Been a while since I have visited but have been enjoying the 990/770 combo for a while in my HT system. With the addition of Blu-ray (Sony BDP-S1 and Playstation 3) and HD-DVD players (Toshiba HD-A2) to the mix, the temptation of DTS-HD Master Audio and TrueHD creeps in every now and then. Have browsed a bit here and there and note that the only pre-pros I have found that will currently do those formats are the new Onkyo Pro unit and the mirror image Integra 9.8. I have been tempted, but frankly both are almost nowhere to be found right now anyway. Onkyo and a few others have receivers with that capability and I suppose I could use the pre-outs on such a receiver to feed into the Outlaw amp, eliminating the 990 as the pre-pro. I see that the Outlaws probably have a new pre-pro in the pipeline, but it is probably just in the beginning stages at his point. My options appear to be 1) hope the Outlaws are ahead of the anticipated schedule with a new pre-pro, 2) keep looking for an available Onkyo Pro or Integra 9.8, 3) try one of the new SSRs and do the pre-out route, or 4) run in place until the Outlaw unit is available. I am leaning towards 4) (or hopefully 1) because I remember the difference the 950 (and then, the 990) made to my system when I replaced the Denon AVR-5800 (a formidable receiver at the time) with those units, and I cannot imagine a receiver's pre-pro section or even one of the new dedicated Integra/Onkyo pre-pros outstripping my 990 in terms of overall sonic performance. However, I am a bit prejudiced about my Outlaw gear and was wondering if any of you had entertained similar thoughts? Thanks!

Mike

I'm sitting tight with 4) myself. I'm quite happy with the 990. Some time next year I'll start thinking about what I want to do about pursuing HDMI v1.x support.

mgdurand wrote:

However, I am a bit prejudiced about my Outlaw gear and was wondering if any of you had entertained similar thoughts?

I, too, am [at least] pleased with my outlaw equipment. Actually, more than just pleased. As you can see below I have two complete systems. So I guess that provides at least one positive answer.

Though I have two 990s I am still very interested in the features that the new pre/pro will have....not that I am at present convinced that HMDI 1.3 will be ncessary. But, then, maybe the new audio features will be significant. It sounds so good now, but......who knows.

One system [strictly audio) will not change. The other (with big TV) might have a swap of 990 for new one.

HDMI inputs will be very important for many reasons. Passing along the higher data rate (video and audio) makes it so.

I am currently happy with my 990. However, I think expctations is for Outlaw to release a "1000" early next year that mimics the 990, but adds;

Video switching with a minimum of 4 HDMI (v1.3) inputs, and decoding for all of the current audio formats.

Another small but nice feature would be to add more characters that can be used to label video and audio inputs.

Here is something else to consider. Not all HD DVD and Blu-ray movies have those high definition audio formats. In fact, recently I looked at a few in Best Buy and none that I looked at had DTS-HD or TrueHD. They only had Dolby Digital Plus. So investing in the equipment to take advantage of those new audio formats may be somewhat of a waste of money.

What about waiting for a Blu-ray or HD DVD player that decodes all of the new formats, and then hooking it up to the 990/970 or other preamp/processor via the 5.1 or 7.1 multichannel analog inputs?...That is what I plan on doing...if I understand correctly, lossless audio decoded in the player should sound no different then if it were decoded in the processor or receiver...I understand that I would need a separate cable from my player to my display, but this is not a big deal to me...Also, the newer players that will decode all of these formats will have some form of bass management(although not as advanced as the 990 or 970).

I have thought about that, matty. Currently have the Toshiba HD-A2, so no analog outs for HD-DVD. Do have the Sony BDP-S1 for Blu-ray. Am waiting for the Samsung combo player to come to fruition (supposedly available in December) to examine that as a possibility. Have heard some negatives about the new LG-200 and decided to wait for the Sammy.

