My first post for this forum - any help or comments would be appreciated...

The following lengthy post simply boils down to this: Outlaw 990/7125 vs Emotiva MMC/IPS vs... (Arcam AVR280 Receiver?)


My wife just approved me to spend about $2k on better electronics than my current Denon AVR 3803 (which will be relegated to support a 5.1 system in the family room).

Dedicated AV room bult as part of new house is 23' x 14' x 9', fully dark with stadium seating (two rows) with Severtson 120" screen and JM Labs Focal speakers for 7.1. At back of this room is a separate 8' x 14' x 8' equipment room where amps, DVD, projector, media etc all sit (using MX650 RF remote with IR repeaters).


Current equipment is as follows:
Oppo 981 DVD player
Panasonic PT-AE900U 720p projector
Denon AVR3803 Receiver (inherited)
Motorola HD/PVR cable box from Comcast
JM Labs Focal front speakers: Electra 926 (big floorstanding boxes)
JM Labs Focal center speaker: Electra CC900 on custom stand
JM Labs Focal subwoofer: Electra SW900
JM Labs Focal side speakers: Cobalt SR800S
JM Labs Focal rear speakers: Cobalt SR800S

I also have an ancient but good stereo system: Linn Sondek/Ittok turntable/arm, Naim CD3, Naim NAC108/NAP180/HICAP/NAPSC electronics and power supplies that used to play through little Epos ES11 speakers.


My needs are: great music (stereo or multi-channel) and good/great movie experience, as few gimmicks as possible.


Options:
The Outlaw 990/7125 is about $2000 (including shipping)
The Emotiva MMC/IPS is $2200 (free shipping)
The new Arcam 280 Receiver is in the same ballpark.

Which would suit my needs best? I am not sure if MMC is easily self-upgradeble for firmware (it is a new product so may need some tweaks) which may be a plus for the 990. The HDMI or DVI switching is a wash between the MMC and 990. My speakers are fairly efficient so slight difference in power is not a big concern. I have read every review and thread I could find on these products so far but I am still on the fence. I need to order within 5 days (did not expect my wife to approve this so soon, and she may change her mind...). This is the only electronics upgrade I will do for at least 3 years so I had better get it right.


Thanks to all in advance for you help/comments.

Since you have an (ancient but good - indeed!!) turntable and arm, one factor on the side of the 990 is its phono preamp. I don't know if the Emotiva or Arcam units have one. The 990's is moving magnet only, so if you have an MC pickup it's irrelevant. Whether the 990 is as good as your Naim/Nait equipment I can't tell you, but mine is better than the Adcom GTP500 it replaced.
Happy choosing.

I have the 7125 amp and am very happy with it.

However you must get a Da-Lite HighPower screen!!!

I have the Panny 900U and this screen is simply stunning.

Check out the discussions at AVS Forum:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=773065

(If you can accomodate a retro-reflective screen)

psyprof1 - good point on the line stage of the 990. That is getting harder to find.

Obviously, on this forum the majority of responses will favor outlaw. There is a guy on the klipsch forum who says emotiva is very good but gives the 990 a slight edge, particularly for 2 channel. He has tried both & is a straight shooter.

Another guy over there & here tested the 990/7125 against the arcam avr 3xx?. Same results, arcam very good, outlaw better.

Honestly, you are probably fine with any of your options. Personally I like my amps in a separate box only performing one function. It really is subjective & i'm very happy with my 990.

Like Arky says, the concensus around here will tend to favor Outlaw. Emotiva's MMC-1/IPS-1 should be a pretty respectable combo - the MMC-1's lineage (derived from a Sunfire design) is solid, and Emotiva's amps have been well reviewed. Both options should work well for you. If I had to pick one, I'd pick the 990 (which is not surprising, since I do have a 990). The 990/7125 is of course a bit less expensive and the 990 offers some extra features that I am very fond of (editable input names, a universal remote, addressible video inputs, addressible digital audio inputs) as well as some other capabilities (more robust bass management, for example). Other Emotiva users can be hard to find since Emotiva hasn't got a forum up and running yet, whereas the saloon here has been in operation for over six years.

Minor point of fact: what the 990 has that's getting harder to find is a phono stage. All the other analog audio inputs, that everybody has, are line stages. But thanks for the kind word, Arky.

Thanks so much for all your replies. I also left a similar thread on av123.com (current home of Emotiva threads) so any brand 'biases' will cancel out. Unfortunately the only response on my thread there is from someone who owns a 990 and is very happy with it... I notice the prolific and helpful Gonk at av123.com too - Hi Gonk.


