I've search the forum and can't see if the following issue was discussed. I have the 990 and a Music Hall MMF-5 turntable with the standard Goldring cartridge. I have to turn the volume up to -20 for reasonable listening level. Would a separate phono preamp be in order? Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

Which model Goldring cartridge do you have?

1012GX

According the the Goldring web site that cartridge has an output of 6.5 mv. That falls within the range of most moving magnet cartridges. I believe my Shure V15VXMR has an output around 5 mv. I have not hooked up my turntable since getting my 990 in January so I have no idea where the volume settings would be. There's no room on the rack. I have to build a new one. If I find time to hook up the turntable temporarily somehow I'll report back to you on my findings.

Maybe gonk will find this thread and have a ready answer.

Thanks!

My system is devoid of any vinyl, so I've never actually tried out my 990's phono input. It's very possible that -20dB is a common level for listening to records, though - I often get into that range for DVD listening. Keep in mind that CD's (and TV broadcasts) tend to include a fair bit of extra gain (the old "louder is better" principle), while DVD went back to the old ways (which would include vinyl among other things) and lowered the gain to provide more dynamic headroom. DVD and vinyl will both probably need to be set to a higher volume than CD's and TV to achieve a comparable level.

Also, when you calibrated your 990, do you know what you ended up setting the trim to on your left and right channels? If they are set to a negative value, that's impacting phono playback as well in most cases (although analog bypass would skip the channel trim settings).

Update!
Curiosity took over so I quickly hooked up my T/T (setting it on the floor!). At -20db the volume levels were noticeably lower than most CD's and DVD's. I got curious and pulled out the dual trace 'scope and turned up the volume while watching for any clipping of the output waveform. It got pretty loud when I stopped. My vinyl is mostly stored away so I didn't try a test record. I think it's safe to say the volume differences aren't of any consequence.

BTW, although my main amp has more power output than yours that shouldn't make any difference in this case. I was looking for visible distortion in the 990 output waveform, not the amp output. I realize with music it can be very difficult to tell when amp saturation just begins. I had the volume up to -5 and it was plenty loud...the floor was moving. I wish I hadn't sold my last SoundTech 1700. I could be a lot more helpful with this. But I really believe you are okay cranking it up higher than -20.

Gonk - I ususally keep the mains at -13, so I have them pretty high.

I too have a turntable connected to my 990 (wouldn't have bought anything without a phono input) and have also noticed the lower volume level than CD or Tuner, though it's not lower than the levels for cassette play (Sony deck), DVDs, or HD television (Scientific Atlanta cable box). I've remarked on it here earlier and wished the 990's phono preamp had about 10db more gain. So I'd say your 990 is working normally, Woj. At 6.5 mv your Goldring's output is higher than most of the MM pickups I've heard of, so changing it for something else is not likely to make your LPs play louder.

Bobzoom - Just a little nervous cranking it up that high.

psyprof1 - Thanks. Wanted to make sure it wasn't my hearing. I was considering trying a stand alone phono preamp to see if I can get some improvement.

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I listened to The Wall (CD) late last night at -4. There's a decent amount of dynamic range with lots of very loud low frequency signal on this recording. I monitored the Tektronix on the loudest passages and there was no observed clipping. (for those interested, I marked the rail voltages of the mains amp on the scope so I would be able to see when I was approaching that point...it is difficult to tell how close you're getting with the Carver's high rail voltages, though) I then tried Dark Side of the Moon on vinyl, but because I was forced to place the T/T on the floor the bass vibration began causing tracking problems at -8. I was nowhere close to reaching rail voltages with the T/T.

I did realize something one final time. If I have the music on CD or DVD I will not even look for the vinyl. Love of music must be the reason we put up with all that surface noise, record cleaning, blasts from the anti-static gun and regular stylus replacement. It was like some religious ceremony every time we wanted to play some music. No wonder cassette became so popular. And truth be told, 192kbps mp3 blows the best cassette out of the water. And the entire mp3 player is smaller than one cassette! What's all this noise about the good old days? I lived through them. You younger folks didn't miss a thing.

As for live concert listening levels, it's like driving really fast. You get comfortable with it. Just don't over-rev the engine. And no need to watch for Smokey Bear. Ha!

Bobzoom - I like to convenience of CD; however, I sincerely think that true viny recordings are more defined especially on the 180 and 200 gram lp. At least for my ears that is. The hydrids, such as SACD and DVD-A are fantastic and listen to them as well.

You are right about lp's being a pain!

Thanks for the help.

I have an MMF-7 with the goldring Eroica cart. hooked to the 990. Based upon other preamps I have, the 990 seems to be at a much lower level. I'm generally at -10db to equal a CD level @ -20db. I haven't tried an external phono preamp with the 990 yet. But I have one on order for another system, so I'll give it a try. I susprect its just the 990 have about -10db less gain in the phono stage.

However, it does sound very good, just not as loud.

Woj, my "changing it for something else is not likely to make your LPs play louder" was about changing the cartridge, not installing a stand-alone phono preamp. If the preamp has a "line-level" output - which I guess you could find in the specs - I guess LPs played through it would sound just as loud as CDs: not having tried one I don't know for sure. For that matter it might outperform the 990's internal preamp in the quality department, since anything with high-end pretensions would probably cost upwards of 500 bucks. Way, way upwards in some cases. It would also occupy one of the 990's auxiliary inputs, which would be no problem if you don't have analog tape but might become one depending on your later acquisitions. How much is better sound from LPs worth to you is the question. Enjoy, regardless.

Forgive me if I missed this above.
Usually a phono input is at a higher level than "line-level" inputs. But from the thread I'm wondering if I can use the phono input to play from a CD player. I no longer use vinyl, so it would be nice. Thanks in advance.

I would not suggest it. It does have a higher amplification, and you would probably get distortion if nothing else putting something as high of an output as a CD player on a phono input.

I agree - the phono input is fed through a separate pre-amp that increases the signal significantly, and the signal from a source like a CD player is not what that section is intended to work with.

Thanks gonk & taylodr.
I thought that was the case, as it has been with preamps from the past. However in those preamps the RCA phono inputs usually had shorted plugs in them.
The 990, not having those shorted plugs, caused me to wonder. Thanks again.

One more reason not to use a phono input with ANY device that has a line-level (around one volt) output, if the 200-to-1 voltage mismatch isn't enough, is that phono preamps are equalized in conformity with the industry-standard RIAA disc recording curve, which greatly boosts treble and cuts bass, for vary valid reasons I won't go into here. The equalization applied by the phono preamp circuit corrects this to a flat output by (duh!) cutting the treble and boosting the bass. So the resulting sound from a line-level signal fed into a phono preamp circuit would be (1) distorted from monstrous overload, and (2) unlistenable, beyond the ability of any commercial equalizer to correct. That ought to be enough.