Well, I never believe in coincidences, and when events occur that coincide with particular happenings in my life to a degree that I cannot ignore the synergy, I act ... even if out of nothing more than sheer curiosity. While perusing the internet this morning, I came across an ad that was advertising the Onkyo TX-SR805 AVR at a price of $629.00. They also had the new Sony BDP-S500 Blu-ray player for $629.00. Karma? Kismet? Curiosity (as noted in my initial post)? Whatever the explanation (or some may say "excuse") I went out today and purchased both for a test-drive. Will receive some 1.3a certified HDMI cables later this week and will try and find time to set the thing up next weekend by bypassing my 990 and using the Onkyo as a pre-pro through the pre-outs on the unit to the inputs of the 770. Would try it sooner but that darn "work" thing keeps getting in the way of the important things in my life! If anyone is interested I will try and get back here to post what will be my admittedly subjective impressions of the experiment once I have had a sufficient chance to evaluate them. I figure that even if I am not impressed with the Onkyo when compared to the 990 in my main set-up, I can either return the Onkyo (will probably keep the Sony - I have run that through the 990 and it is an impressive unit) or relegate the Onkyo to bedroom duty with my mini-HT system I have in there.

Later!

Mike

I would be interested in your review of the TX-SR805. I just got the Toshiba HD-A2 and now have an "excuse" to get a new piece of equipment. Was looking at the Onkyo to use as a pre-pro with my Outlaw amp.

Matty1137, I'd take your approach a step further: any new digital-disc player I'd be interested in must play EVERYTHING - CDs, DVDs, multichannel SACDs, DVDs of all types including DVD-A, and all the new HD formats now available (I'm tempted to add "or envisioned"). Plus homebrewed CDs of all types, including photos of course. And for $500, tops. I doubt if I am alone in this view.

Yeah, you are certainly not alone in wanting this. I was thinking about this the other day, actually - it's only been recently that I was able to reduce the number of disc players in my system to two (one of which was there as a DVD recorder, mostly time-shifting using a built-in hard drive and rarely using the DVD drive). Since then, I've already jumped back up to four players (granted, one is there to assist in occasional beta testing for OPPO, but still...). If I do get a Blu-ray player, it would rise to five players. The idea of paring things back to a single "jack of all trades" player is appealing.

Just saw a spot for that new Samsung Dual Player at the local Best Buy. None on the shelf though. $799.00

Nice price - hadn't expected to see them at all before mid-December, and if they are going to be $800 at retail, one would think that some online dealers will have them for closer to $700.

As noted above, have been keeping my eye out for the Sammy myself. Have not seen any on any of the web sites (including the Best Buy site - they still have only the 2 LG units shown, and they are no-gos for me). Have three DVD players right now - the Sony BDP-S500, a vanilla standard DVD recorder and (coming Wednesday) a Toshiba HD-A35 HD-DVD unit. Having only two would be nice. Hope the Onkyo 805 works out as a pre-pro - won't know that until at least this weekend. It has 3 1.3 HDMI inputs, which works for me right now.

OK. I cheated a bit. Got in the Tosh A-35 and swapped out the Sony BDP-S500 for a Panasonic DMPBD30K. Have played some and the following are my initial impressions. Remember, no measurements, objective criteria, etc. - this is my and my family's completely subjective impressions of the Onkyo TX-SR-805 used as a pre-pro with my Outlaw 770 for HT (We do not use the system for pure audio much at all).

Both players send Dolby TrueHD and DTS-HD-MA through HDMI bitstream. Nothing in DTS-HD MA yet to check out with the Tosh (played Batman Begins for Dolby TrueHD), but played Eragon this afternoon on the Panny. Dolby TrueHD and DTS-HD MA confirmed on the front panel of the Onkyo during playback.

The Onkyo TX-SR-805 is connected to my Outlaw 770 via pre-outs. The Panny, the Tosh and my Cox HD cable box are connected via 1.3a HDMI cables through the Onkyo and another 1.3 HDMI to the Sony KDS-R60XBR1 display (1080i input/1080p display).

Used the Audyssey setup for calibration. Worked like a charm. Had to up the center output a few notches to accommodate wife with trouble hearing center channel (not b/c of the Onkyo - same with the 990 due to some hearing issues - nothing major - she is cute as hell so hearing issue not a deal breaker).

