Then set the 2-ch sub offset for CDs in upsample.


This what is puzzling to me, I need the sub level increased in upsample mode, not decreased... doesn't the offset feature only cut the sub level in upsample mode, not increase it??

The more I think about this, are you saying that if I set multichannel to the proper level and leave the 2 channel offset to 0db the upsample sub level will not decrease when I go back to upsample from my Dolby Digital source?

Upsample isn't directly associated with any particular sub trim - it is just a processing mode. If you use it with a two-channel source (which subsequently rules out any matrix surround processing, as upsample can't be combined with processing modes like that), the two-channel sub offset will be in use only because you're in a stereo mode. If you use upsample with a Dolby Digital or DTS 5.1 source (which also rules out matrix surround processing modes that would produce 6.1 or 7.1 from these 5.1 sources), the two-channel sub offset isn't applied because you're not in a stereo mode.

If you have too little bass in two-channel mode after configuring the system to work properly in multichannel, then there may be some other settings that need checking. First, I'd make sure (just to cover all the bases) that the tone controls are zero'd out - or just turn "tone defeat" on to bypass tone controls - so that there's no funny business going on with bass and treble controls. Next, I'd look at the material being used to evaluate bass response: make sure the multichannel source using to calibrate isn't somehow weak in the bass area, and that the two-channel source being used subsequently isn't too hot in the low end. After those two, I'd take a second look at my bass management settings - if the sub seems too strong in music playback, you may want to dial the front channel crossover down some. I had to do this with my SVS 25-31PCi in our old house, as any crossover higher than 40Hz made the sub way too noticeable with music playback. You might also check sub phase to see if reversing the phase works better.

Bass is a very subjective thing and I also don't know what speakers you are running, so take this with a grain of salt. I just think that 80hz is too high of a crossover to set *all* your speakers.

If I set all my speakers at 80hz, based on my speaker mix and how I listen to my system, that would just send too much low frequency information to my two subwoofers for my taste.

Also, based on how the 990 "combines" the signals from various channels (in certain modes) to send to the subwoofer, I would notice drastically more bass in a mode like Stereo-7 than I would in other modes - even more so at 80hz. So all my speakers are crossed-over at 40hz (your mileage may vary).

Just my 2 cents' worth. I hope it helps.

[edit] I just noticed that gonk's post also mentioned turning down the cross-over setting as a possible solution. Sorry for being repetitive.

I appreciate everyones input, I have tried all your suggestions. I am not new to most of this and the source material I am using I am very familiar with. I guess the long and short answer is this is the way things are with the 990.

With your current normal settings, your 2-channel programs (like CDs in UPSAMPLE that you mentioned) sound good, but 5.1 programs (like audio DTS DVDs like you also mentioned) have too much sub by 6 or 7 dB. Is that correct?

Like Gonk says there are many, many possible combinations of modes that can be used with different sources and connections, but I tried to frame my answer using only the two that you mentioned. I do know that UPSAMPLE can be used with DD5.1, for example, and there are 2-channel synthesized modes for DD5.1 and DTS digital sources, but you are not using any of those. Clearly all the things that the others have mentioned here are also true, like crossover frequencies effecting the perceived bass levels, but so does the room and the subwoofer placement.

In my first email I asked you what two of your settings were, but you only gave me one answer, and now I am not sure which one your answer was for. When your sub level is good for a 2-channel mode like a CD in UPSAMPLE but is too loud for a 5.1 channel mode like a DD5.1 or DTS DVD:
1. What is your SUB level in the full speaker calibration setup menu?
2. What is your 2-channel sub offset?

You need to enter the setup from a surround mode to answer the first question and from a 2-channel mode to answer the second.

I believe the solution will be that you need to set the sub level in the full speaker calibration setup menu (the multichannel one) lower by the 6 or 7 dB you mentioned as being needed, so 5.1 channel programs are balanced. Then you will need to change the 2-channel sub offset so that 2-channel programs are back in balance. The multichannel calibration settings apply to both 5.1 and 2-channel modes, but the 2-channel offset only applies to 2-channel modes. So if you change the multichannel sub level to be 6 dB lower than you have it now, you would end up having to raise the 2-channel offset by 6 dB, in order to bring the 2-channel modes (like CDs in STEREO or UPSAMPLE) back up to the level where you have it now, which is where you like it.

Finally, what Gonk said in his first email is the way to go. Use either the test tones in the 990 or a calibration disk to first set all the 5.1 speaker levels, entering the setup from some surround mode. You can even use the 990's microphone and the AUTO calibration feature. This should make DVDs playing in a 5.1 mode like DD5.1/PLIIx/DTS reasonably well balanced. Then you can listen to a 2-channel mode (a 2-channel source like a CD, the tuner or phono playing in STEREO or UPSAMPLE) and set the 2-channel sub offset accordingly.

Actually, his problem appears to be too little sub with 5.1 content when the sub is calibrated to work for two-channel material. Having said that, though, your advise about experimenting with crossover points may still be of use to him.

To clarify, my issue is perfect amount of sub with 2 channel upsample and too much sub with 5.1 material. If I set up the sub level with the test tones or AVIA in Dolby Digital 5.1, then when I switch to 2 channel upsample with a redbook CD, I need to turn the sub level up 5 or 6 db.

Clearly, my mind isn't in gear today (which along with the three meetings I've had so far explains why I haven't gotten anything done yet). Disregard my previous post...

OK. So assuming then that do already have the 2-channel offset at the maximum (0 dB), your problem does sound very odd. I know, sympathy doesn't help much. :-(

Sorry, but just to eliminate any crazy obvious things:

You are using digital connections for both your CDs and DVDs, right? If you were using your DVD player and its decoders into the 990's 7.1 analog input, then all your DVD player settings come into play too. (For those of us playing DVD-A and SACD through 7.1 analog, the player's levels are all set flat when using the 990's bass management.)

There was a bug in the first release of the 990 firmware update if the sub calibration level was set at -15 dB, but I assume you are not there anyway, and you probably have the second release anyway. Just something to eliminate.

I have never heard of any DVD player that can manipulate channel levels before sending out the digital signal, but that would be only other place to look. I do remember some discussion around the saloon of some universal player doing something odd with a weak sub level in some mode. Maybe Gonk remembers that? That was still probably analog output though. Hmmm...

It is hard to imagine that crossover settings could have this kind of 6 dB problem. That is pretty extreme.

This could be a question for Outlaw support--like a blown IC somewhere? They are very good and helpful.