the OPPO or the PS3) is at the same resolution as it is configured to output? In other words, if the 885 is configured to output 1080i and the OPPO is inputting 1080i, is the signal effectively "passed through" or does some additional processing take place?

It applies processing according to the settings in place, sharpness, brightness, etc. These are applied to all signals, and any incoming signal which is at a different aspect ratio than the selected output resolution is also scaled (and deinterlaced if needed) before output. I have the processing set to off, which is the only way for signals to pass through unaltered. It also converts everything between analog video and HDMI. It does not convert protected HDMI streams to analog output other than at 480i though.

BB

With that setup, I could see definite problems for a source that didn't use a standard resolution (an HTPC at 1366x768, for example), but I'm curious what might be happening for the typical 720p, 1080i, and 1080p resolutions when input via HDMI and then sent back out the same way. Based on what you mention, if you want a 16:9 1080i output and you get a 16:9 1080i input, the image adjustment settings (sharpness, brightness, contrast, and such) are applied. If those are all set to zero, I'm wondering what else it would do, if anything.

Has anyone noticed the NAD T175? It does have HDMI 1.3 and also Audessey MultEQ. In my book Audessey counts for much more than any other feature. I am still waiting for NAD to post the manual on the T175, and have even asked them about it. I am looking to replace my 990 because in stereo or stereo direct it veils the sound slightly. I did a comparision using the 7125 amp and another stereo preamp against the 990 in stereo and the 990 just did not hold up. Hands down the 990 had a veiled sound to it. The T175 is already in dealer hands, as i saw one this week, unfortunately it was not yet set-up. I wonder if Outlaw will be incorporating Audessey into their new pre/pro?

Tim

What is Audessey?

Audyssey is a third-party room equalization technology. Specifically, the MultEQ version of it uses measurements taken at more than one location in the room.

You need firmware version 1.04 or higher to fix the Reon issue. Although the firmware update enables Reon adjustments, it can only be done thru the menu system on the pre/pro and not via the on-screen menu system (cumbersome when finetuning video...would like to use the remote).

I have to admit, I was also very impressed with the Audyssey in the Onkyo 885... just setup the mic and let the system do the work. If you don't like the results... run it again. A whole lot easier than a Radio Shack meter and tape measure. I too hope the Outlaw's opt to incorporate this technology in their new pre/pro.

electronics change so fast... that developers can't really keep up. By the time all receivers and pre amps finally go HDMI, the next generation will already be out. And if history is any lesson.. most likely it will not be compatible with HDMI.. so in the next yr or two look for a whole next connector to start hitting the market.

DVI was pretty short lived and was all but obsolete when HDMI began showing up.. expect the same with the next generation of digital audio/video connectors.

Does Outlaw showcase new products at CES?

Outlaw Audio will be having full HDMI 1.3 support in the year 2008!

No, Outlaw does not have any sort of booth or display at CES. I don't doubt that there will be an Outlaw or two scoping things out at CES, but there will be no official Outlaw presence. They focus on the HE Show in May. If I remember correctly, they feel that HE Show is geared more to the average consumer and less to the press and business side than CES is, so it is a better opportunity for them to connect with their target audience. Sort of like why they don't do anything at CEDIA (custom installers are very much not their target market).

Outlaw is probably smart for not being an official exhibitor at CES... I used to work for a mid-size CAD Software company. The owner had about 75 employees. We exhibited at COMDEX in Atlanta. He showed me the final COMDEX bill for 4 days in a 12' x 12' booth was $48,000 in 1994. Plants and 115 Vac power was extra!! 2008 CES probably 80-100K for a small booth, If I took a guess.......

vince

Wow. I had no idea that booth space was that pricey.

I recall most of the high-end oriented print publications (i.e., Stereophile, The Absolute Sound, etc.) scope out CES for hot, new products. This can help put a bit of a fire in the bellies of potential consumers and build some momentum for a new product launch. If the new pre/pros had been ready in time for the show next week, maybe, just maybe, a showing would have paid some dividends early on that would make up for the booth fees (?)