No lip-sync issues with either disk. Wife is my litmus test for my HT audio comparisons. She confirmed my initial subjective impressions. The soundstage is solid- the sound is "crisper" to our ears - no harshness in the high or mids - very clean, and the voices through the center channel are especially clean and understandable. Bass is deep and tight. Separation is wonderful as well.

The startup time on the Panny is extremely quick - not as fast as standard DVD but light years ahead of the Tosh and my previous Sony BD players.

Picture quality is as perfect as I have seen on my display. I do not let the Onkyo do any processing from any source. The cable looks like - well ... cable on standard sources. On the HD channels, the picture is stellar.

So far, I am both pleased and surprised by the Onkyo's performance in my setup. I was frankly prepared not to like it. The only reason I went out and bought the Onkyo is that I was able to pick it up for a song and a dance at Circuit City (yes, Circuit City) for $629.00 during their incredible 4 hour sale last Sunday that I happened to stumble upon by accident. My 990 has been a terrific part of my system. It is still a terrific unit and a great buy! However, if nothing else changes, the Onkyo has a home here.

It does run HOT - even with the amps not being actively utilized. However, it occupies the top shelf of one of my equipment racks and ventilation in not a problem. It is not so hot that it bothers me, just hot compared to the 990 after running for a while.

Hope this is at least mildly interesting to some as I know it is not a detailed report on spec performance, measured performance, etc.

In sum - so far - I like it a lot!

Mike

Thanks for the report! Even though I'll remain without HDMI v1.x inputs on my processor for the time being, I may still jump on a BD30 before the year is out.

Thanks for the report Mike. The fact that the TX-SR-805 runs hot may be a deal breaker if I was to replace the 990. I have the 990 in pretty tight quarters in my rack.

I do have a question. While flipping through channels on your HD cable box does the audio start decoding right away or is there a moment where there is a picture but no sound? I know this can be a slight annoyance with even very expensive pre/pros and receivers.

OK, one more question for anyone. How much are we missing if we don’t have the equipment to take advantage of Dolby TrueHD?

Hi, Daryl. Yes, it does have a short delay when going through channels. Not enough to bother me, but it is noticeable on my setup.

It does run hot, but I would not classify it as dangerously so. I think there is a recommended clearance for the receiver on the top and sides. I can check that if you'd like tonight.

If you could get the recomended clearance. Does it have a 12 volt trigger to turn on the amp?

Interesting question - mgdurand and I were just discussing that via PM the other day. The 805 does not have a 12v trigger for the main zone. Instead it has a switched 120v outlet, which is not as convenient as a 12v trigger but can be used with some power conditioners to switch multiple outlets.

Here is the information from the manual regarding the recommended clearance:

"18. If you install the apparatus in a built-in installation, such as a bookcase or rack, ensure that there is adequate ventilation. Leave 20 cm (8") of free space at the top and sides and 10 cm (4") at the rear. The rear edge of the shelf or board above the apparatus shall be set 10 cm (4") away from the rear panel or wall, creating a flue-like gap for warm air to escape."

The 12v trigger issue has been a pain. I assume that Onkyo figured that all would use the receiver's amps for the mains and a separate amp for the 2nd zone. This has been a rather perplexing problem and tried numerous solutions. Turning on the 2nd zone and trying to get the Outlaw triggered by the Onkyo that way was simply not desireable. It was late, but appeared that my rear surrounds were not being fed with that setup as when I did a test tone I did not get a tone from the rear surrounds. My late night reading of the manual appeared to me to indicate that with that arrangement I could use 7.1 for the main system. Possibly, they intended to have 7.1 with the receiver amps and not through the pre-outs. Kind of a bummer, but I have a spare 950 lying around and it triggers the 770 very well (obviously). Kind of a high tech trigger device but a lot less hassle than my alternatives (also, no additional cash outlay). Gonk put me onto a potential solution involving a Belkin PF60, but the discount place was out of stock, and this works for me. I envision using this only until Outlaw comes out with their new pre-pro with HDMI 1.3s and TrueHD and DTS-HD MA abilities next year (assuming that happens). This is a good interim solution for me and allows me to listen to the new formats with an excellent unit acting as a pre-pro through a much better amp than comes with the receiver (I have not used the receiver's amps but cannot imagine them comparing to the 770).