Actually I found out that the Emotiva MMC also has a Moving Magnet phono input like the 990. However I have a very nice Audio Technica Moving Coil cartridge and added a high quality MC board to my Naim preamp - so I will be sticking with my $7k worth of Naim stereo electronics on the occasions when I spin vinyl (the wonderful things one can spend money on before one gets married!). I have a set of speaker cables coming out of the Naim power amp and just manually swap them at the speakers when I want the turntable working (painful I know - but the Linn/Naim combo sounds just so good to these British ears).

Thahm - thanks for the info on the Da-Lite screen. That was my other option with Severtson (Stewart Firehawk was out of my price range). Severtson is pretty good - they make the screens for IMAX and some Hollywood film rooms etc. Here are some comments (I dealt with Kirk Severtson in the folowing thread and they test with my 900U projector): http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=786473&highlight=severtson


As far as Outlaw vs Emotiva goes: in summary it seems I would be happy with both but it looks like the 990 will have better quality two channel output, plus other features which the MMC may not have such as editable input names, addressible video inputs, addressible digital audio inputs etc. I found out the MMC does have an RS232 port for field firmware upgrades like the 990.

I have decided against the Arcam. Between the Outlaw or Emotiva I am sure I will be happy and keep whatever one I order and not return it in the 30 day trial period. The question still lingers - which one might make me slightly happier... The research continues.

I saw your thread at AV123 but hadn't gotten around to it yet, then saw this one and chimed in here instead. MMC owners have been hard to find so far (possibly in part to the lack of an Emotiva forum).

Here's one other thing to keep in mind: the MMC-1 ships with a remote that is rather cool looking (sort of the "solid chunk o' metal" approach based on the pictures I've seen on their site), but it lacks any universal capability. I'm a firm believer in the benefits of a good universal remote - preferably something like a Harmony or Universal MX,although the 990's included remote at least offers some universal capability. You may end up getting a third-party universal remote either way, but the 990 at least gives you an option.

I am already using a Universal Remote MX650 (Omega) with an IR repeater in the equipment room, so I am happy with my remote control.

Sounds like you'll be all set, then. Let us know which you go with when you decide.

Food for thought:
If I didn't already have my 990 I would order separates from Outlaw & Emotiva to utilize their trial period for testing. In home with your own room acoustics & speakers is really the only way to know which sounds best in your environment.

I asked for opinions also & was glad to get them as they are reassuring. When I bought my 990 there wasn't another Emotiva type company I felt was comparable to Outlaw. My point is, what's $50-80 for return shipping in the greater scheme of things. Assuming Emotiva's trial/return policy is similar to Outlaw's.

This afternoon I had 3 long phone calls with Emotiva to get more information about the MMC and IPS and also just general company history etc. Really nice and helpful people (thanks Kathy, Lonnie and Mark if you read this) who were very professional and said nothing about Outlaw but gave me a lot of confidence in their own products.

Long story short I am getting the Emotiva (at least for free 30 day trial as Arky suggested) - they also currently offer a 40% discount on upgrading to any future pre/pro device (unlimited timeframe) which is nice for my next purchase in 3 years.

I will let you know how it goes, and thanks for all your help and suggestions. If anyone wants detailed reviews/pics etc I can try to do that.

Just out of curiosity, you mentioned that you called Emotiva, did you talk to anyone at Outlaw? I'm sure that the Emo folks are as nice and helpful as everyone says, but from a support standpoint, the one thing that would concern me is their lack of a forum such as this one where there is a commumity to answer questions such as you have asked here.

Question for anyone. I haven't taken the time to upgrade my firmware yet. Outlaw doesn't charge for the upgrade right? Couldn't this become a big deal as processing technology changes? I believe B&K, Sunfire & some others charge for this service & it wasn't cheap IIRC, could be wrong. Will Emotiva charge? My thinking could be flawed but practically everyone wants the latest processing available.

As music is your main priority,and if Emotiva doesn't tickle your fancy, the 990 is a very musical pre pro.
I made my deccission to purchase the 990 based on the 990's bass management feature for DVD-A/ SACD formats. Even though my DVD player aplies bass management the 990 does a much better job.All my multi channel music sounds so much better hrough the 990. On 2 channel it also sounds great, but it was the multi channel recordings that floored me.
If the Emotiva falls short don't hesitate trying the 990. I would think any pre pro will sound great through your JM lab speakers.

No charge from Outlaw - just download the update and go. Emotiva likewise wouldn't charge for firmware updates on the DMC-1 and MMC-1 (at least not if they want to keep their customer base), but the LMC-1 apparently will still require shipment back to Tennessee (with the owner paying shipping) for at least some firmware updates - see this thread for the ongoing LMC-1 saga.

If they both have 30 day return periods, why don't you face them off?

MMC owners could be hard to find because it only recently started shipping. Since the MMC/DMC are identical except HDMI switching vs balanced outputs, and remote, comments about the DMC would follow for the MMC.

I also think that because of the close relationship between Dan and Mark, AV123 will be the forum for Emotiva users for the time being.