I lived in Vegas 5 years...I went to CES 4 of them..Nice show..I had to generate fake business cards to get in...at each booth they have the sales guys out front and then the Japanese engineer in the back that designed the unit....Average woman representing Panasonic is like a "9" on a 1-10 scale...nice view....

I'm another happy 990 owner, been reading about integra 9.8 pre-pro back end heats up to 185F-not good for long-term life, waiting for outlaw to make the 990HD, waiting for 1 more generation of blu-ray player..like 2.0 ( 1GB RAM) that loads all disks in 15 secs......will not wait 1 min:40 secs for a java disk to load....waiting for pioneer to fix their buzzing issue on their plasmas and for the price to come down into 3.5K range for a 6010

hopefully ces will shed light on some of this...

just venting.......
sorry Vince

The format war and HDMI's version stew are good reasons to vent a bit, Vince.
Cost aside, I think this is part of the reason that Outlaw prefers HE show. Anybody can get into HE, but you have to be "in the business" (or at least look that way) to get into CES.

The October news had mentioned the new pre-pro being delayed due to waiting on chipsets from Cirrus. Here is some more news about the chip-maker's delay:

http://www.prnewswire.com/cgi-bin/stories.pl?ACCT=104&STORY=/www/story/01-04-2008/0004730777&EDATE=

Such movie nutcases! Music is what matters and moves the soul, not movies.

I am also looking forward to Blu-Ray and HDMI 1.3 but for the HD audio, not just the video. I already have HD and my Denon upconverts to HD 1080P with such grace.

The industry is geared to HT and movies yet never forget, music is what matters.

Do not forget your roots/passions!

For two channel music I am pleased to still be using my 1070 as a preamp over a 3k dedicated AV unit. (the DVD multi-channel Analog bypass with analog bass mgmt.)

Should I be able to pull my next attempt off, I should be happy. I will try and get out my old tube preamp (should it still work after 9 years)and use it with an Audio/video switch box.


I will use the tube preamp for two channel and wait patiently for the next Outlaw Preamp.

Is that the right article, Sanjay? Looks like you may have pasted the wrong link in there...

I wasn't able to find any mention via Google of a delay of production of that chip other than the Outlaw announcement.

Wups, my mistake. Hopefully this link should work:

http://www.avrevforum.com/showthread.php?t=1377

Ah-ha. And, of course, ouch.
Talk about a truly miserable position for electronics manufacturers to be in. This paragraph says it all. You have an untold number of manufacturers who probably started developing new hardware platforms back in 2006 (or before) based on using the 49700 as the digital heart, and if the December date gets missed by even a few weeks those companies are facing a delay of almost a full year. Do you scrap a significant portion of both hardware and software design and try to use TI hardware instead? Do you tough it out and wait for Cirrus to deliver, all the while watching potential business go to competitors who happened to decide to use TI instead? And if you do wait, do you grab the chips from Cirrus and dump hardware straight into sales channels or do you spend the time (likely measured in months) to make sure all the million and one interconnected pieces of hardware and software are working properly together? That's a real mess...

Indeed, some had to release their new pre-pros as is. Off the top of my head I can think of nine manufacturers that have HDMI-based pre-pros without decoders for the new audio codecs: Anthem, AudioLab, Cary, Denon Professional, Halcro, Lexicon, Mark Levinson, NAD and Rotel.

You can add Integra Research to the list. They released their RDC-7.1 TWO years ago with HDMI.

Avoid the Integra and most other AV units as theyarde only good for surroung and suck for music. I will sell my Anthem AVM-30, any one want it?

I'm gonna have to take issue with the word suck. The 9.8/885 does a decent job on 2 channel in the digital arena. Will a good 2 ch dedicatd pre do better? Sure. But it sure does not suck.

BB

I have heard the Integra 9.8 does a great job as a pre-pro. People over at avsforum.com sure seem to like it, and I am still contemplating getting one.

It would be nice to have an Outlaw pre-pro for its quality/price, but I sure want the HDMI ASAP!