Hope that helps!

Mike

One thing you might try is getting an inexpensive 12VDC power supply from Radio Shack and putting a 3.5MM mono plug on it then plug it into your switched 120VAC outlets on the reciever. That way whenever the receiver is turned on the transformer will send a 12VDC signal to the amp.

Thanks, butchgo. I kind of like that. Not being an electrical expert by any means I cannot picture the physical setup in my mind, but may take a look around to see what I can see.

It sure was nostalgic to see the old 950 hooked up again. Quite a nice little unit. I remember how excited I was when I first put it into my system with the 770.

Thanks!

Mike

It's a very good suggestion - I've seen it mentioned before and forgot about it, although now that I think about it I think it's even included in some of Outlaw's amp manuals. Here's the blurb from the Model 7500 manual:
I'd forgotten about this trick, but it's definitely an option in your case, mgdurand. It might be worth a trip to Radio Shack to see what you can find.

Some do not but some do. I do not know the exact number of HD and BR DVDs that will have them, but it is realistic to stay that most new movies will. They will take advantage of the newer technologies.

Those audio formats are in place. HDMI specs are in place.

Other AV makers are releasing gear with HDMI v1.3 and the extra audio codecs in place. I relaize these companies have more resources ($ and people) but I sure hope Outlaw gets going on this quick.

If you have a HD and a BR player, you would need 2 sets of 7.1 inputs. Thats a lot of connections!

Or get a player like Samsung's upcoming combo player - one set of 7.1 analog cables to support both formats.

The Onkyo 805 has all the audio codecs and 3 HDMI inputs for $629.00.

Onkyo has released several similiar AV receivers and with this kind of price, should sell a lot of these.

Purists (like us) will want a little more of "quality" in a product, and I am positive Outlaw will provide. Hopefully soon!

My guess is that with the recent drop in price of the 990, maybe Outlaw is trying to get rid of its inventory and th enew product will be out soon.

I picked up mine for that $629.00 price. I have to tell you, I am extremely surprised and pleased by it. I am not usig theamps and am using it only as a pre-pro for the new codecs and HDMI switching. Am keeping the Outlaw 770 in the chain for now, but sonically I cannot say it is inferior to the 990. Will be watching for the "new" 990 replacement, though!

Mike

I have to agree with Gonk, I think Samsung as well as LG really made a smart move when building a combo player. I think Samsung is going to sell quit a bit of the 5000's for the simple fact that it has 7.1 analogs and alot of 990 owners may be jumping all over this, not to mention only having to deal with one HDMI connection and having both HD formats in one single player.

I think keeping the 990 and getting the Samsung BD-UP5000 combo player will make better use of my money. Then I would have 1080p output, analog out for all the new formats and both HD DVD and Blu-ray. Now all we have to do is wait for the Samsung to become available.

I just read the review of the Samsung BD-UP5000 in Sound and Vision and am disappointed. The internal audio decoder failed miserably. The unit they reviewed was a pre-production unit so maybe the production unit won’t have these problems but for that kind of money these problems may steer me away.

The unit they reviewed had lip-sync issues when using the 7.1 analog audio outputs. They also couldn’t set the distance for each of the speakers. Can the 990 compensate for these issues when using the 7.1 analog inputs?

The 990 can take care of distance and channel trim settings via 7.1 analog input, as well as bass management (which is likely minimal if they don't have distance settings per channel), so that's not a big deal. As for the lip sync issue, I am pretty sure that the 7.1 Direct input allows AV sync - it's classified as a video input, and all of the other video inputs allow it. I'd have to go into the menu and double-check to be 100% certain, though, as I don't think I've ever used it for that input.

Thanks gonk. I can't imagine they would release a unit with lip sync problems but it is good to know that the 990 can take care of the distance settings and bass management. I’m going to keep the BD-UP5000 on my wish list.

Just to follow up - I have the den to myself for a bit this evening, and remembered this thread. I confirmed that the 990's AV sync adjustment is available with the 7.1 Direct input, so even if the UP5000's video processing is creating a sync problem the 990 can correct for it.