I enjoy both and my Outlaw is not my preamp of choice for music. However, the moment Outlaw offers an HDMI 1.3 pre/pro, my credit card and I will be in line.

Small tidbits in this article that may lend some insight onto what is coming via Outlaw, see the Sherwood section:
http://www.twice.com/article/CA6517476.html?industryid=23100

alphanstein: That is a very interesting bit of info. Do we know if Outlaw is staying with their current OEM? It is amazing what is now being included in receivers processors. Not all that long ago the audio processor/video switcher and a stand alone video processor would set you back thousands of bucks each. Now they are being rolled together for $1500 to $2000; all I can say is "Wow". I'm anxious to find out what features Outlaw will include in their new flagship processor.

It looks like the relevent portion is this:
I've actually been occasionally checking in on an AVS thread about these two receivers for a while, and there is some question there about the delivery date for these (particularly the 972) - the question there is whether the arrival time frame is March or May.

As for whether Outlaw will be partnering with Etronics again, we don't know anything definitive. There was some talk in another thread suggesting that a Sherwood rep at CES had hinted as much, but I don't know that it was anything I'd put money on.

If Outlaw is working with Etronics I wonder if the Sherwood and Outlaw designs would be completed in parallel. My hope is they are moving along at the same time and a new "990" will be available early this summer.

I think the used gear market has already responded to the release of a new Outlaw pre/pro and Outlaw's recent price drop on the 990. 990s are selling for at least a couple of hundred less on eBay than they did a few months ago. Outlaw's offer to knock off $200 of the price of the new pre/pro will take up some of the slack in 990's resale value.

A price drop always yields a corresponding drop in resale value - the same happened with the 950 each time it received a price decrease. The consumer clamor for HDMI v1.3 product is only going to make that trend more apparent this time around...

Does anyone know if the Cirrus 49700 (new rev) chip is out of sampling and in production?

No idea...

Interesting thread because over in the AVS forum no one is talking about the QUALITY of audio when using HDMI ver 1.3a as the input source. All I'm reading over there is that if a receiver/pre-amp has hdmi ver 1.4a then you are good to go!

Hummmmm....I'll cross post over there and see what reaction I get.

Marcus

I'd still be quite interested to know if the new Outlaw pre/pro's will include an Audyssey or similar room equalization system. I understand that both Emotiva pre/pro's will include some type of multEQ.

According to posts in the AVS forum, S-N showed a prototype at CES which they claimed would have a chip version of the Trinnov processing system. They claim the processing is superior to Audessey (I know they all say that before the rubber hits the road). People who have seen it say it is awesome. Do a search for Trinnov on AVS. See also

http://www.trinnov.com/

If this is true and comes to pass in Outlaw clothing it will be spectacular. In any case it's what I'm waiting for. In the meanwhile I am using analog inputs for HD sound and a Radiient HDMI switcher. Driven by a Harmony remote it all works great.

Found a pic of Sheerwoods new flagship. I have not been able to find anything on a preamp. Maybe Outlaw will get rid of those pesky binding posts and ad XLRs Looks like it has built in Wifi too

http://www.sherwood-mba.de/images/R972%20rear%20panel.jpg

http://www.sherwood-mba.de/popup_image.php/pID/46?osCsid=3534013da8e591d7501ada3aaa5d01ff

Speakers 6 ohm minimum and no phono - two dealbreakers for me.

One HDMI out would be a deal breaker for me.

Would be nice if there was more than one hdmi out, so that three or four inputs could be independently assigned (should one wish to do so). This would constitute a 4x2 or 3 x 2 matrix.

I doubt we'll see it. GEFEN makes a 4 x 2 whose cost is prohibitive. The one I tried (can't remember the name) didn't work. returned it and got a replacement. That one didn't either. So I doubt we'll see output assignment switching....oh darn.

There are some products out there with multiple HDMI outputs that have a wrinkle: only one is active at a time. This avoids the need for an HDMI splitter (something that is not simple to do because of HDCP handshake issues), but it requires you to manually toggle between the two when changing from front projector to a smaller display (plasma, LCD, front projector, etc).